Hi everyone, some of u may remember me from such threads, as all the big questions answered, free will, is it bs?, and others. havent been here in months thought i'd drop in and say hello. Also i'd like if possible for someone to find a flaw in this logic....
If freedom is that which is with out restraint, and will is the ability to act, then free will is the ability to act with out restraint right? but we all know that there are limits to what we can do, i cant fly, or shoot fireballs from my finger tips at will. So how can there be such a thing as limited freedom? isnt that an oxymoron, nonsequetor, contradiction?
Free will as most of us think of it would be the ability to make a "choice" that is not caused by something, if it was caused by something then it would just be the effect of the cause and not a free choice.
Ok, so maybe you'd argue we are the cause? but what caused us to be the cause, us being the cause must be the effect of a prior cause, if not then it was just random.
So in order for a choice to be free, it can have no cause, and there could be no limit on what we could "choose", but then at best we are left with a randomn choice, or more accurately a random event. Actually maybe spontanious is a more accurate word, rather then random, but then again what is the mechanism that allows this, how can anything actually be spontanious? maybe that is just another one of our conceptions based on what seems to be, but what really isnt.
But anyways u cannot will randomness, or spontinaity, if u could you would be able to predict the outcome, but the inability to do so is the very definition of randomness. And with spontinatity u cant even predict when it will occur.
So randomness isnt free will,and neither is a spontaneous event cause u cant will either. at best u can take a guess, or push the odds to favor one outcome over another, but can never be certain of what will be...till it is. and if something causes u to make a "choice" or take an action, then it isnt really a free choice, because it was caused. Even if u were influenced at all by something, then that something would have limited your freedom, and limited freedom is nonsense, how can that which is free be limited? so then what mystical mechanism, allows us to have the "free will" that many of us believe we have, infact our whole lives are built on this assumption. my answer? none, there is no free will because in order for there to be so, i would have to take action without cause, yet somehow have that action not be random, or even spontanious, yet be able to predict perfectly the outcome of my action, because if there was any chance that my will would not be done exactly as i intended then i really had no control, no unrestricted will,because like limited freedom, limited control makes no sense either, both are conceptions we use everyday, but in actuality have no basis in reality, just appearent reality.
So how then do we have free will? i can not find a shred of evidence for its existence, yet it is generally accepted that each person has it. Causes may be subtle, or come together in a myriad of ways to form one ultimate cause that percipitates an effect, and we may not always be aware of them, or how they came about, but they are always there, every cause has an effect, every effect is also a cause that inturn has another effect ect..so on and on... if there is no cause then how did the event occur?
if it was random how did we have any say in what occured? so how do we have free will? how can there be something between determinism and randomness? if there is, what is it? how did it come to be?
any ideas?
my opinion is ofcourse, there is none, no choice, and no freedom, and no control. They are conceptions based on the appearant reality, but have no actual basis in fact, or logic for that matter. if your up on your quantum physics then u know the world we see, is very different from the way things actually are. The only conclusion i can draw from the evidence and logic is that, in fact the only thing that is certain is that everything is uncertain. At best we can only hope that we will be lucky in how things unfold and be ok with the uncertain, but whether we wish that, and whether we can be ok with it all, is itself not up to us, we either will be caused to be one way or the other or will randomly be assigned our opinion, or beliefs. if u believe in free will now, u do so because all the circumstances, evironment, genetics, every quantum event that has occured since the begining of time makes you believe that you can believe anything u want, do anything u want, but that doesnt make it all true. it just means u cant help but be deluded, it means u cant help but be exactly what u are or where u are, at this moment, or any other.
So any flaws in my arguement that you can prove logically?
Oh and if your tempted to invoke god, then consider this...
How can god effect the system (us, the universe ect..) without the system inturn effecting god? say god makes a choice in regard to the system, and implements it. wouldnt there be some effect of that choice/action not only on the system but god also? wouldnt god be pleased or displeased with the outcome? that would be an effect. God would in a sense be caused by the system to be please or whatever, or to take another action based on the effects of the previous action. God set rules for the system, if the rules are broken then the system cannot function as it was originally intended, so the actions god could take would be limited by the rules that god had previously put into effect, assuming god still wanted the system to function by the same rules. And wouldnt gods desire in that respect, one way or the other, be determined by how the system had previously functioned, such as whether or not it had pleased god? So it seems that even god doesnt have free will because there are limits on what god can do, assuming god wants to maintain the basic rules he initially put into place.
But even that desire or lack of, would have to be caused by the previous performance of his creation. every one of gods actions will have an effect not only on the system, but on god, and will shape the next set of circumstances god finds himself in. which will inturn determine god's next choice, or more accurately action. Even for god the circumstances limit the possibilities, and gods desire counts as a circumstance, and that circumstance was caused by prior circumstances. So like you, even what god wants really isnt up to god, its determined by circumstance.
God cannot be outside the system and still effect the system, because God and gods interaction with the system, is itself another system.
The only other possiblity i see is that there are no "moments" no "time" there is no cause and effect, no action and reaction. No choices. Everything just is. It always has been, and always will be, And what we precieve to be time and motion, cause and effect is itself like choice, and freedom, conceptions based on our inability to see things as they actually are, to see the system at once as a whole. Even the term conception is just another conception, if that makes any sense.
None of this is real, except in the same sense as a lie is true or as good as true to the person who believes it.
Also responses like, if we didnt have free will everyone would just sit and watch tv till they were dead, or if we didnt have it then we couldnt be held responsible for our actions...Are not actual arguements against the logic, or possibility, they are just possible implications.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be.
Sorry this is so long but its important to me, and important to be as percise and all inclusive as possible, though really i could have tied this all in with a bunch of other stuff, but i'll spare you...this time  Thank you if you read this all, and especially if you posted a thoughtful and thought out reply.
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What we experience is proven real by the fact that we experience it, this person's experiences are not real because he is delusional, and the advances in science that one usually praises, which has really shown how cause and effect work, in this one instance are meaningless? Hhhm.....
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