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OfflinePsilocybe Ryan
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Christianity?
    #339301 - 06/12/01 08:27 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I have been talking with my good friend for a while now about christianity. Out of all people it surprises me that he is christian. Do you think that people made up the bible for controlling other people and so the church would get all the power or do you think that someone found the bible and misused it for mind control. If the second scennario is the case than I have more reason to beleive christianity is true. The bible has been translated many of times, and I highly guess that it has been changed or added too. I think it is so stupid how holy wars begun over christianity, and how it seems like a popularity contest. My friend says he is still a christian but he doesn't beleive in organized religions. He doesn't belong to any of the classes for example luthern. He doesn't go to church or anything. If I bring up the topic of another religion, he tells me christianity is the only right path. He blabs on about how if I seek I will find, but he never tries to push it on me. I don't see how he made the big leap from agnostic to christianity. I mean how could he have just suddenly knew god was real. Was he on a high dose of mushrooms or something. I mean when I am very happy it doesn't mean I jump to the conclusion that it was god who made me happy. I just find myself stuck on the topic of religion. I would actually lean towards christianity but not the traditional sense. The only thing is from learning about history I just don't see how I can beleive something that mostly violent people who are raised or forced to beleive in it and who are also against drugs believe in it. However if they misued it and the original texts of the bible are different and stuff, it would give me a lot more reason to beleive.
Any comments or opinions.



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OfflineDroz
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Re: Christianity? [Re: Psilocybe Ryan]
    #339365 - 06/12/01 09:37 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I really dont know much about christianity so maybe you can help me too. So maybe the bible was found by some other people, why would that make you believe christianity is true? What underlining theme of the bible do you think is true? A few people i know i have spoken too about christianity and neither of them have read the whole bible. Only some verses out of it that was taught in thier church. To what i believe about the bible is that it is only a book. I believe that the bible does create better people though. Do you think that without reading the bible you could have created your own beliefs on 'god' and 'everything'? If someone never told you about religion maybe you wouldnt even have created a meaning for the word god. I dont like that word anyway.

Peace,
Droz

Try to understand one another.


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity? [Re: Psilocybe Ryan]
    #339395 - 06/12/01 10:24 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

If you would like to learn the latest scholarly information on how an Aramaic oral tradition was often mistranslated into Greek (a language that Y'shua [Jesus] didn't speak) and then into other languages, then I urge you to buy John Shelby Spong's book 'Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes.' I graduated from a Methodist seminary in 1978, have ben studying Christian theology since then, and THIS book blew my mind! Spong is now teaching at Harvard and is a brilliant author. If you really want to know about the Bible - how the Gospels were constructed from Old Testament sources, what parts of the New Testament are later 'insertions,' or which are mythological embellishments, or how the Gospels are a product of 'Midrash' - a story-telling technique that is intended to convey a spiritual truth in Judaism and is NOT intended to be taken as a historical report - then get this book. For example, the idea of the virgin who is to bear a child in Bethlehem, taken from the Book of Isaiah (7:14), of which Jesus is the supposed result, is based on a mistranslation of the word 'almah' in the Hebrew which means young woman into the Greek 'parthenos,' or virgin. The Hebrew word for virgin is 'betulah,' but the Greeks didn't have separate words. Since, at the time the Gospels were written, the Old Testament had aleady been translated from Hebrew into Greek 500 years after Isaiah had written it, and 200 years before Jesus was born, Matthew was quoting a mistranslation himself! The whole virgin birth idea was never intended by Isaiah, but it is common among world religions to portray the founder's birth, and death as miraculous (e.g., the Buddha, Pabmasambhava in Tibet, Mohammed stepping of the Kaaba stone to be 'translated' directly into Heaven, the 'bodily' resurrection of Jesus, etc.) There is Truth, and there is tradition, which usually embodies mythological exaggerations intended to suggest something more subtle, but interpreted by materialistic and concretistic thinkers (like fundamentalists). Anyway........



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleClark
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Re: Christianity? [Re: Psilocybe Ryan]
    #339735 - 06/13/01 06:55 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Ryan,

re: Christianity,
I recommend you do not get involved with this dangerous upstart cult.

The suggestion that someone may have "found the bible and misused it for mind control" is actually much too kind. The bible is a mish-mash of texts written by authors of wildly differing perspectives over a course of many hundreds of years, jammed between the same covers and falsely interpreted as having some measure of coherence. First promoted by the Jews, this creaky fiction of unity lurched forward another step in the fourth century AD, with an exclusive cabal of Christian bishops deciding what to put into the canon and what to put to the torch. Then the persecution of dissenting voices began in earnest with the backing of the state, completing the illusion.

And for what purpose? Remember that in the ancient world, religious control and political control were usually identical. Thanks to the pious book (and people) burnings which characterized the early church, we will probably never know exactly what Christianity was supposed to look like. But if you do go searching for the answer to that one, don't expect to find any reassuring consensus regarding Jesus' nature and mission.

If you want some idea of how wide a range of perspectives early Christianity actually embraced, I recommend you check out the writings of the Gnostics. The Nag Hammadi library is a good online resource, and a real eye-opener.

But read everything with a skeptical eye, realizing that no written source (in- or outside the bible) is going to take you any closer than 50 to 200 years from the events supposedly being described.




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OfflineFun_Guss
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Re: Christianity? [Re: Clark]
    #339763 - 06/13/01 08:03 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Have a look at John Allegro's interpretaion of the bible (The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross). Very interesting...



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Offlinejonnyshaggs420
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Re: Christianity? [Re: Psilocybe Ryan]
    #339787 - 06/13/01 08:51 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

If you take a look at almost all ancient religions they fall close to eachother in practices and beleifs. I believe that christianity started out like this but was later mis-read, mis-interpreted and totally spun out of proportion. With the religion being threatened by polytheism priests had to come up with a way of gaining more followers so they created the ideal of an all forgiving all loving god, and promoted the fear that if you weren't a christian you would be subjected to unending eternal torment in hell. After many followers were acheived through this method they turned their efforts toward the destruction of all pagans(non-christians) with slander and mass propaganda, i.e. witch trials, gipsy killings, stoning of heretics. From there we have the top selling religion of today, where your sins are forgiven for a dollar and individuality is punished with fire.

Its funny to read the bible when it says that Jesus was a clean and holy man capable of no sin, when historically the records show that Jesus and his family lived and most likely worshipped in a hindu temple(false god), he then married a prostitute(mary magdelen(sp?), and essentially practiced folk magick for the entirety of his preaching years(miracles). What history will teach you. Oh, it doesn't really matter much but historically speaking there is about an 80% chance that Jesus also had children, so some of us could have the "blood of the gods" running through us.lol

In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud, Under the bludgeonings of chance My head is bloody, but unbowed.


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Vote Jonnyshaggs in the next election for GOD...Its the responsible choice


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OfflinePsilocybe Ryan
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Re: Christianity? [Re: Psilocybe Ryan]
    #339814 - 06/13/01 10:09 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Thanx for all the information I am recieving. I definately do like the teachings of Jesus. I think if he was hear today, we would be doing shrooms together.

Edited by Psilocybe Ryan on 06/14/01 12:24 AM.



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity? [Re: jonnyshaggs420]
    #340190 - 06/13/01 11:40 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

"...historically the records show that Jesus and his family lived and most likely worshipped in a hindu temple..." Not to mention the other assertions, this one alone is about the most bizarre and silly thing I have ever encountered in any of these posts about Christianity. What hysterical, I mean, historical records could you possibly be referring to about first century Judea? Someone is earnestly seeking answers, and you provide schizo-babble? I bet you give wrong directions to motorists too.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity? [Re: Psilocybe Ryan]
    #340207 - 06/13/01 11:57 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

The seeking that you refer to is a Way of Life. The early church was referred to as the Way. Do not expect instant, supersensible 'answers' to rational questions or petitions. Prayer is not magic, which seeks to manipulate, it is mystical which seeks union with the divine. The prayer of 'simple regard,' or of 'practicing the Presence' are types of Christian contemplation that has the practitioner find his/her Center. When that occurs (firstly by effort, later by grace [suffused Uncreated Energy, according to the Greek Orthodox tradition]), one begins to experience oneself as having an 'inner ordering principle.' It is like a magnet placed under a sheet of paper sprinkled with iron filing. The field of the magnet begins to 'arrange' the filings in a symmetrical way. Likewise, one who has found one's Center - the Divine Indwelling - will begin to experience synchronistic events in one's life - meaningful coincidences. The process requires patience, for 'in patience possess ye your soul.' The Reality of Christ is in each moment, it is not imprisoned in the written Word. The Bible (or any truly holy book) is merely a 'testament' to the Living Reality. Listen to the beat of your heart, feel the breath, find the Center. As with all books: "Painted cakes do not satisfy hunger." BE alive in the moment. This is where God dwells. Peace.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflinePsilocybe Ryan
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Re: Christianity? [Re: Psilocybe Ryan]
    #340238 - 06/14/01 12:27 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Hey Mark!
My friend was just talking about the same thing!

I find what you just said and spirituality discussion very interesting.



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Offlinejonnyshaggs420
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Re: Christianity? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #340345 - 06/14/01 03:18 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Just so you know, well from the sound of things you know everything already, marriage, death, birth records they have all been found from the time period of Jesus, these vary same records were the ones used to prove the historical existance of Jesus. They say that a man named Jesus, born of a Mary and Joseph, was wed to a woman named Mary Magdelen. The Bible itself clearly states that Mary was a prostitute, the woman by the well, i think. Also in the tradition at the time the only people allowed to prepare the body after death were the mother and/or the wife. Tradition at the time also states that if a man and a woman who were wed did not have children they were essentially oestrasized. In the bible there is no mention of Jesus from the time he is 12 to the time he is 30, during this time it is thought by many scholars that his family left Jerusalem for some reason or another, A temple in southern asia, shows a record of a family with a Joseph a Mary, a son named Jesus as well as other children staying for an unwritten amount of time in their temple. These records come from the reletive time frame that Jesus and his family are missing from Jerusalem. Many of the teachings of Jesus also follow Hindu beleifs, contrary to the religions of Jerusalem. Those are the records I am talking about, do some research about the religion and show some interest instead of being lead blindly. The Bible is not 100% accurate and to quote it word for word as an absolute truth is just madness and stupidity.

Oh and no, I don't give bad directions to motorists, I give them good directions to someplace they don't want to go, especially if they are only a block away from their destination.

Tired of pimping yourself on the corner to afford spores? Well throw out that red dress and go to the FSR, for spores even you can afford.


--------------------
Vote Jonnyshaggs in the next election for GOD...Its the responsible choice


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Offline~`Tursiops truncatus`~
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Re: Christianity? [Re: jonnyshaggs420]
    #340408 - 06/14/01 05:39 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold- And she's buying a stairway to heaven- And when she gets there she knows if the stores are all closed- With a word she can get what she came for-

There's a sign on the wall but she wants to be sure- Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings- In a tree by the brook there's a songbird who sings sometimes- All of our thoughts are misgiven-

There's a feeling I get when I look to the west- And my spirit is crying for leaving- In my thoughts I have seen rings of smoke through the trees- And the voices of those who stand looking-

And it's whisperd that soon if we all call the tune- Then the piper will lead us to reason- And a new day will dawn for those who stand long- And the forests will echo with laughter

And it makes me wonder-

If there's a bustle in your hedgerow don't be alarmed now-
It's just a spring clean for the May-Queen- Yes there are two paths you can go by- But in the long run- There's still time to change the road you're on-

Your head is humming and it wont go in case you don't know-
The piper's calling you to join him- Dear lady can you hear the wind blow- And did you know your stairway lies on the whispering wind-

And as we wind on down the road- Our shadows taller than our soul- There walks a lady we all know- Who shines white light and wants to show- How everything still turns to gold- And if you listen very hard the tune will come to you at last- When all are one and one is all- To be a rock and not to roll-

~Led Zeplin_ Stairway to heaven.



Everything is energy... everything is "GOD".



























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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity? [Re: jonnyshaggs420]
    #340435 - 06/14/01 07:20 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

There are no such documents found from among the Jews or the Romans, only an execution record of "a certain Christos," in reference to the title bestowed on Y'shua. Whatever you are reading is completely bogus, and sounds derivative of the fictional 'Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ' by Levi. A poor 1st century Jew, living under the oppression of Roman-occupied Judea, probably never travelled more than 200 miles from home. The gap that you refer to between 12 and 30 is understood if you understood that the New Testament is not a historical narrative, but a compilation of oral traditions arranged to reflect the liturgy of the Jewish calendar and its holy days. Joseph, or Yosef, may well be a literary creation to fill the unknown place of the male parent of Y'shua. He may have been a Roman soldier, since you like scandalous ideas. Joseph of Arimithea, a second Joseph character at the crucifixion is also in likelihood a literary creation. His followers had fled, and no one got too close to the brutality of executions Roman-style anyway. The 'woman who loved much' is the only suggestion that Magdalen was a prostitute - there was nothing more descriptive than that, but as a female character, her role has been important in some important social ways. I suggest that you read one or two scholarly books such as John S. Spong's 'Liberating the Gospels' if you want more accurate information.

Edited by MarkostheGnostic on 06/14/01 07:21 AM.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflinePsilocybe Ryan
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Re: Christianity? [Re: Psilocybe Ryan]
    #340998 - 06/14/01 11:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Johnny. I definately agree with you about the bible not being 100 % accurate. I think priests and other people added or changed things. I have started reading some of Jesus's teachings though and I do like what he teaches.



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OfflineTODDEMS
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Re: Christianity? [Re: Psilocybe Ryan]
    #341223 - 06/15/01 06:06 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

i half agree with u . I am a sort of christian crossed with a strong agnostic i think it is impossible to be %100 sure of any religion no matter who u r and any one who tells u they are is a liar i beleive in god and the bible but i cant say i am %100 sure he exists i beleive in the spirit realm and that their are good and bad spirits i used to be a wiccan but decided to much bad could have come of it if i wasn't careful so i asked for forgiveness in the church and became christian i'm not saying christianity is the correct path no one can, but you should choose the religion that you are comfortable with and you believe in.

Were all a little mad.



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Were all a little mad.



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