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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
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Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Christianity; the puppet religion?
    #7022700 - 06/08/07 02:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Lets start small. Ok, so before christianity was what it was, for the masses it was a constricted religion for one people very ethnocentric of them, but it was the nature of it. It was spread aws we know it by Saul, later known as paul and it was originally for the Jewish people of the world who wouldn't accept it as their own, and it was later transferred to the masses at large who as we can see, simply were ecstatic over it.

Is christianity a puppet religion for judaism? Who are the choosen people, why so much emphasis on their well being versus another? Why does god plays favorites, and does this truly make him worthy of our admiration? Is the Nation of Israel a direct result of this prophecy? What about all the genocides occuring now, do they deserve their own country and if not is their a limitation as to what is the determination in respects to quantity that makes a people deserving of such?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #7022845 - 06/08/07 03:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

God himself:crazy2: Will sort this all out.

Don't be such an unbeliever. To question is sinful. I think that's a commandment somewhere?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: Icelander]
    #7022868 - 06/08/07 03:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Oh noes teh satan has handed me teh apple! Or was that Eris :smirk:?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Offlinechubbycharley
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Posts: 525
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Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #7022932 - 06/08/07 03:45 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

you see, the problem with Christianity is that it is a dead religion. christ died a long time ago. he didn't even write the bible. most of it was written long after he died. not to mention that the catholic church has removed parts of the bible for their own benefit (controlling people).

jesus taught something completely different than the Christianity we know today. he was against starting a religion to worship him. he was just a regular guy, a carpenter and he realized that the people that were in control at time didn't know what the hell they were doing. so he started talking to the people that would listen, the whores, the derelicts, the diseased. people who were already moving against the ruling powers at the time, people that were cast away by the existing church. when he died not too many people really got the complete message. the few "quotes" in the bible are the closest we can come to realizing what Christianity was meant to be. jesus loved everybody and for his sympathy towards the people not loved by the rulers he was crucified, literally.

so it would seem that Christianity is much more based off of Judaism than christ. there is only one or two active churches i know of at present that teach primarily how to bring about the "christ-consciousness" in one's self, or what the eastern religions would call enlightenment. the Unity church (where my dad grew up) is the only one i can think of right now.

there is one book i very highly recommend, it's called Talks on the Sayings of Jesus by Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (1931-1990). that was not his birth name and later in life he went by Osho. all of his books are transcriptions of discourses he gave throughout his life.

Quote:

from wikipedia:

Osho claimed that the greatest values in life are (in no specific order) awareness, love, meditation, celebration, creativity and laughter. He said that enlightenment is everyone's natural state, but that one is distracted from realizing it – particularly by the human activity of thought, as well as by emotional ties to societal expectations, and consequent fears and inhibitions.

He was a prolific speaker (in both Hindi and English) on various spiritual traditions including those of Buddha, Krishna, Guru Nanak, Jesus, Socrates, Zen masters, Gurdjieff, Sufism, Hassidism, Tantra and many others. He attempted to ensure that no "system of thought" would define him, since he believed that no philosophy can fully express the truth.

An experienced orator, he said that words could not convey his message, but that his basic reason for speaking was to give people a taste of meditation:




what comes next is a sample of one of his discourses. his speech has much more impact when it can be heard by him speaking, he really does trick us into meditation. he was as brilliant man. read all of his books if you can but recordings are better. it would be best to sit with him in person but that is no longer possible. he always maintained that once he died his teachings would die with him and only the teaching of books would be left in his place.


--------------------
if i'm just a stoned stoner, sayin some stoned ass shit, please correct me :smile:


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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods


Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: chubbycharley]
    #7022997 - 06/08/07 04:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

chubbycharley said:
you see, the problem with Christianity is that it is a dead religion. christ died a long time ago. he didn't even write the bible. most of it was written long after he died. not to mention that the catholic church has removed parts of the bible for their own benefit (controlling people).

jesus taught something completely different than the Christianity we know today. he was against starting a religion to worship him. he was just a regular guy, a carpenter and he realized that the people that were in control at time didn't know what the hell they were doing. so he started talking to the people that would listen, the whores, the derelicts, the diseased. people who were already moving against the ruling powers at the time, people that were cast away by the existing church. when he died not too many people really got the complete message. the few "quotes" in the bible are the closest we can come to realizing what Christianity was meant to be. jesus loved everybody and for his sympathy towards the people not loved by the rulers he was crucified, literally.

so it would seem that Christianity is much more based off of Judaism than christ. there is only one or two active churches i know of at present that teach primarily how to bring about the "christ-consciousness" in one's self, or what the eastern religions would call enlightenment. the Unity church (where my dad grew up) is the only one i can think of right now.

there is one book i very highly recommend, it's called Talks on the Sayings of Jesus by Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (1931-1990). that was not his birth name and later in life he went by Osho. all of his books are transcriptions of discourses he gave throughout his life.

Quote:

from wikipedia:

Osho claimed that the greatest values in life are (in no specific order) awareness, love, meditation, celebration, creativity and laughter. He said that enlightenment is everyone's natural state, but that one is distracted from realizing it – particularly by the human activity of thought, as well as by emotional ties to societal expectations, and consequent fears and inhibitions.

He was a prolific speaker (in both Hindi and English) on various spiritual traditions including those of Buddha, Krishna, Guru Nanak, Jesus, Socrates, Zen masters, Gurdjieff, Sufism, Hassidism, Tantra and many others. He attempted to ensure that no "system of thought" would define him, since he believed that no philosophy can fully express the truth.

An experienced orator, he said that words could not convey his message, but that his basic reason for speaking was to give people a taste of meditation:




what comes next is a sample of one of his discourses. his speech has much more impact when it can be heard by him speaking, he really does trick us into meditation. he was as brilliant man. read all of his books if you can but recordings are better. it would be best to sit with him in person but that is no longer possible. he always maintained that once he died his teachings would die with him and only the teaching of books would be left in his place.





exactly im glad other people realizes this too he was just a man that wanted to bring back the why of life.


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: thedudenj]
    #7023117 - 06/08/07 04:42 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The Bible is a fascinating period history book, but pretty useless as a definitive legal or moral text. Surely almost 2000 years of Christianity has showed us this very clearly?

Choosing literal, fundamental Christian beliefs is a bit like choosing to use an abacus over a supercompuer for working out complex maths equations, or not using an anaesthetic when having your legs amputated. It's flying in the face of progress and common sense.


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods


Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: mr_kite]
    #7023193 - 06/08/07 05:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

well do we really need everything right now! as todays soceity is everything is NOW, no one has an understanding really for taking your time and living care free. ok we have all this tech what do we really have to show for it other then alot of peoples suffering


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
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Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: chubbycharley]
    #7023234 - 06/08/07 05:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

This is under the assumption that Jesus even existed at all as their is no historical evidence that he even existed that dates back to his time period. Eusebius talks of the Jesus myth i forget the exact time of his writing but he talks about the Myth of Jesus and how profitable it has become.

I'm not so much talking about how it was meant to be, but what it is.

edit:
glossed over this but is pertinent to what i'm talking about.
http://www.mwillett.org/atheism/jesusmyth.htm


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (06/08/07 05:27 PM)


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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #7023291 - 06/08/07 05:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
This is under the assumption that Jesus even existed at all as their is no historical evidence that he even existed that dates back to his time period. Eusebius talks of the Jesus myth i forget the exact time of his writing but he talks about the Myth of Jesus and how profitable it has become.

I'm not so much talking about how it was meant to be, but what it is.

edit:
glossed over this but is pertinent to what i'm talking about.
http://www.mwillett.org/atheism/jesusmyth.htm




You miss the point completely! Try again! :wink:


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: mr_kite]
    #7023302 - 06/08/07 05:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

:lol: wrong quick reply my bad.

Anyway I'm not talking about how it should be used, but rather the analysis of how it is used.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: chubbycharley]
    #7023462 - 06/08/07 06:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jesus taught something completely different than the Christianity we know today. he was against starting a religion to worship him. he was just a regular guy, a carpenter and he realized that the people that were in control at time didn't know what the hell they were doing.





This brought an interesting thought up. I know I always talk about Tao shit but I feel this is relevant..

Lao Tzu, the guy who supposedly wrote the Daodejing, didn't intend to an organized religion of Taoism. The whole idea of a Taoist Church is so far from what Lao Tzu wrote down. Lao Tzu continuously stressed against morals and government. Religions stress morals and this tends to be useful for governments. call me a conspiracy theorist but that's what I believe. this is a very washed out explanation. But people think taoism is a religion and there's places that set up churches of tao, this is far from the truth as "the way" is just the way Dao isn't a list of rules and guidelines, it's harmony. Not kidding yourself is tao.

anyhow, yeah thought i'd add this.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


Edited by Cracka_X (06/08/07 08:53 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #7023654 - 06/08/07 07:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It is GOOD to ask such questions! However, you are looking at the outer, exoteric form of religion, a form which is cast in the language of Hebrew midrash and in Hebrew and Greek mythos. If one really studies the scriptures there are so many contradiction and erros in geography, temporality, testimony and in other aspects that the common person would just as soon discard the whole book once and for all.

Your questions cannot be simply answered because the different points you raise arise from different time periods (Old Testament writings span quite a lot of time relative to New Testament writings). The ideas of God changed across time as evidenced by different and therefore conflicting presentations. In the Book of Job, wherein Satan works for God, terrible things are done to Job (and his family and livestock) yet Job remains steadfast in his faith: "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him." (Job 13:15). C.G.Jung wrote an important paper on the book.

As to Genocide, In Exodus, Moses orders, by the authority of YHVH, thousands of people to die. In that same verse, 32, God is said to "repent" and God is said to be "unchanging," another fine contradiction by whomever penned the work. Assuredly it was not Moses, a mythic character enhanced in the popular imagination by actor Charleton Heston under the directorship of Cecil B. DeMille!

Once again, I'll recommend John Shelby Spong's incredible book: Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes. I'll also point out that unlike readers of the Hindu scripture The Bhagavad Gita, which is commonly understood by the Hindu mentality to be a mythic expression of a spiritual battle that goes on internally, the Western extraverted mentality which externalizes everything and creates exoteric religious forms has yet to understand the Bible to be midrash, metaphor and myth that are supposed to be 'psychologized' (in modern terms), which is to say internalized, much as the Bhagavad Gita must be to be understood properly. Clearly there are Hindus who practice by way of 'devotion' to Krishna, just as the majority of Christians practice devotion to sweet Jesus. However, at a deeper level, both Hindus and Christians have another path - the path of Knowledge - called Jnana (or gyan) in Hinduism, Gnosis in Christianity. This path translates the words of mythos to the words of depth psychology so that one can actually DO something with the Knowledge for transmuting one's own life.

As Jesus said in Luke 20:25: "...Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's." Likewise, true spiritual religion and politics are like oil and water. It is only the outer exoteric form of religion that can be used in political ways to justify war, killing, violence and evil. These are not activities of spiritually anointed human beings, so careful not to confuse apples with oranges. Exoteric religion is only the husk, the kernal is about being High in the highest sense of the word, and High in this context means Holy - Compassionate, not pious.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7024560 - 06/09/07 12:29 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

psh for judiasm?? for mushrooms!!


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7025610 - 06/09/07 08:56 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I'm merely looking at the here and now, the state of affairs, how its used, whats it becoming, not where it came from nor the contradictions (those would be too numerous for this one post). If we were to do an analysis on the nature of Jehovah it'd be pertinent to look to several versions, however if we were to look at the current circumstances in relation to the movement of the overall Christian community, we can and should do an analysis of the current times regardless of where it came from.

They can be answered is it used as a result of all of this in your opinion? Or is this merely an effect that wasn't conceived?

Is this the result of Darbyism and the ever bastardized Scotfield reference Bible? :yesnod:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #7025704 - 06/09/07 10:03 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Hey, you're the one who left the here and now to revisit Saul/Paul :smile:. That is the beginning whence present day Christianity arose. The Scofield Reference Bible,  promoted 'dispensationalism' (of which Darby is credited with being the father of [I confess looking him up in Wikipedia :blush:]) - the theological notion that history is divided up into 7 eras. Of course, the fundies got a hold of this version of the Bible and embraced this mythic closed universe which was created in 4004 BC based on their interpretation of Biblical geneology. Absurd.

Today, dispensationalism still rules concrete-thinking fundamentalist belief ('We're entering the end-times!'). They tend to take Revelations - one piece of apocalyptic literature that was included in the canon, full of all kinds of end-times violence and pestilence and judgement, and interpret this book according to their own political imaginations. The author of revelations was speaking to his own political situation and like many apocalyptic Christians in the 1st century, believed that the end (times) was near. They were wrong. Many Christians blink the fact that the Jesus of the Bible and Paul were both wrong about the end of the world :banghead:. Just like some Jews who being dispersed from their center, Jerusalem, and the Temple in 70 AD, Christians also began to question whether their prophesies and scriptures should be interpreted along historical lines. Jewish Gnosticism and Jewish Christian Gnosticism may have arisen in part as a response to disappointments. God did not smash the Roman Empire as they had hoped and Christ did not return in glory to usher in the end times. Maybe, just maybe, the Gnostics were correct about the symbolic nature of prophesies and visions in the Old Testament whose fruition was sought by Christians. Like dream symbols, Biblical symbols came through the unconscious (perhaps from 'God') and needed to be internalized :psychsplit:, NOT externalized into imaginary historical events (theophanies, apocalypse scenarios, etc.).

Modern apocalyptic, fundamentalist Christians remind me of Samuel beckett's play Waiting for Godot - an absurdist play in which the character Godot [God]ot, is being waited for in a single scene, isolated from others. When Godot doesn't show up, day after day, they both agree that he'll surely show up tomorrow. Perhaps, unwittingly, the fundamentalist Christian creates for him/herself a mental state of enhanced anticipation/expectation - a kind of addiction to excitement, and who become politically involved only insofar as world events seem to be moving towards the ultimately 'exciting' apocalyptic Armageddon :eek:! Imagine how dangerous GW is potentially, if he believed a nuclear exchange in Megiddo in the Middle East would bring about the return of Christ in glory, and that he, GWB, could have a hand in that  :shitstorm:!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7025725 - 06/09/07 10:11 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I had to bring up saul as a point of refrence to show that it was originated from Judaism directly, nothing more.

The darbyists have the power, their the ones that have infiltraited the government and influenced the masses to the greatest degree, so why i bothered to bring them up.

Anyhow i've read some stuff suggesting that the nation of israel never existed and it wasn't nearly as concrete as the bible suggests, more or less implying that it was a prophecy to come into fruition through the efforts of god.

The apocalapyse is closer then you think as far as self fulfilling prophecies go.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: thedudenj]
    #7025744 - 06/09/07 10:18 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

thedudenj said:
well do we really need everything right now! as todays soceity is everything is NOW, no one has an understanding really for taking your time and living care free. ok we have all this tech what do we really have to show for it other then alot of peoples suffering




it's simple, really

modern (or 'civilized/advanced' cultures) times - a way to avoid the physical aspects of work and pain while indulging in 'fun' as often as possible with lots of mental/emotional stresses

past and some present - work a few or many hours a day, with less frequent 'fun' but still enjoying life with more physical pain but much less mental/emotional stresses


it's somewhat of a trade off


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods


Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: demiu5]
    #7025755 - 06/09/07 10:24 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

well look at the Mbuti Pygmies i watched a really good sociology video about they they have pets, live secluded are completely passive only kill animals for food with they ration properly, and are nomadic and build everything out of jungle stuff and can build huts that withstand monsoon winds and rains, they also smoke tribal water bong made from nature, um they do alot of badass shit and are just awsome tho i have to say they arent that pretty but i prefer happiness over looks anyday i dislike being attractive cause it attracts fake plastic people all the time


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #7025902 - 06/09/07 11:29 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
Is christianity a puppet religion for judaism? Who are the choosen people, why so much emphasis on their well being versus another?



The concept of a "chosen people" is a very powerful meme, so it's not surprising that Judaism has left imprints of this meme in religions influenced by it. Just think about it: if the god Jehova chose a people a long time ago, and he haven't done many public appearances since, then this choice must be important forever for everyone who believes in Jehova. That's why the story about the jews being the chosen people is preserved both in the Christian Bible and the Islamic Quran. And the Mormons extended the story to include "lost tribes" in America.

However, this doesn't make either Christianity, Islam, or Mormonism into puppet religions of Judaism, since they all view Judaism as being on the wrong track since jews didn't acknowledge Jesus, Muhammed, or Joseph Smith in the correct way according to each of these religions.

The meme of belonging to a special "chosen" group exists on many levels besides religion. It shows up a lot in sports for example, and in any situation where flags are waved.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Christianity; the puppet religion? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7025914 - 06/09/07 11:33 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:I'll also point out that unlike readers of the Hindu scripture The Bhagavad Gita, which is commonly understood by the Hindu mentality to be a mythic expression of a spiritual battle that goes on internally, the Western extraverted mentality which externalizes everything and creates exoteric religious forms has yet to understand the Bible to be midrash, metaphor and myth that are supposed to be 'psychologized' (in modern terms), which is to say internalized, much as the Bhagavad Gita must be to be understood properly.



This is a very complex issue in my opinion, and very interesting one.

If one can choose to express an idea in the form of a fictional "gedankenexperiment" or pure abstract reasoning on one hand, or on the other hand in the form of a true story that illustrates the idea, I think the true story variant will get the most attention. It doesn't even have to actually be a true story, just so long as it contains enough true details to be convincing.

This is so because people value experience more than speculation. Or what they perceive as true experience...

Anyway, the effect is that memetic-darwinian selection favors the survival of scriptures that are perceived as true stories, and this effect makes it harder to see the real point of the stories, which is the "midrashic" or spiritual message or whatever you want to call it. So there is a sort of built-in dilemma here...


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