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OfflineZenGecko
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Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;)
    #2550329 - 04/12/04 05:52 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Hi everyone, some of u may remember me from such threads, as all the big questions answered, free will, is it bs?, and others. havent been here in months thought i'd drop in and say hello. Also i'd like if possible for someone to find a flaw in this logic....

If freedom is that which is with out restraint, and will is the ability to act, then free will is the ability to act with out restraint right? but we all know that there are limits to what we can do, i cant fly, or shoot fireballs from my finger tips at will. So how can there be such a thing as limited freedom? isnt that an oxymoron, nonsequetor, contradiction?
    Free will as most of us think of it would be the ability to make a "choice" that is not caused by something, if it was caused by something then it would just be the effect of the cause and not a free choice.
Ok, so maybe you'd argue we are the cause? but what caused us to be the cause, us being the cause must be the effect of a prior cause, if not then it was just random.
So in order for a choice to be free, it can have no cause, and there could be no limit on what we could "choose", but then at best we are left with a randomn choice, or more accurately a random event. Actually maybe spontanious is a more accurate word, rather then random, but then again what is the mechanism that allows this, how can anything actually be spontanious? maybe that is just another one of our conceptions based on what seems to be, but what really isnt.
    But anyways u cannot will randomness, or spontinaity, if u could you would be able to predict the outcome, but the inability to do so is the very definition of randomness. And with spontinatity u cant even predict when it will occur.
So randomness isnt free will,and neither is a spontaneous event cause u cant will either. at best u can take a guess, or push the odds to favor one outcome over another, but can never be certain of what will be...till it is. and if something causes u to make a "choice" or take an action, then it isnt really a free choice, because it was caused. Even if u were influenced at all by something, then that something would have limited your freedom, and limited freedom is nonsense, how can that which is free be limited? so then what mystical mechanism, allows us to have the "free will" that many of us believe we have, infact our whole lives are built on this assumption. my answer? none, there is no free will because in order for there to be so, i would have to take action without cause, yet somehow have that action not be random, or even spontanious,  yet be able to predict perfectly the outcome of my action, because if there was any chance that my will would not be done exactly as i intended then i really had no control, no unrestricted will,because like limited freedom, limited control makes no sense either, both are conceptions we use everyday, but in actuality have no basis in reality, just appearent reality.
    So how then do we have free will? i can not find a shred of evidence for its existence, yet it is generally accepted that each person has it. Causes may be subtle, or come together in a myriad of ways to form one ultimate cause that percipitates an effect, and we may not always be aware of them, or how they came about, but they are always there, every cause has an effect, every effect is also a cause that inturn has another effect ect..so on and on... if there is no cause then how did the event occur?
    if it was random how did we have any say in what occured? so how do we have free will? how can there be something between determinism and randomness? if there is, what is it? how did it come to be?
any  ideas?
my opinion is ofcourse, there is none, no choice, and no freedom, and no control. They are conceptions based on the appearant reality, but have no actual basis in fact, or logic for that matter. if your up on your quantum physics then u  know the world we see, is very different from the way things actually are. The only conclusion i can draw from the evidence and logic is that, in fact the only thing that is certain is that everything is uncertain. At best we can only hope that we will be lucky in how things unfold and be ok with the uncertain, but whether we wish that, and whether we can be ok with it all, is itself not up to us, we either will be caused to be one way or the other or will randomly be assigned our opinion, or beliefs. if u believe in free will now, u do so because all the circumstances, evironment, genetics, every quantum event that has occured since the begining of time makes you believe that you can believe anything u want, do anything u want, but that doesnt make it all true. it just means u cant help but be deluded, it means u cant help but be exactly what u are or where u are, at this moment, or any other.
    So any flaws in my arguement that you can prove logically?
Oh and if your tempted to invoke god, then consider this...
How can god effect the system (us, the universe ect..) without the system inturn effecting god? say god makes a choice in regard to the system, and implements it. wouldnt there be some effect of that choice/action not only on the system but god also? wouldnt god be pleased or displeased with the outcome? that would be an effect. God would in a sense be caused by the system to be please or whatever, or to take another action based on the effects of the previous action. God set rules for the system, if the rules are broken then the system cannot function as it was originally intended, so the actions god could take would be limited by the rules that god had previously put into effect, assuming god still wanted the system to function by the same rules. And wouldnt gods desire in that respect, one way or the other, be determined by how the system had previously functioned, such as whether or not it had pleased god? So it seems that even god doesnt have free will because there are limits on what god can do, assuming god wants to maintain the basic rules he initially put into place.
  But even that desire or lack of, would have to be caused by the previous performance of his creation. every one of gods actions will have an effect not only on the system, but on god, and will shape the next set of circumstances god finds himself in. which will inturn determine god's next choice, or more accurately action. Even for god the circumstances limit the possibilities, and gods desire counts as a circumstance, and that circumstance was caused by prior circumstances. So like you, even what god wants really isnt up to god, its determined by circumstance.
God cannot be outside the system and still effect the system, because God and gods interaction with the system, is itself another system.
  The only other possiblity i see is that there are no "moments" no "time" there is no cause and effect, no action and reaction. No choices. Everything just is. It always has been, and always will be, And what we precieve  to be time and motion, cause and effect is itself like choice, and freedom, conceptions based on our inability to see things as they actually are, to see the system at once as a whole. Even the term conception is just another conception, if that makes any sense.
  None of this is real, except in the same sense as a lie is true or as good as true to the person who believes it.
    Also responses like, if we didnt have free will everyone would just sit and watch tv till they were dead, or if we didnt have it then we couldnt be held responsible for our actions...Are not actual arguements against the logic, or possibility, they are just possible implications.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be.

Sorry this is so long but its important to me, and important to be as percise and all inclusive as possible, though really i could have tied this all in with a bunch of other stuff, but i'll spare you...this time :wink: Thank you if you read this all, and especially if you posted a thoughtful and thought out reply.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2550386 - 04/12/04 06:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Hey man, welcome back! I was going through some of my old threads the other day and found some of your posts, and was wondering where you went. We had a really good free will thread not too long back, I'll dig up the link in just a second.

I'm with you. Everything has a cause. It is impossible for us to be free from cause and effect.

A lot of people argue that they have free will because they can make choices that aren't forced by the external situations, that THAT is free will. That might be true, but it isn't free will. When dealing with this, there is the external world, and the internal world of the mind, and they are continously interacting.

There is the cause and effect chain in the external world and there is the cause and effect chain in the internal world, and the internal world (the mind) in whole is an effect of the external world, and the external world is effected by the internal world. There is an intricate interplay here every second. The day cause and effect lead to humans with our complex thought processes is the day cause and effect became so much more potent.

Most arguements for free will that I have seen come about from a misunderstanding of cause and effect. I've never had one thought that was free from cause and effect, it all follows a pattern. When dealing with the mind we see how amazingly complex it is and just how much of a higher order it has... and cause and effect is forever there.

Of course this completely allows for the experience of free choice and doesn't take any power away from living our life as we wish. Some proclaim "I made a choice! I have free will!", as if it is suspossed to prove that it truly exists. These are the same people who dismiss people as delusional when they claim they have heard voices from God and he told them to do a list of things....  :rolleyes: What we experience is proven real by the fact that we experience it, this person's experiences are not real because he is delusional, and the advances in science that one usually praises, which has really shown how cause and effect work, in this one instance are meaningless? Hhhm.....

We know we can be certain that we experience free will. The fact remains that we are within and a part of a system that is playing itself out. We came to be from the system and we are interacting with the system in every single moment. The system is being carried out through us, and the fact that we have developed these complex thought processes and have an individual perspective are intriguing. As the system rolls out, does it create something that can actually become conscious of the system and knowingly take the system further and further? :grin:

But I'm entirely willing to take any examples of free will free of cause and effect and point out how cause and effect is actually there. :lol:

Here is the  link for the page I was telling you about. It is long but worth the read, I really developed my understanding through it. The Visionairre and Ped's posts I found very interesting as well.  :wink:

:headbang:
Peace.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Anonymous

Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2550389 - 04/12/04 06:46 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

its a really deep subject isnt it man, i will just say i believe we have free will. I had the choice to reply, or not to reply, and i chose to reply, my choice and no one elses. i was not held at gun point. that is a human perspective on it, being ignorant of the big picture.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2550408 - 04/12/04 07:11 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Oh, yay. Another Free will thread.

The sad thing is, if you truly believe you dont have free will and have no ability to choose, and are nothing but a sailboat in the ocean with nothing but the winds of cause and effect blowing you away, without you controlling the sails; then that's what you will get.


I believe in taking responsibility and control for my own life; Free will, baby.


Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to adjust my sails... :wink:



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Registered: 06/16/02
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: ]
    #2550467 - 04/12/04 08:37 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I had the choice to reply, or not to reply, and i chose to reply, my choice and no one elses. i was not held at gun point.



but what went on in your head that made you 'choose' to reply (e.g. what was the driving force behind this initial 'descision' to hit that quick reply button and write you felt needed to be said) and more importantly then that - what chain of events in your life molded your thought process in such a way to where you felt compelled to reply to a question like this...what sort of experiences have you had that have that lead up to the mind set you're at now (and how did those events initially come into play)

dissect the hell out of this and keep following the paper trail back as far as you possibly can...you might be surprised at where you end up


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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Anonymous

Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #2550497 - 04/12/04 09:03 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

lol, no im not surprised. Its just the perspective you choose to have, you can see it as yes there is free will or you can see it as no there is not free will. But IMHO....there is most definitely free will. Nothing is set in stone, and things are more complex than you may realize now.

if we didnt have free will, then there would be absolutely no reason for us to be in bodies. Its all about choices, and in the end the only thing that is going to matter is the love that we had shown, for ourselves and for others and everything else. All is a test of our love, we are all on differnt paths, so different challenges, which are all the best for the each of us.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: ]
    #2550698 - 04/12/04 11:20 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

nothing MADE him choose to reply, the entire process led to the point at which his conscious mind got to decide.

i'm big on the idea that there is constant chaos accessible, all you have to do is not think.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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Anonymous

Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2550755 - 04/12/04 11:46 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

i totally understand what they are saying though....because if things had happened a lil differently, i may not have chosen to reply, but even then i had free will to not reply. But i think that they are focusing their perspective on that time doesnt exsist, so no matter what choice we make, it was already known and chosen already and no possible way to choose other than what is meant to be, thus not being able to have free will, because you cant, no matter what, choose other than what is just meant to be. but things get complex for the human mind, the understanding just isnt there. we have free will, dont take my word for it, do yoru own soul searching. trying to get to the bottom of this thinking logically will make your head explode and u will never get the truth. for stuff like this you need to look within, fuck the ego.


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Offlineconscious
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2550771 - 04/12/04 11:53 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

ZenGecko: I know that tomorrow you will wake up in the morning. Did I just negate your free will simply because I have knowledge of your future actions? Nope... and simply because Yhwh knows all does not mean He denied you free will.


--------------------
Acid absorbs 47 times its weight in excess reality.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2551000 - 04/12/04 01:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What about a white child brought up in the 1930s in a family of KKKers? Can he choose to be a racist or not? Not really, until or unless some powerful life event overrides his programming.

Can he put on his left jackboot first or his right? Who cares! Most of his "real" choices are already decided by environment and circumstance.

How many old people are hip-hop fans?

How many young people are Sinatra fans?

Why wouldn't the mix be around 50-50? You believe that you are making a decision as to what music you like, but this is an illusion.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2551074 - 04/12/04 01:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Okay, so there is no such thing as "pure" free will. This is just arguing semantics, imo.

There is no absolute, pure, free will. We have free will, but all within the parameters of our past, which has produced our present, which limits the opportunities and choices available to us.

Plus, living in society limits our free will. If we're hungry, we can't walk into a grocery store and take an apple and walk out.

But we DO have a certain amount of free will. I can leave California and quit law and go be a waitress in some hick town if I want. I can stop working right now, in the middle of the morning (as I am doing by writing this!), and go to the beach. I have free will to do almost anything, within the parameters of my past and present. It's the exercise of my free will within those parameters that creates my future, again creating new parameters.

But I still have free will to do "almost" anything I want, within certain confines. Just semantics.

And I'm really glad there's a new free will thread, too! Woo hoo!


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2551107 - 04/12/04 01:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Oh, yay. Another Free will thread.

The sad thing is, if you truly believe you dont have free will and have no ability to choose, and are nothing but a sailboat in the ocean with nothing but the winds of cause and effect blowing you away, without you controlling the sails; then that's what you will get.


I believe in taking responsibility and control for my own life; Free will, baby.


Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to adjust my sails... :wink:






Go you, Skorpivo! 

Here's another analogy:

Quote:

Baron Paul Henri d Holbach (1723-1789) (a hard determinist) compared humans on the earth to the fly in an ancient fable:

? ?The fly in a fable?: D?Holbach tells the story of the fly, who alights on a large carriage (coach) being pulled by horses. The fly begins to think that it (the fly) is determining where the carriage will go.

o Humans on the earth are comparable to the fly, according to d?Holbach

? Both (fly and human) think they are free, but they are not free? because there are forces that determine what they do.




I so disagree!

I like your sail boat analogy.  I have set the course for my own life, and all I need to do is adjust the sails from time to time.  I'm in "almost" complete control.  If I'm not, who is?

I like this, too:

Fate v. Free Will
1996, 2002 Curtis Manwaring

Quote:

We have all heard the phrase "The stars impel, but do not compel". I should digress a bit and tell you that "free will" is an oxymoron. For this reason I prefer the term free choice. If you think about it, the will is not really free, but is a source of determination. If it could not be a source of determination then it would not be a will at all. Bonatti in his treatise Liber Astronimae, book I, spoke of the church's objections to astrology and framed the issue of choice within a process which varies over time. He said then that initially we have to choose, then it becomes our direction of will and we become determined depending upon how strong we intend it. For instance, before marriage we choose, afterwards, it has been decided, and fate has taken over because some of the possibilities have been borne off from it. This is not an all or nothing proposition in my opinion. Having said this, I do believe that much of the time we are subject to the whims of competing interests and it often looks as though the strongest interest wins. The point is that some of this determination appears to come from outside and some comes from within. However, we do not have absolute free will. If you think you have absolute free will, try forcing the Sun to stop moving across the sky. I should point out that most of us would not want absolute free choice. It leads to infinite possibilities and infinite complications as well as no inherent destination in life. A famous aphorism of Rob Hand's is: 'Pretium arbitrii liberi est nullam destinationem habere' which means: 'the price of free will is having no destiny'.




--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Frog]
    #2551148 - 04/12/04 01:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I can stop working right now, in the middle of the morning (as I am doing by writing this!), and go to the beach.

*sigh* Another illusion. You are free to talk about it, but you will NEVER walk out in the middle of a trial, 'Your honor, I have to go work on my tan.' You need to make your house payment and take care of your kids. How many people have risked their job (not just take a sick day) to go to the beach even though they REALLY, REALLY want to?

No, they will go to work and bitch about wanting to be someplace else. Ah, the fresh sea breeze of "free will"...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Frog]
    #2551202 - 04/12/04 02:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
There is no absolute, pure, free will.  We have free will, but all within the parameters of our past, which has produced our present, which limits the opportunities and choices available to us. 




Not only does it limit our choices, it also makes our choices for us. Like Craven said, it really depends on how far into the nature of things you want to look. When you bypass the individual perspective for one second you can see that there is only the system and what the system creates within itself. I am a product of the system and what is happening is an inevitable chain reaction. Cause and effect style, ya'll!  :grin:

We are but a drop of formless water dropped somewhere in the system, where we flow depends on the system itself. However!

However! It goes deeper than that. We have this thing called consciousness, and advanced thought processes. This internal thing called a mind. It is crazy because it adds a whole fucking different dimension to cause and effect and the playing out of this system.

What I mean is that isn't just one flow carrying out the chain reaction anymore. There is this whole other flow, created by the first system, and is now interacting with that system. Every single second they are interacting.

Then you slap this individual perspective on this second system. It experiences the ability to make a choice. Is it actually.... making a choice?

I've been thinking no.... that the system created this second part and formed it to be what it is, and each step along the way the second system is interacting the way it is PURELY by what it became by the previous interactions, and what the first system is presenting in that moment.

I can definitely see this as one huge chain reaction playing out. Sure, when you have an individual perspective and you are experiencing it as it happens, I'm sure it does seem like you have control and choose. But a river can only start flowing in one moment from where it was flowing the previous moment.

But I still experience making a choice, just like I experience a dream that feels so real. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Peace.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Swami]
    #2551203 - 04/12/04 02:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

So who is going to stop me from going to the beach?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Swami]
    #2551331 - 04/12/04 02:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
What about a white child brought up in the 1930s in a family of KKKers? Can he choose to be a racist or not? Not really, until or unless some powerful life event overrides his programming.



Funny you should bring that up. A freind of mine was raised in a very racist family in rural Tennessee. They had a portrait over their fireplace of Nathan Bedford Forrest, the first leader of the KKK. Upon joining the U.S. Marines, he encountered his first black man - his D.I. The first day in boot camp, he stared at the man with his mouth gaping is disbelief. The D.I. asked him what his problem was, to which he replied, "I didn't know you people could speak" (he had been raised with the notion that blacks were sub-human animals). The D.I. took him aside and asked him where he was from, he didn't get angry or abusive but explained to him that the real world was a bit different than what he had been told by his family his whole life. To this day he harbors great respect for that D.I. and doesn't have a prejudice bone in his body - he judges everyone as individuals (two of his business partners are black). To the best of my knowledge, he chose to re-evaluate his beliefs and then alter them based on his experiences, whereas there are others who would not do so and remain racists. Programming or choice?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinenecronomicon
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2551364 - 04/12/04 03:06 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Sure, free will is an illusion...but then again, I consider everything besides the fact of me being aware an illusion.


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Offlinesherlockalien
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2551460 - 04/12/04 03:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I believe free will is not a universal condition of the human kind.. It is to be acquired, to be sought for.

It all has to do with physics, psychology...

Free will (creativity) is the initial parameter of the universe. Chaos with a pattern, creation, the essence. The physical universe we see is an illusion, the explicit order of the holographic world. The implicit order (i.e. the workings, the essence) is gradually acquired with intelligence. Each type of matter/life is more intelligent than the other, less limited, more towards free-will.

Minerals, then singled-cell organisms, then invertebrates, reptiles, mammalians, and finally us. We have all the steps before, plus some additions.

In a normal state, we are automatons, with a little more choice (or more complex dinamics) than other animals. A free will as is mentioned in the bible, or other mystic/religious traditions (forget about your ideas of ?pure free will?, because only the essence has it) is acquired through work.

We have potentials that we dont achieve, because we dont accept they exist. We can be the masters of ourselves, like gurdjieff said, but it is not easy. There has to be self-observation done, without analysis. We need to first learn about how the machine work, to dominate it. There has to be self-remembering, meeting with our inner selves. Shrooms or psychedelics MAY be of help (and may be against it too)... We need to dominate body tensions, know our inner workings, realize our different entities that take over and say ?I? for us, but are different in relation to themselves, and are not a unity.

The main thing is not to consider yourself awake, because thats what hinders you from really waking up and having free will (the possible human free will, not being the essence or god)


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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Swami]
    #2551671 - 04/12/04 04:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I can stop working right now, in the middle of the morning (as I am doing by writing this!), and go to the beach.

*sigh* Another illusion. You are free to talk about it, but you will NEVER walk out in the middle of a trial, 'Your honor, I have to go work on my tan.' You need to make your house payment and take care of your kids. How many people have risked their job (not just take a sick day) to go to the beach even though they REALLY, REALLY want to?

No, they will go to work and bitch about wanting to be someplace else. Ah, the fresh sea breeze of "free will"...




Ha! I talked to my guru about this exact thing, so I have an answer!

Yes, I can stop the trial and go to the beach, if that is my CHOICE! However, I will suffer the consequences, right? The judge will probably experience apoplexy, and I will probably be held in contempt.

Each of us can do anything we want. We are only limited by ourselves, and our ideas of how we are limited. "I can't because...."

We have free "choice". It's the consequences that prevent us from engaging in free choice.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Frog]
    #2551697 - 04/12/04 04:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It's the consequences that prevent us from engaging in free choice.

That sounds incredibly free.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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