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Gods and religion are different and seperate.
    #7565920 -

I can't do anything long winded, and I want this point to be concise so it's easy to read.

People, through various means, experience something that is called god. Then seeking to substantiate the experience, join a religion, or if none is found suitable, make their own one up. The morals of that religion are made up by the authours of it, the stories are attempts to explain it.

In older religion, where entheogens are still used, it's an order of magnitude easier to comprehend what the religion is derived from. In more modern religions, such as Christianity, the entheogen use is replaced by symbolic cannibalism, which probably did not start off as symbolic cannibalism (because that's weird no matter who you ask) but rather using alcohol as a substitution for entheogens, which instead of making people think, do nothing, or if lots of wine is being consumed, stupefy them to the point where no matter what's said, it's accepted. In more modern religions, like Islam, even the symbol of entheogenic drug use is done away with altogether, and what was once a religion, is little more than a tool of control.

I don't have a point to this, I don't have conclusions to make. It's an observation I couldn't ignore, thus I'd post it here, curious to know if anyone else has expressed this before.


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Edited by Visionary Tools (10/27/07 06:38 AM)

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Re: Gods and religion are different and seperate. [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7565950 -

Actually in some circles, the cannibalism still isn't symbolic.

A certain gland in the human brain at a certain point after the body's death is the ULTIMATE entheogen.

"God is an intelligible sphere, who's center is everywhere and circumference is nowhere" - Joe Campbell

"Anyone who tells you God is outside of you is a parasite" - Dan Winter

"Many of the ancient gods are Aliens that still live today, GOD is a process not a person" - Me

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Re: Gods and religion are different and separate. [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7565980 -

Quote:
In older religion, where entheogens are still used, it's an order of magnitude easier to comprehend what the religion is derived from. In more modern religions, such as Christianity, the entheogen use is replaced by symbolic cannibalism, which probably did not start off as symbolic cannibalism (because that's weird no matter who you ask) but rather using alcohol as a substitution for entheogens, which instead of making people think, do nothing, or if lots of wine is being consumed, stupefy them to the point where no matter what's said, it's accepted. In more modern religions, like Islam, even the symbol of entheogenic drug use is done away with altogether, and what was once a religion, is little more than a tool of control.



I think the context in which we utilized substances changed. Where at one point (as an example peyote or mushrooms) substances were used only in religious contexts or as a tool in spirituality, our society now allows these substances for recreational purposes.

I'm not sure that alcohol took the place of these substances in spirituality or that it caused an over-all lethargic society. I find that alcohol in modern society, before it becomes an addiction, becomes a cycle of depression and thus used as a "crutch" to face the hardships of life. I find the same is true with many addictions and thus a main reason said user allows them to continue. It has become an "easy road"... not exactly the term I'm looking for.

I think it plays a role, but I don't find it to be the only cause.

As an example, Christianity you are told what to believe, you are told how to behave. Is Islam really so different in those terms? I find this is a commonality among the "mainstream" religions, where as religions that are more naturalistic focus on your discovering for yourself the ways of the universe, true cause and effect, and karmic rule. You are given lessons and learn by experience.

Christianity gives us the 10 commandments and told to respect them or burn in hell.

I'm not exactly disputing as much as I am using this as an outlet to work through my own thoughts on the topic. I get where you're coming from, I just think it's a touch more complicated.

-Zuxa


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:~:~:~:~{ * }~:~:~:~:{ * }:~:~:~:~{ * }~:~:~:~:

All posts are made with only the intent to entertain myself and should ONLY be read with the understanding that they are FICTICIOUS. I do not warrant information I provide for use in illegal activity of any kind nor do I condone it for any reason. Furthermore, I am not, I have never, nor will I in the future, take ANY part in illegal activites.

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Re: Gods and religion are different and seperate. [Re: Middleman]
    #7566067 -

Middleman said:
"Anyone who tells you God is outside of you is a parasite" - Dan Winter


I'd sort of agree with that. I'd be more definate, but I don't like overthinking about this matter, because no good will come of it.


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Re: Gods and religion are different and separate. [Re: Acinaxuz]
    #7566079 -

Acinaxuz said:
As an example, Christianity you are told what to believe, you are told how to behave. Is Islam really so different in those terms?

-Zuxa


Not really, just one has symbolic cannibalism, and the other does away with the pretense of taking entheogens altogether.


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Re: Gods and religion are different and separate. [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7566088 -

Be careful not to associate all religious experience with entheogens. There are many other(in some cases more powerful) ways of having mystical experiences. Furthermore, don't necessarily assume that mystical experiences are the origin of religion. They certainly can play a major role, and for some like William James they were thought to be primary, but as Emile Durkheim pointed out, religion has traditionally had a role of social cohesion. When Durkheim, a secular Frenchman and one of the major founders of sociology, studied the religion of the Aborigines in Australia, he came to see their gods as symbolic expressions of their own conceptions of society itself. He came to see all religions in a similar light. He also saw the primary role of religion as differentiating between the sacred and the profane.

I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between these two ideas. On an individual level, mystical experiences can play a powerful role, but since it is difficult to have a society of mystics, these mystical experiences can only play a developmental role for religion to the extent that they create social cohesion.


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Re: Gods and religion are different and seperate. [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7566800 -

Some false branches hold to such things as transubstantiation. Obviously this is a doctrine of devils. Don't confuse true Christian doctrine with pseudo christian doctrine.

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Re: Gods and religion are different and seperate. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7566903 -

:devilslist:

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Re: Gods and religion are different and seperate. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7567018 -

fivepointer said:
Some false branches hold to such things as transubstantiation. Obviously this is a doctrine of devils. Don't confuse true Christian doctrine with pseudo christian doctrine.


What is obvious about it?

How does an outside observer determine true from pseudo?


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Re: Gods and religion are different and seperate. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7567032 -

Only fivepointer can make such a determination.  His judgement is infallible.  All hail fivepointer!  :bow:


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Re: Gods and religion are different and seperate. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7567033 -

fivepointer said:
Some false branches hold to such things as transubstantiation.  Obviously this is a doctrine of devils.  Don't confuse true Christian doctrine with pseudo christian doctrine.


It's all fairy tales to me :smile: And badly written at that!


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Re: Gods and religion are different and separate. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7567049 -

Silversoul said:
Be careful not to associate all religious experience with entheogens. There are many other(in some cases more powerful) ways of having mystical experiences. Furthermore, don't necessarily assume that mystical experiences are the origin of religion. They certainly can play a major role, and for some like William James they were thought to be primary, but as Emile Durkheim pointed out, religion has traditionally had a role of social cohesion. When Durkheim, a secular Frenchman and one of the major founders of sociology, studied the religion of the Aborigines in Australia, he came to see their gods as symbolic expressions of their own conceptions of society itself. He came to see all religions in a similar light. He also saw the primary role of religion as differentiating between the sacred and the profane.

I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between these two ideas. On an individual level, mystical experiences can play a powerful role, but since it is difficult to have a society of mystics, these mystical experiences can only play a developmental role for religion to the extent that they create social cohesion.


I'll put it this way. The most profound mystical experiences happen to people in altered states of mind. Be it from chanting, fasting, sleep deprivation, or a mushroom, and then writing about it in a certain way is called religion.

But there is also religion where people write about what you can and cannot do (with the empathsis (sorry, I can't spell it: To empathise on) on cannot) who either tack on their morality to the vision, using it's authority to put in their instruction, or it's just teaching of morality, using the power of story telling to convince people that it's right and to accept it because of faith, instead of reason. The latter in this case is about as far removed from what the former is as possible.

Then again, people seem to think one form is more valid than the other. I'm biased to whatever is the least malicious, which is usually the one not being preached and advertised to people all the time.


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Re: Gods and religion are different and seperate. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7567070 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
What is obvious about it?

How does an outside observer determine true from pseudo?


Why would an outside observer be concerned with such matters?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Gods and religion are different and seperate. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7567206 -

Because both the pseudo and the 'true' (read: another pseudo) doctriners want to control everyone's private life and harass us mercilessly until we swear by a fairy tale. They cannot be happy unless we all feel guilty about being human.

Amen.


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Re: Gods and religion are different and seperate. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7567221 -

Yes... and since BOTH categories do the same thing, why do we need to learn the "real" from the "fake"? :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Gods and religion are different and seperate. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7567234 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Because both the pseudo and the 'true' (read: another pseudo) doctriners want to control everyone's private life and harass us mercilessly until we swear by a fairy tale. They cannot be happy unless we all feel guilty about being human.


Sounds like baseless generalization to me. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Gods and religion are different and seperate. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7567859 -

Genralization: Yes.

Baseless: No.

Almost all drug and 'morality' laws orginate from fundamental 'thinking'.

As Christians believe that ALL non-Christians (and most other Christian sects other than their own) it is their DUTY and RESPONSIBILITY to covert heathens. This ranges from sublte violence to all-out war and 'crusades'.

Humans are fully sexual by about 12 or 13. What can they do about it?

1. Masturbation is wrong.

2. Premarital sex is worng.

3. Abortion is wrong.

4. Contraceptives are immoral.

5. Celibacy for a young person full to the brim with hormones telling him/her to fuck like bunnies creates serious mental/emotional issues resulting in guilt.

Christians want to share (read: impose) this guilt on as many people as possible.

I could go on all day, but I stand by my statement.


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Re: Gods and religion are different and seperate. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7567959 -

Scripture does not tell anyone to create political laws restricting personal liberty. These matters are spiritual not political.

Christians are told to proclaim the gospel not forcefully convert anyone. The Holy Spirit does the work in conversion, and no one can command the Spirit to convert anyone, since it comes and goes like the wind and is not bound by human will.

As far as sex goes, it is a wonderful gift of God. However it is to be reserved for the marriage bed. God's way is the best way whether you understand it or not. Do I want to impose this on others? The gospel is not about imposing things, it is about belief of the truth.

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Re: Gods and religion are different and seperate. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7568005 -

Quote:
since it comes and goes like the wind


CNN NEWS: The fires in California have helped to boost the high pressure system, increasing the chance of Holy Spirit conversions on the west coast. In other news...

Quote:
God's way is the best way

Ancient Jewish law is ancient Jewish man's way, not God's way.


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Re: Gods and religion are different and seperate. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7568209 -

I think mystical experiences come when someone makes a deep connection with something or someone else. As for religions, they are more about creating a single stream of thought amongst there members, giving power to the leaders who usually become a symbol of worship ie. the pope.

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