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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened
    #741881 - 07/12/02 03:56 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

We all exhibit "faith" to a certain degree. Those who have the most "faith" in whatever it is in they are faithful strike me as the most ignorant, and frightened, no matter what veils or robes they put on to hide it; hence, I must discard this theory and distance myself from it.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: Ulysees]
    #741920 - 07/12/02 04:09 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: Ulysees]
    #741929 - 07/12/02 04:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I agree that many people's faith is born only out of fear. They feel the need to believe that a higher power is watching over them and answering their prayers and guiding them through life. This lessens their fear of living in general. And the thought of a heaven lessens their fear of death.

In a way, this is not so bad really. For most people who have a faith such as this try their best to please their higher being so that they WILL end up in heaven and not hell. So it can lead to a lot of goodness on the earth.

Personally, I don't feel the need to have a particular religious faith at all. I am, however, a spritual person with my own spiritual beliefs. Spirituality, I think, is a lot different than faith. People are not spiritual because they are frightened of life or death, like many people who have faith are. They are spiritual simply for the purpose of expanding their mind and soul, and improving themself as a person. At least those are some of my reasons.


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Namaste.


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Anonymous

Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: Ulysees]
    #742115 - 07/12/02 05:12 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I understand. There are many classic examples that we could point to that would give evidence for you to discard what you think isn't important.

But know this; if a fool thinks that the sun will rise tomorrow his thoughts or actions have no bearing on the sun and if a thousand thousand fools think the same they have no bearing on it either.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/10/99
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Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: Ulysees]
    #742378 - 07/12/02 07:16 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Philosophically taken, faith is a mode or way of apprehending Reality. It is a contemplative attitude, which fosters compassionate action. Faith may be fed from the fountains of reason and intuition, as well as from historical fact, but faith transcends these streams. The fruits of one's actions are determined by the chosen Object of one's faith.

Therefore, it is necessary first to realize what faith is before one can apply it to the Ultimate Object of one's choice. As an entire mode of apprehension of Reality, there is no logic in rejecting faith. That would be like rejecting any other intrinsically helpful and useful 'instrument for frivolous reasons. Most people have faith in their sense data and the rational mind. Others have been gifted with faith in psychic and intuitive realities. The highest level of faith derives from the Transcendental Source. It is a gift from That Source, but a gift that can be sought for and received by a sincere heart. There is nothing more transforming, except love.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #742840 - 07/12/02 10:40 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

There is a quote that come to mind from the Bible. I don't have it handy so the wording will not be exact. It is where Jesus says that if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can tell the mountain to move and it must. Even though it is symbolic, I have never seen any power in faith. Not one Christian has ever walked on water to my knowledge.

I see no purpose to faith. From the secular faith in our government and capitalist system, from which executives utilize by bilking billions from shareholders (WCOM, DYN, et al), to the faith that Catholic priests can be trusted with kids.

How many people have faith when walking through the crime-ridden part of town at night (perhaps your car broke down)? In my experience, religous people are just as fearful as agnostics.

A mother's faith and prayers that her sick child will get well does nothing for the child. Have never seen an extraordinary healing.

Have you been around dying people? I have. People with faith cry "Why me?" just like us cynics. No difference.

Faith in hard work? LOL!

True love? You must be joking!

I am only cynical because everything that I have ever had faith in has turned out to be a total sham.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
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Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: Swami]
    #742885 - 07/12/02 11:04 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Swami: As to what faith means let me tell you what it doesn't mean. It doesn't mean that we aren't human and therefore have human fears. Because I believe in Jesus doesn't mean I won't fear that dark alley you're talking about. It doesn't mean that God will intervene in everday life to protect that child from aids or that grandma from getting hit by a truck. God never claimed to take away all our fears and problems. The fear that is erradicated by faith is that I know I am not going to hell. That is the ultimate fear. As to you not believing in faith because you have never seen it....does that mean it isn't so? Maybe you weren't looking, maybe you were unaware, maybe you chose not to see it, maybe God chose to be discrete. I promise you have never seen Pluto but you probably believe it exists. I hope you find happiness in whatever you choose to believe in.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: Swami]
    #742935 - 07/12/02 11:45 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: World Spirit]
    #743232 - 07/13/02 08:03 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The Bible tells us that the human body is a holy temple for the spirit and should be cared for. Go to ANY church or temple and look at the obese people sitting in the pews. Nobody even believes what they believe in.


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (07/13/02 01:15 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: Swami]
    #743299 - 07/13/02 09:10 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

well, i'm sure somebody might believe what they belive in, Swami. i don't believe that Jesus Christ was the son of any God or god or Jaweh or even an alien experiment placed on earth to throw the world into 2000 years of spiritual confusion. i think a distinction can be made between induction and faith. induction tells me that if i go to sleep i will probably wake up and what goes up will probably come down. faith, on the other hand, is a desire to believe. i think a better question than "is faith valid?" would be "why do i have faith?" i think the general answer to this question is "i just have it. you have to have it to know." which is, of course, no answer at all. i think most everyone has faith, belief in something that they can't prove. some people are simply not so easily convinced. i believe pluto exists because i have faith that all the astronomers and the scientific community in general would not form an elaborate conspiracy to convince me that a cold desolate rock rotates at the periphery of our solar system. it seems rational to believe that Pluto exists, given the facts. i don't believe that Jesus is God, or the son of God because there aren't enough supporting facts to convince me and it seems probable that people proseltyzing such a believe may well be motivated by more than a search for truth. i'm not saying scientists are always right. i'm saying that they do thier best to prove things using testable facts and reason. christians generally avoid reason if they can convince someone with a pitiful story.


Edited by Anonymous (07/13/02 09:12 AM)


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: ]
    #743545 - 07/13/02 12:12 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I have faith in my probability matrix. But it's not a rock-solid faith because my matrix lets me down... but I'm comfortable with that. My God is uncertainty and confusion. I worship daily.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: Sclorch]
    #743632 - 07/13/02 01:21 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

...my matrix lets me down...

For all those out of the loop, matrix is a contracted slang word for Dominatrix.

Wanted: Matrix seeks philosophical Florida white boy for fun & games.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
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Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: Ulysees]
    #743661 - 07/13/02 01:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I totally agree that some people's faith is born out of fear of being lonely and the dread of hopelessness. However, you are generalizing that everyone who exhibits faith is scared and ignorant...do you know EVERYONE?

Stereotyping and generalization will only lead you into thoughtlessness. I am not trying to slam you at all, please believe me I really am not, but my point is...if you generalize and stereotype than you won't be waiting to get to know people before you judge them and this is the path that Hitler and the Nazis went down.

You are also saying that "Those who have the most "faith" in whatever it is in they are faithful strike me as the most ignorant, and frightened". So you are saying that believing in ANYTHING with conviction is a sign of ignorance and fear? Hummm...you floated this idea out to the entire Shroomery board knowing that it would get rebuttles...you seem to have put a lot of faith into this idea...I am not slamming you, do you see my point?

I think any form of strong opinion is having faith in that opinion, however I would encourage everyone to not get dead set so that if you ever, for any reason, feel a real need to change your mind, you can.

Ulysees I respect your thoughts, but i must respectfully disagree friend.


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Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Offlinefrancisco
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Registered: 01/15/02
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Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: Ulysees]
    #751162 - 07/16/02 04:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Faith is fear of the unknown.


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Well...Maybe just a little.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
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Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: francisco]
    #752039 - 07/16/02 09:47 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Faith is fear of the unknown.

Indeed.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlineerectronik
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Registered: 03/13/02
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Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: Sclorch]
    #752317 - 07/17/02 01:09 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"Faith" in the sun rising every 24 hours.
"Faith" in water boiling at 100 degrees celcius.
"Faith" that my parents will not be struck by lightning.
None of that is faith because faith is active - a conclusion of sorts. These are beliefs created and reinforced by sensory experience. They go away, change, and/or reappear, according to events that are touched, seen, heard, smelled, and tasted.

Faith in god's control over the Universe.
Faith in the existence of intelligent beings from another world.
Faith that devious entities are in fact acting in the government.
These have never been sensed by anyone in the way the above have, requiring even more bulky doubt before being swallowed along with the necessary glass of faith water.

If you feel that you "sense" God "inside you", or "out there", that's fine, I believe you do, but don't tell me, based on your subjective experience, that God is as certain to exist as water is to boil at 100 degrees celcius, because I will say you are confused and frightened.

Faith is for those unaware that they are afraid to be alone. For social beings like us, the concept of being alone IS the unknown.

Human beings have a mental life filled with people - we talk to ourselves, we play out scenarios and conversations in our daydreams. Banish someone on a desert island and they will create "friends", they will talk more and more to themselves to fill the void. We are never "alone". The concept of perfect solitude is frightening, and is perhaps the foundation of all fears. (I've always thought a better hell would be absolute lonliness than burning torment, because with the latter, at least you could turn over to the guy next to you and say, "SHIT!", with the confidence that he'll appreciate your suffering.)

I, too, am afraid of lonliness, but I realize it and do not let it determine my beliefs.


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"Hallucinogens can be like talking to a really talented salesman: beware of what you can sell yourself." - J.L.C.


Edited by erectronik (07/17/02 01:20 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: erectronik]
    #752552 - 07/17/02 06:59 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Well stated.


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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
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Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: ]
    #752662 - 07/17/02 08:00 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

alan w watts:
give us this day our daily faith
but deliver us from our beliefs


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Offlinecantankerous
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Registered: 04/05/02
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Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: Ulysees]
    #752737 - 07/17/02 08:36 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I almost always stay away from this forum but.... we could sit and argue about god or no god all day but get nowhere. i am a scientist so i take in data and make conclusions. we can make judegements ( at least slight ones) on specific religions from the small data we have. i study christianity for fun out of amazement mostly. so all those who follow this faith should study it also THEN draw conclusions. I am not talking just the bible! read Crossan, Pagals, Luther, etc... then make an informed decision. you will find many of these people ( Crossan esp. ) consider themselves Christian and prolley have very different beliefs than you and are MUCH more studied on the subject. knowledge is power! by the by i am not religous.


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peace,
beatle

"Friday is my high day"


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Faith is for the ignorant and the frightened [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #757897 - 07/19/02 12:47 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

We all exhibit "faith" to a certain degree. Those who have the most "faith" in whatever it is in they are faithful strike me as the most ignorant, and frightened, no matter what veils or robes they put on to hide it; hence, I must discard this theory and distance myself from it.




Here's the interesting thing about all this...
When I said that I needed to discard the theory (the section in bold), I was actually refering to the theory that preceeded it. ie: I had put faith into the theory that I had just created, but seeing as how that signifies fear or ignorance, I had to distance myself from that theory. Basically, the theory was supposed to nullify itself.

I don't think this was clear to many, but it lead to some interesting discussion that I didn't want to stifle.

In reply to:

You are also saying that "Those who have the most "faith" in whatever it is in they are faithful strike me as the most ignorant, and frightened". So you are saying that believing in ANYTHING with conviction is a sign of ignorance and fear? Hummm...you floated this idea out to the entire Shroomery board knowing that it would get rebuttles...you seem to have put a lot of faith into this idea...I am not slamming you, do you see my point?




Shroomalicious nailed it there!

So ya, I still believe that people who put an abundance of faith into an idea do so only to mask their fear from themselves, to feel like they know what's happening, even if they don't really "know"; but I see that we all do it, etc etc, there's no getting around it. I think it's best to spread your faith out as much as you can though, so as not to put all your proverbial eggs in one basket.

Thanks for the great responses by all.


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