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Anonymous

Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Frog]
    #2561618 - 04/15/04 12:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

i said it was a matter of perspective in the first place on the first page, coulda ended the shit back then, lol, isnt it sad it came to the hairy leg picture, frog?  :rolleyes:  geez


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ]
    #2561625 - 04/15/04 12:47 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

To you, Kotton!



:lol:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ]
    #2561682 - 04/15/04 01:13 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Threads, like life, have a beginning and ending.

Suzuki


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ]
    #2562433 - 04/15/04 07:03 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Ja, of course everything is an issue of perspective. There are logical perspectives and narrow perspectives and Enlightened perspectives and completely ignorant perspectives.

So..... do we acknowledge the difference in perspectives relating to a subject and just leave it at that... do we try to find the "correct" perspective? Do we keep the perspective that makes us feel all warm inside? Do we seek a completely seperate perspective from reality or do we seek one that completely embraces reality?

So of course, we acknowledge that the difference in opinions on this subject are coming from different perspectives..... that is the first step, that doesn't "solve" or get to the true nature of this subject.

So..... where do we go from here? :laugh:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Anonymous

Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2562518 - 04/15/04 08:07 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

u can either think u are some dumbass robot programmed to do specific things in this life, or you can realize you have real choices and take responsibility for your time here.

we have free will. u can change your values at anytime, they are not set in stone. and the law and society have nothing to do with restricting/limiting your free will, you choose to let it, but you must deal with the consequence, as we live in a society with ignorant MAN-MADE rules. life is what you make it.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2562543 - 04/15/04 08:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So..... do we acknowledge the difference in perspectives relating to a subject and just leave it at that... do we try to find the "correct" perspective?

We ought to keep in mind, this is not a new subject. This has been debated, discussed, dissected, and pondered far longer than we've been alive for. The whole entire reason no true absolute and definitive answer has taken foot, is entirely because it is all relative to one's perspectives, one's reality, and so on.

Do we seek a completely seperate perspective from reality or do we seek one that completely embraces reality?

Again, it is important to keep in mind, what one's perspective of reality is, isn't going to be everybody's perspective of reality. Hence, it becomes an essentially fruitless endeavor for one to argue with those who have different realities and perspectives. And nor can one necessarilly say that their perspectives and realities are any more valid and correct than what other entities' perspectives and realities are in this debate of Free-will, and vice versa.

So of course, we acknowledge that the difference in opinions on this subject are coming from different perspectives..... that is the first step, that doesn't "solve" or get to the true nature of this subject.

Either there is free will or there isn't--it depends on what perspective one chooses. People on both sides of the debate have already explained their premises and perspectives of what mechanics drive the force of their perspectives and arguments; and the primary difference between the two sides of this great debate is one thing--perspective. There's two primary ways to look at this subject--although one side has the majority perspective, neither side can necessarilly be absolutely proven to be wrong by evidence, or otherwise.

This is reminiscent of two fleas arguing about who owned a dog..

It will always boil down to one thing: Perspective.

The most logical and sensible thing to do is to simply acknowledge the fact that this is a matter of perspective, and everybody has different perspectives, and just leave it at that..

~The End~




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2562629 - 04/15/04 09:24 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
We ought to keep in mind, this is not a new subject. This has been debated, discussed, dissected, and pondered far longer than we've been alive for. The whole entire reason no true absolute and definitive answer has taken foot, is entirely because it is all relative to one's perspectives, one's reality, and so on.




This is true, it is definitely not a new subject. And I do agree that it still hasn't been remotely settled is that their are differences in perspective.

Quote:


Hence, it becomes an essentially fruitless endeavor for one to argue with those who have different realities and perspectives. And nor can one necessarilly say that their perspectives and realities are any more valid and correct than what other entities' perspectives and realities are in this debate of Free-will, and vice versa.




This is what I disagree with. I don't see it as fruitless, and I do see it more as a debate, an exchange of ideas. I do agree that no one can necessarily say that their perspective is more valid and correct, which is also why I don't understand how someone can ask for proof, and which is also why I brought up perspective in the first place. :wink:

I don't consider it a fruitless endeavor, however, because this is a nexus of interacting ideas and perspectives. When people with different perspectives and thoughts on the same subject come together and start to debate and exchange, it allows one to better formulate their stance on the issue, new ideas can be developed when old ideas are seen in a new light, people who have not really contemplated on the matter are given an oppurtunity to see what others think and can begin seeking for themselves.... this is a perfect medium for advancing understanding because in order to present your ideas to others for them to understand, you yourself must run the ideas through your mind again.

I also don't think that because the subject is something that we haven't been able to come to a universal understanding on, doesn't mean we should accept the differences in our perspectives and close the book on it. I think it gives us a reason to debate and work our way to fully understanding the subject and coming to a unified perspective on it.

The main point you are making is a very essential one. We must all remember that this is quite the subject we are discussing, and that everyone has their perspective and we should be working to narrow the gap between these perspectives, not set our perspectives in stone and then throw shit at each other. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2562695 - 04/15/04 09:59 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

What was being pointed out when "..An essentially fruitless endeavor.." was mentioned; is that ultimately, there will always remain multiple sides to this great debate, because there will always be different perspectives, and that will never change. There are no doubts that new ideas, thoughts, exchanges and other mental pleasantries indeed can fruit from this debate, yet none of which has changed the ultimatum.

I also don't think that because the subject is something that we haven't been able to come to a universal understanding on, doesn't mean we should accept the differences in our perspectives and close the book on it. I think it gives us a reason to debate and work our way to fully understanding the subject and coming to a unified perspective on it.

It is reasonable to assume that many would like a 'Unified Perspective' on many things; the primary obstacle standing in the way of such entertaining ideas is the fact that there will always be different people, different minds, and different perspectives no matter what.
Therefore the most reasonable and commonsensical notion from one perspective is accept the differences in beliefs, and allow one to find their own truths, and share or debate their beliefs as they wish.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ]
    #2564210 - 04/15/04 04:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

u can change your values at anytime, they are not set in stone

Go to the P&L forum, look around and report back.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2564217 - 04/15/04 04:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Do I have the free will to no longer believe in free will?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Swami]
    #2564438 - 04/15/04 05:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"Where there's a will, there's a way..."

:wink:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Anonymous

Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Swami]
    #2565169 - 04/15/04 08:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Go to the P&L forum, look around and report back




why.


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OfflineAbrahamLincoln
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2565568 - 04/15/04 09:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

In response to the original poster; of course there is no free will, but you don't need all that "fluff" logic to explain it. All you need to say is that since everything in existence has a cause, then everything which is, was, or ever will be is caused by the creation of the universe, however that came about. Any choice or thought you have is caused by your genes combined with your past experiences and a few other factors. All of those things had causes too, and thus, every choice or thought any creature in the universe could ever have was set in stone at the begining of time.

Your statements on randomness are incorrect, randomness does not even exist. The outcome of a coin flip, or any other "random" event could be known before it actually occured, so long as all factors affecting the coin were known, such as gravity, velocity, angle, speed of rotation, other particles impacting the surface of the coin like air, radiation, etc. And yes that does mean it would be possible to see the future of any event, if somehow it were possible to track every single atom in the universe without affecting them. Too bad that will never be possible, because any method by which you could "read" or "track" an atom would, if only slightly, alter its course.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: AbrahamLincoln]
    #2566196 - 04/16/04 01:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Wow.  Don't understand this thread any more, either.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineOOISI
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: Frog]
    #2566615 - 04/16/04 05:52 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Heres my oppinon , kept simple.

God bestowed life upon us, existence such a wonderous thing.
But certain people were not satisfied with existence and had
to absorb out freedom because others could enjoy life and
they couldnt so they decided so they got upset and decided
if they cannot obtain happiness no one shall. And this present
day is the result of this.

But they cannot absorb all free will so there are still remnants of
freedom which we still have. We can move, we can think etc

So yeah part of free will has been taken away from us but they can never fully regulate everyones presense at the same time.


--------------------
Subaeruginosa Guide

Bless the Lord, O my soul O my soul Worship His holy name.


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Anonymous

Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: OOISI]
    #2566955 - 04/16/04 09:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

how did they take freedom? your talking about laws being created, right?

well, if so, what was to be done about people killing and stealing and not giving a shit about it? some souls were totally consumed by ego and forgetting whats important to them, to have created laws, which did restrict free will, seemed to be the only way to control the madness. but god didnt take away the free will, it is still there, but with obstacles to evade due to consequences of your actions. Ex: you can smoke weed all u want, god dont care. but the law we live under MADE BY HUMANS says it is illegal and if your caught your ass gets slapped with probation, some fines, and maybe jail time.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: AbrahamLincoln]
    #2567060 - 04/16/04 10:57 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

AbrahamLincoln said:
every choice or thought any creature in the universe could ever have was set in stone at the begining of time.




'Bout time you joined us, Abraham. We were talking about you somewhere else, I think.

Would you mind explaining that sentence?

Quote:

Your statements on randomness are incorrect, randomness does not even exist. The outcome of a coin flip, or any other "random" event could be known before it actually occured, so long as all factors affecting the coin were known, such as gravity, velocity, angle, speed of rotation, other particles impacting the surface of the coin like air, radiation, etc. And yes that does mean it would be possible to see the future of any event, if somehow it were possible to track every single atom in the universe without affecting them. Too bad that will never be possible, because any method by which you could "read" or "track" an atom would, if only slightly, alter its course.




I agree with what you say about coin tosses, except that you couldn't predict each coin toss before that specific toss. You only have a 50/50 prediction. Unless you are psychic, you don't know whether it will be heads of tails on each particular toss. You only know at the beginning of all the tosses that probably 1/2 will come up heads, and 1/2 will come up tails.

So no, I don't think you can predict the future. You can give an estimate, but you can't predict with certainty how the life of each individual will come out.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Frog]
    #2576846 - 04/19/04 08:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

we are just cogs in one big coin flipping machine. All we can do is flip the coin because must, and observe the outcome, because we must. Every result of the coin toss observed is a result of the sum total of all the coin tosses before it. Even our flipping was caused to happen by the previous flipping, and the out come of that flip.

Not unlike collapsing wave functions, thus bringing one possibility into being, to bad we dont have any real choice in which way the wave function collapses, since it was the outcome of all the other collapsed wave functions that led to us collapsing this wave function. But all those other virtual possibilities have been shown to be equally real, just not observed... so what does that mean?


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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2578019 - 04/19/04 03:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Heya  :smile:

If you think in terms of time your perceptions will be too limited. Time is 'just' an order, although a rigid one.

I want to stress that by my arguments in previous threads on free will, I never wanted to imply that the future was predetermined. I said that the boundaries of the infinite are not defined. I also said that creation is a non-local, non-linear system. There are no place to stand from which you would determine the outcome of such a system. To understand the system is also a part of the system. The system is only complete unto itself. Non-locality also implies that the past is determined by the future as well, and that time is by no means a steady flow from A to B.
Time has its place and its limited operational domain, as has all orders.


I find patterns appealing. Patterns are excellent philosophical tools. I have made points earlier on how everything (physics, time, thougth, etc.) can be described in terms of patterns as part of an order.

Patterns need an ether in which to spread, however. This ether would be of a much more primary status than the patterns themselves (As the ocean is more primary than waves at the surface of it).

Maybe this ocean is the sea of consciousness. This is the primary ether, or God if you will. All other manifistations in the universe could not excist without moving through this ether. The patterns are a way for pure consciousness to express itself. The more consciousness expresses itself, the more it knows of itself. We are the eyes of God, looking him right back in the face, so to speak.

The pattern-world of waves and whirls is always causal, that is, patterns are continuos. No abrupt brakes is possible.

But in the sea of consciousness which has no self-reference something truly new can emerge (as the equation 0=0 contains all possible equations). What happens is that when the sea of consciousness acts on the pattern-world, it does not "place" a pattern into the pool. It *plays* the patterns in the pool :cool:. There is no brake in causality, but true creativity emerges nevertheless.

This fits into common experiences with creativity. The truly creative moments is when you lose your sense of self. When you act from your ether-aspect instead of your pattern-aspect (the very nature of the pattern-aspect is self-referential. Pattern=ego?). Then the patterns you thought were so rigid, bends softly to your mind and you ride the wave of creation.

If such a thing as a free choice excist, I would rather label it a  creative choice, to separate it from the discussion of whether or not it is I who choose to raise my hand etc.


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2578312 - 04/19/04 04:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ZenGecko said:
we are just cogs in one big coin flipping machine. All we can do is flip the coin because must, and observe the outcome, because we must. Every result of the coin toss observed is a result of the sum total of all the coin tosses before it. Even our flipping was caused to happen by the previous flipping, and the out come of that flip.





Zen, I don't think this is a good analogy. No coin toss is dependent on any previous coin toss. The outcome of each toss of a coin is independent of any other coin toss, and the outcome of heads or tails is always 1/2.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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