Herbus said:

There are many good questions, little things within the religion that do not make sense, just as little bits of unknown info pertaining to the theory of evolution do not fully make sense.

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Quote:

"If God loves me so much, how come he created diseases and despair...?"

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Quote:

"Why are we supposed to believe in something yet given the free will to believe it is false...?"

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Quote:

"What about dinosaurs, we know dinosaurs lived millions of years ago...?"

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Quote:

To all of these questions, some Christian has devised some form of an "answer," even if it be something so simple as "anything not stated in the Bible is clearly the blasphemous work of the devil."

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Quote:

Well... I have found the question, as many of you may have.
I really do not see how others could not have come to this same inquiry.
Involving the ENTIRE IDEOLOGY... and BIG PICTURE... - I do for surely know this has been said, albeit differently worded...
Assuming everything in the Bible is correct, word-for-word, one must still ask this:

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Quote:

Why would God, omniscient, omnipotent, CREATOR-OF-EVERYTHING construct such a silly succession of events which have been detailed to have occured, and to occur, in the Bible.
Basically, God knows everything, he knew exactly what was going to happen when he created Satan. So what, God thinks, and creates him anyways? Is that what happened?

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Quote:

He also created Siddhartha Gautama (sp.), Mohammed, and countless other religious figures (supposedly), knowing damn well that their ideas would go on to collect a legion of followers who do not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ (yeah, they're un-saved.) Furthermore, he continously creates individuals whom he knows will follow these "heretic" religions and thus be sent to Hell.

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Quote:

This population figure, of peoples destined for Hell, is easily in the billions; arguably constituting a greater representation of people than that of the "saved."
And if God didn't create the "heretic religions," Satan did and God made Satan... knowingly.
Therefor, according to the "Good Book," every generation, God is creating people for the simple purpose of subjecting them to the damnation of Hell. That is, after they experience the trials of life...

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Quote:

I have yet to meet the pious individual with the answer, therefor, I have attempted to conclude on some answers myself, to offer the bewildered individual.
1. Christianity is right, yet overlooking... God sure did make man in "his image," an image prone to emotional outbreaks and uncomprehensible behavior, who gets damned pissed at people he created to dismiss him, and then laughingly sends them to Hell.
I like to picture the Christian God as like the "troubled son" of the "true God," who went off and created his own little worship-me-or-torture scheme of personal gratification. He has some obvious control issues, which is to be expected from the offspring of the Great Divine Thing. He displays his psychological abnormalities in the little 'sacrificial son for salvation' paradigm.
Obviously, the Christian God just needs a little love from his Father.
2. OR...
You can examine the possibility that God, not your pastor, instilled within you the ability to observe, even at times making observation a pleasurable thing to do...
And think that perhaps God wants you to use this ability, what a wonderful ability, and quit relying on previous observations, also made by humans, which occured 2,000 years ago.
That's silly.
When you want to visit relatives in another town do you walk there, or ride a camel/horse acquired through marriage?
No.
Even if you don't have transportation, unless you're specifically taking a stance against modern transportation, you'll hitch-hike.
If you contract a deadly disease, who are you more likely to want help from, an old man in a dark room with his various herbal concoctions and remedies, or a trained doctor who went through 8+ years of medical school?
In the world that God made, if you haven't observed, things tend to gradually change...
I would like some Christians to respond with their opinions, thank you.
No reason to be offended.

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Quote:

Well, yeah, you know how Christians are though

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redgreenvines said:

"how can it better serve as a social fabric to help individuals and families who falter on their way and need to meet and celebrate?"

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It could better serve humanity by dropping the notion of god.

Disco Cat said:

Herbus said:

There are many good questions, little things within the religion that do not make sense, just as little bits of unknown info pertaining to the theory of evolution do not fully make sense.

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The bible doesn't give an opinion on evolution.

Quote:

"If God loves me so much, how come he created diseases and despair...?"

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Disease and despair aren't creations, they're a destruction akin to a tear. Say you have the leaf of a plant in your hand, whole and entirely "good." Say you tear the leaf. The act of tearing the leaf would be what is called sin, or sinning, while the tear itself would be the result of sin, neither good nor bad, but certainly unbeneficial and disruptive of what is good.
We created the tears, and we are still creating them today. Even diseases have their origins. So why are you creating those things?

Quote:

"Why are we supposed to believe in something yet given the free will to believe it is false...?"

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Related to the previous answer, "free will" is a pretty popular catch phrase, but a person's choices depend on their knowledge. If you knew something to be true you obviously couldn't choose to disbelieve it, not before forgetting your understanding of it, the most you could do is disobey it.
Jesus said: "My people perish from lack of understanding," not "My people perish because of 'free will.'"

The free will excercised in that case would be the choice to ignore the important things about life to the point that the understanding of those things is forgotten, and that forgetfullness is then passed on from parents to their children, and then their children add to the hole taking after their parent's bad examples, and so on.
Eventually you have a stupid community that perishes because life caves in on the big hole of ignorance they've created.
Look at people today, you can watch this going on any moment on tv in even the smallest details, like styled news broadcaster voices... they have their origins which are not founded in good understanding, and they represent the result of an incomplete concept, yet fools perpetuate them and still worsen them.

Quote:

"What about dinosaurs, we know dinosaurs lived millions of years ago...?"

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Obviously you think the bible states otherwise. It doesn't.
In addition, while I'm no professional scientist I'm still aware that the best we can say is that we think these are the dates for dinosaurs and other things, but a little new information in the chain can throw the dates around a lot.

Quote:

To all of these questions, some Christian has devised some form of an "answer," even if it be something so simple as "anything not stated in the Bible is clearly the blasphemous work of the devil."

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If someone has devised an answer then it was obviously not there to begin with. The questions you've thrown out here are in response to claims that are not in the bible.

Quote:

Well... I have found the question, as many of you may have.
I really do not see how others could not have come to this same inquiry.
Involving the ENTIRE IDEOLOGY... and BIG PICTURE... - I do for surely know this has been said, albeit differently worded...
Assuming everything in the Bible is correct, word-for-word, one must still ask this:

---

Before you question the words of any piece you have to question your ability to understand them.

Quote:

Why would God, omniscient, omnipotent, CREATOR-OF-EVERYTHING construct such a silly succession of events which have been detailed to have occured, and to occur, in the Bible.
Basically, God knows everything, he knew exactly what was going to happen when he created Satan. So what, God thinks, and creates him anyways? Is that what happened?

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There's something I wrote a week ago in this thread that is useful here:
"I presume the same people who might make such mistakes in understanding what heaven and hell have been taught to actually be also would believe that satan is scripturally taught to be a demonic creature in some other dimension."

Remember, destruction isn't a creation but the breaking apart of a creation. Ignorance creates destruction, but people create ignorance.

Quote:

He also created Siddhartha Gautama (sp.), Mohammed, and countless other religious figures (supposedly), knowing damn well that their ideas would go on to collect a legion of followers who do not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ (yeah, they're un-saved.) Furthermore, he continously creates individuals whom he knows will follow these "heretic" religions and thus be sent to Hell.

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Jesus' teaching was to love. Jesus said "I am the Way" (notice the capitalized "W"). So then it all comes down to knowing what "Jesus" is. In the same sentence Jesus plainly said that he was "the Truth and the Life" and that "nobody comes to the Father" except through him. So, if you can understand this information as it's been laid out, what Jesus taught was that only through a dedication to truth and life could we find fulfillment.
Which other religious figures oppose that?

Now what is "the Father"?

Quote:

This population figure, of peoples destined for Hell, is easily in the billions; arguably constituting a greater representation of people than that of the "saved."
And if God didn't create the "heretic religions," Satan did and God made Satan... knowingly.
Therefor, according to the "Good Book," every generation, God is creating people for the simple purpose of subjecting them to the damnation of Hell. That is, after they experience the trials of life...

---

But that's not according to the "Good Book" at all. The other part of my post in the thread I previously linked to can help you understand.

Quote:

I have yet to meet the pious individual with the answer, therefor, I have attempted to conclude on some answers myself, to offer the bewildered individual.
1. Christianity is right, yet overlooking... God sure did make man in "his image," an image prone to emotional outbreaks and uncomprehensible behavior, who gets damned pissed at people he created to dismiss him, and then laughingly sends them to Hell.
I like to picture the Christian God as like the "troubled son" of the "true God," who went off and created his own little worship-me-or-torture scheme of personal gratification. He has some obvious control issues, which is to be expected from the offspring of the Great Divine Thing. He displays his psychological abnormalities in the little 'sacrificial son for salvation' paradigm.
Obviously, the Christian God just needs a little love from his Father.
2. OR...
You can examine the possibility that God, not your pastor, instilled within you the ability to observe, even at times making observation a pleasurable thing to do...
And think that perhaps God wants you to use this ability, what a wonderful ability, and quit relying on previous observations, also made by humans, which occured 2,000 years ago.
That's silly.
When you want to visit relatives in another town do you walk there, or ride a camel/horse acquired through marriage?
No.
Even if you don't have transportation, unless you're specifically taking a stance against modern transportation, you'll hitch-hike.
If you contract a deadly disease, who are you more likely to want help from, an old man in a dark room with his various herbal concoctions and remedies, or a trained doctor who went through 8+ years of medical school?
In the world that God made, if you haven't observed, things tend to gradually change...
I would like some Christians to respond with their opinions, thank you.
No reason to be offended.

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You talk very arrogantly for someone who has no knowledge on the subject of which they talk. You have clearly not read the bible for yourself, so why did you claim to know what it claims? Why are you taking bogus beliefs that aren't related to anything Jesus taught, or that is written in the books which explain what he taught, and pretending that this is what christians are about?

It's good that you are willing to stand against BS, but it's not good that you don't research matters before making judgements on them, and worse, spreading your own false teachings amongst a community, some of whom might also not know better.
Remember, ignorance is responsible for destruction, but people are responsible for ignorance.

Quote:

Well, yeah, you know how Christians are though

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Apparently not, and you don't either. American, especially Southern American christianity is quite different than the practice christianity elsewhere, especially Southern American christianity, which carries a notorious reputation among christians elsewhere. People in America have turned their christianity into a business and a show (tearing the truth), which has resulted in complete ignorance to the actual thing, and that ignorance is now causing tears all over society, as it caused a tear within you - and then you went on to almost create a tear of your own with this thread.

If Jesus calles himself Truth, then saying that you have not taken your acceptance of him seriously tends to have a different meaning than the one first intended.

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Basilides said:

For the most part, you seem to be asking for an apologist of literalist Christianity to respond. I highly doubt you will find one here. There are plenty of Christians here, but they have all long ago navigated through the ancient jargon that pollutes the religion in its current form. In fact, the topics you bring up here (such as suffering, free will etc.) are somwhat replayed/amateur and are seldom mentioned by the resident skeptics.

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MarkostheGnostic said:

That mentality of condemning all faiths, including the Judaism from which Christianity arose, is perhaps the biggest lie about Christianity as an organized religion - that it is the only true religion.

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Herbus said:

Why would God, omniscient, omnipotent, CREATOR-OF-EVERYTHING construct such a silly succession of events which have been detailed to have occured, and to occur, in the Bible.

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Herbus said:

As for the majority of people who responded to this...

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fireworks_god said:

This thread is strange.

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Quote:

Sheol Used of Unseen

In the Old Testament, the word for which hell is given in the King James Version is sheol, a word whose root meaning is “unseen.” The King James Version translates sheol as “hell” 31 times, “the grave” 31 times (since someone in the grave is unseen), and “the pit” three times.

Yet in the Old Testament sheol was not exclusively a place of punishment, for faithful Jacob was there (Gen. 37.35, 42.38, 44.29, 31). Righteous Job also longed for it in Job 14.13. David spoke of going to sheol in Ps. 49.15 and Jesus went there, Ps. 16.10 and Acts 2.24-31. In all these cases, these men were “unseen” because they were dead.

Sheol Used of National Judgments

Many times the Bible uses the word sheol of national judgments, i.e., the vanishing of a nation. In Isa. 14.13, 15, Isaiah said Babylon would go to sheol, and she vanished. In Ezek. 26.19-21, Tyre so vanished in sheol. Likewise, in the New Testament, in Mt. 11.23, 12.41, Lk. 10.15, and 11.29-32, Jesus said that Capernaum would so disappear. These nations and cities didn't go to a particular location, but they were going to disappear, and they did. They were destroyed. Thus, sheol is used commonly of national judgments in both the Old and New Testaments.
Hades Used of Anything Unseen

The New Testament equivalent of sheol is hades, which occurs only eleven times. Like its synonym sheol, the King James Version translates the word “hell.” However, the correct translation is hades, or the unseen. The Bible doesn't use hades exclusively for a place of punishment. Luke 16 pictures righteous Lazarus there. Acts 2.27, 31 says Jesus went there. In I Cor. 15.15, Paul used the same word when he said, “Death, where is thy sting?” In Rev. 1.18, Jesus said he had the controlling keys of death and hades, the unseen, and in Rev. 6.8, death and hades followed the pale horse. Finally, in Rev. 20.13, 14, death and hades gave up the dead that were in them, and were then cast into the lake of fire. These verses illustrate that hades refers to anything that is unseen.

Hades Used of National Judgment

Like its companion word in the Old Testament, hades was also plainly used of national judgments in the New Testament. In Mt. 11.23 and Lk. 10.15, Jesus said Capernaum would go down into hades, i.e., it was going to vanish. In Mt. 12.41 and Lk. 11.29-32, Jesus said his generation of Jews was going to fall.

About hades in Greek mythology, Edward Fudge said:


In Greek mythology Hades was the god of the underworld, then the name of the nether world itself. Charon ferried the souls of the dead across the rivers Styx or Acheron into this abode, where the watchdog Cerberus guarded the gate so none might escape. The pagan myth contained all the elements for medieval eschatology: there was the pleasant Elyusium, the gloomy and miserable Tartarus, and even the Plains of Asphodel, where ghosts could wander who were suited for neither of the above...The word hades came into biblical usage when the Septuagint translators chose it to represent the Hebrew sheol, an Old Testament concept vastly different from the pagan Greek notions just outlined. Sheol, too, received all the dead...but the Old Testament has no specific division there involving either punishment or reward. (Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes [Houston: Providential Press, 1982], p. 205.)

We need to make sure that our ideas concerning hades come from the Bible and not Greek mythology. We have no problem using sheol the way the Old Testament used it, or hades, as the New Testament used it. Both refer to the dead who are unseen, and to national judgments.

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fivepointer said:

A common misconception, that God loves everyone without exception. God only loves those who believe the gospel. And why do they believe? Because God Himself has taught them what the gospel is. The love of God to His elect precedes any good or bad actions they have done.

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Disco Cat said:

"If Hell is real and universalism is a heresy, why is it that those who believe God loves all and will save all find it easier to love all people than those who believe most people are going to Hell? (Think this through very carefully.)"

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Silversoul said:

"By their fruits ye shall know them."

Keep this in mind before trying to engage someone like fivepointer in discussion.

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'HATE, HATE for God's sake!' 'We're jest a White Fraternal Christian organization. We wear the symbol of a drop of Christ's blood over our heart - one drop representing the Five Points where He was pierced. Now we're in-fil-tratin' a damned hippy heretic site called The Shrooomery, S**t-damn and Hell's Bells, if we can't join 'em, we're a-goin' to beat 'em down with our par-ticular brand o Christ-inanity ( http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/inanity )

BlueCoyote said:

If all would be preselected, why then should one consider life as a 'testing' stage against evil ?
You seem to hold both views as true, but how do they fit together ?
If life is some testing stage in some sort, then that what is tested can not be finally preselected. That is simple logic.

Conclusively , if one thinks one is preselected*, one thinks the goal will justify the means. That is an erroneous assumption, as it is only true vice versa; the means will ever and ever, justify the goal, no way round, not in the most far future, not in the past.

Ignorance is diversion and separation is ignorance. For some it might be bliss, for some it's the opposite of awareness.

The old and justified Gods in Mumuland are laughing in eternity (while G*D cries) about those silly traps, even the strongest believers dig for themselves.

The wish for believe has tainted their believe itself.

*preselected ? Additionally...How ? By learning about Jesus in our lifetime and acknowledge the gospels ? Only that what stands behind the gospels can be that what can be in resonance perhaps with something 'preselected' in us.
That is, what separates the will.

- BC out -

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MarkostheGnostic said:

Silversoul said:

"By their fruits ye shall know them."

Keep this in mind before trying to engage someone like fivepointer in discussion.

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'HATE, HATE for God's sake!' 'We're jest a White Fraternal Christian organization. We wear the symbol of a drop of Christ's blood over our heart - one drop representing the Five Points where He was pierced. Now we're in-fil-tratin' a damned hippy heretic site called The Shrooomery, S**t-damn and Hell's Bells, if we can't join 'em, we're a-goin' to beat 'em down with our par-ticular brand o Christ-inanity ( http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/inanity )

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Diploid said:

I hope you may be brought to see your a ruined wretched sinner in need of a Redeemer.

fivepointer, personalisms are against the rules of this forum.

Please don't do it again.

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Herbus said:

Hi.


Recently, seems like a lot of Christianity is presented to me.


I have disagreed with Christianity for quite some time, having never fully "accepted" it and not taking my "acceptance" of Jesus or whatever seriously.

Well, yeah, you know how Christians are though, especially if they're your relatives. Now there are a lot of people like me, and we often can only take several minutes; several difficultly restrained minutes of silence. After that, we have to unleash our brand of "comprehension," the whole "this is how I think things work" theory, something that within some individuals (myself included) contains little bits of "logic" and factual evidence proven by science.

There are many good questions, little things within the religion that do not make sense, just as little bits of unknown info pertaining to the theory of evolution do not fully make sense.

"If God loves me so much, how come he created diseases and despair...?"

"Why are we supposed to believe in something yet given the free will to believe it is false...?"

"What about dinosaurs, we know dinosaurs lived millions of years ago...?"


To all of these questions, some Christian has devised some form of an "answer," even if it be something so simple as "anything not stated in the Bible is clearly the blasphemous work of the devil."


Well... I have found the question, as many of you may have.

I really do not see how others could not have come to this same inquiry.

Involving the ENTIRE IDEOLOGY... and BIG PICTURE... - I do for surely know this has been said, albeit differently worded...


Assuming everything in the Bible is correct, word-for-word, one must still ask this:


Why would God, omniscient, omnipotent, CREATOR-OF-EVERYTHING construct such a silly succession of events which have been detailed to have occured, and to occur, in the Bible.

Basically, God knows everything, he knew exactly what was going to happen when he created Satan. So what, God thinks, and creates him anyways? Is that what happened?

He also created Siddhartha Gautama (sp.), Mohammed, and countless other religious figures (supposedly), knowing damn well that their ideas would go on to collect a legion of followers who do not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ (yeah, they're un-saved.) Furthermore, he continously creates individuals whom he knows will follow these "heretic" religions and thus be sent to Hell.

This population figure, of peoples destined for Hell, is easily in the billions; arguably constituting a greater representation of people than that of the "saved."

And if God didn't create the "heretic religions," Satan did and God made Satan... knowingly.

Therefor, according to the "Good Book," every generation, God is creating people for the simple purpose of subjecting them to the damnation of Hell. That is, after they experience the trials of life...

Knowingly.



I have yet to meet the pious individual with the answer, therefor, I have attempted to conclude on some answers myself, to offer the bewildered individual.


1. Christianity is right, yet overlooking... God sure did make man in "his image," an image prone to emotional outbreaks and uncomprehensible behavior, who gets damned pissed at people he created to dismiss him, and then laughingly sends them to Hell.

I like to picture the Christian God as like the "troubled son" of the "true God," who went off and created his own little worship-me-or-torture scheme of personal gratification. He has some obvious control issues, which is to be expected from the offspring of the Great Divine Thing. He displays his psychological abnormalities in the little 'sacrificial son for salvation' paradigm.

Obviously, the Christian God just needs a little love from his Father.

2. OR...

You can examine the possibility that God, not your pastor, instilled within you the ability to observe, even at times making observation a pleasurable thing to do...

And think that perhaps God wants you to use this ability, what a wonderful ability, and quit relying on previous observations, also made by humans, which occured 2,000 years ago.

That's silly.

When you want to visit relatives in another town do you walk there, or ride a camel/horse acquired through marriage?

No.

Even if you don't have transportation, unless you're specifically taking a stance against modern transportation, you'll hitch-hike.

If you contract a deadly disease, who are you more likely to want help from, an old man in a dark room with his various herbal concoctions and remedies, or a trained doctor who went through 8+ years of medical school?

In the world that God made, if you haven't observed, things tend to gradually change...


I would like some Christians to respond with their opinions, thank you.

No reason to be offended.

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MarkostheGnostic said:

I'm terribly sorry that you hate everyone who doesn't share your par-ticular point of view. Really...I am. The rest was all speculation. I still think that you need assistance however because many people are being subjected to far worse from you, than you are from me.

This just in!: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8201543200186623482

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Disco Cat said:

Time being eternal? I don't see a time. I see one moment in which energy is in constant motion, but that it is the same energy as was 100,000,000,000 years ago, and therefore it's not an issue of time as there is no that time vs this time, because the energy (which is the foundation of it all) that defines all that is in a time is constant. The same energy is still here, in whatever assortment, existing no more or no less.
Then again, I have a suspicion that energy may be ever increasing.

Energy's not something I've studied, but something I want more of, MORE!!! Good energy only.

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fivepointer said:

The gospel sets those who believe it free, it is a great thing.

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MarkostheGnostic said:

I have been blessed with certain Experiences which are the substance of the words, and so, I consider myself a Gnostic Christian.

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MarkostheGnostic said:

That's your whole inflated problem fivepointer. You make demands, proclamations, pontifications, and pronouncements of anathema. I apologize to others here on your behalf because you are clearly incapable of catching the slightest-reality-based clue. Your character and the words you use speak for themselves. I have done nothing more than satirize in the attempt to take the edge off your sharp condemnations. You have NO sense of humor and take yourself too seriously. Lose the self-importance since humility does not make demands because you're merely continuing to make my point about fivepointer. Take yourself to the wilderness and shout at the devil. Since you don't believe in free will, you'll have to aquiesce to predestination. Those who are saved, are saved and those who are not saved are not saved. In either case, your presence is superfluous at best and downright insulting and annoying at most. As my Mom used to say when I was obnoxious: "Go bang your head against a wall."

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Quote:

You may seem to be the microcosm;
In fact, you are the macrocosm.
The branch might seem like the fruit's origin:
In fact, the branch exists because of the fruit.
Would the gardener have planted the tree at all
Without a desire and hope for fruit?
That's why the tree is really born from the fruit
Even if it seems that the fruit was created by the tree.
The idea which comes first comes last in realization --
Particularly that idea which is eternal.

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fivepointer said:

"I consider the doctrine of "free will" to be a damnable heresy. I also consider Gnostics, Roman Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Universalists and Annihilationists (I could go on..) to be false gospels, and those who hold to such doctrines lost souls." Now that is more correct.

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Economist said:

We don't tell the Protestants that they're going to hell, but they sure tell us we are

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Economist said:

We (the Roman Catholics) still believe that you're trying pretty hard to live a good life, and we'll be happy to see you join us in union with God.

@Implicitli
Please don't label all Christians as believers in fivepointer's doctrine, many of us would be happy to engage in philosophical debate.  Please believe me when I tell you that, according to the Catholic Church, if you're asking the question "How do I live a good life?" the answer is probably that you're already doing more than enough.  That usually gets lost in the extremism and the slander (We don't tell the Protestants that they're going to hell, but they sure tell us we are), but if you ever want a dialogue I'd be happy to give it.

---

I am not here to debate with you (you may have already read my posts). I just wanted to say that when, as a young Jewish seeker I decided to receive a Christian Baptism, I selected the Roman Catholic Church for reasons juvenile, yet ardent, and for the [naively] philosophical reason of trying to attain true 'catholicity' (i.e., universality) in my Christian faith. The juvenile reasons were based on the kindly Catholic family who used to invite my secular Jewish family over on Christmas Day for many years during my childhood. They all (I had been 'in love' with one of their two daughters, 7 years my senior - a blue-eyed, blonde-haied Irish-American girl - my 'baby-sitter'  ) had been a very peaceful family. A second juvenile association was being taught about the crucifixion and the Sacred Heart of Jesus by my Catholic childhood friend Paul at about age 5 or 6. Lastly, my tripping/travel buddy Ed, also Catholic,  volunteered to introduce me to a priest who would give me catechism lessons and Baptize me. All positive associations with Catholicism, along with which I had been steeping my mind in Catholic mysticism, particular Pseudo-Dionysius which made complete sense in accordance with all the acid that I had been using.

I was never Confirmed a Catholic (I later spent 2 years in a Methodist seminary and took an MTS degree), and more recently in my life I have seen the origins of institution Christianity (Roman Catholicism) and its heresiology, inquisitions, crusades and purges, antisemitism and abuses of a 'celibate' priesthood (not to mention its patriarchy of same). In other words, the Shadow of Catholicism has become overwhelmingly apparent to me. This is not to say that I haven't been aware of other Shadows. It was the secular, materialistic Shadow of modern [Reform] Judaism that alienated me in the first place. If I didn't relegate the Exodus to Jewish Mythology, I would have to take issue with the slaughter of 30,000 Israelites who returned to Baal worship while Moses communed with Deity on the mountain (as well as other attrocities)!

I suppose that I am an equal-opportunity iconoclast, yet I never instigate people to leave the fold of their familial tradition. That I did, has proved a lonely and alienating path. I identify myself fairly awkwardly as Jewish Christian Gnostic with Jewish and Christian now being adjectival to Gnostic. A few years ago I would have said that Jewish and Gnostic were adjectival to Christian. However, if being a Christian demands fixed doctrinal and dogmatic expressions of the nature of Jesus Christ, then I simply cannot comply. I will maintain that I have a relationship with Christ as Logos; that I am in Christ, but I will not debate the percentages of humanity and divinity that comprise the nature of Jesus the Christ, and the orthodox versus heterodox views!

I have been called a heretic since I was 19 years old only because I suggested different interpretations of scripture. That used to please me somehow, but no longer. It is just my Realization that mentally-held constructs (doctrines/dogmas) rarely penetrate to the deeper/higher level wherein lies the 'Will' or essential being, and hence doctrines/dogmas do not transform a human being, through 'theosis' into Christ. They merely 'fix' the person at the 'psychic' level (in Gnostic understanding) and maintain division and divisiveness among human beings. The essential Truth dwells beyond the formulations so that a saint is a saint independently of his/her religious framework. Just sharing the nature of my 'heresy.' Since the historicity of scriptures is VERY questionable to me, I cannot state with certainty that the Biblical view of the crucifixion (for example) is accurate and the Qu'ranic view is not. The crux of the matter is (pun intended) the transformation of the human being into what Muslims Name Allah: "The Compassionate, the Merciful." THAT also describes Christ.

Peace.

-MtG

Economist said:

fivepointer said:

"I consider the doctrine of "free will" to be a damnable heresy. I also consider Gnostics, Roman Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Universalists and Annihilationists (I could go on..) to be false gospels, and those who hold to such doctrines lost souls." Now that is more correct.

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I'm sorry you feel this way fivepointer.

We (the Roman Catholics) still believe that you're trying pretty hard to live a good life, and we'll be happy to see you join us in union with God.

@Implicitli
Please don't label all Christians as believers in fivepointer's doctrine, many of us would be happy to engage in philosophical debate. Please believe me when I tell you that, according to the Catholic Church, if you're asking the question "How do I live a good life?" the answer is probably that you're already doing more than enough. That usually gets lost in the extremism and the slander (We don't tell the Protestants that they're going to hell, but they sure tell us we are), but if you ever want a dialogue I'd be happy to give it.

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