Home | Community | Message Board

Mycohaus
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineHerbus
...

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 1,477
Loc: Reading the map...
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
The Biggest Question of Christianity...
    #6403831 - 12/28/06 09:48 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hi.


Recently, seems like a lot of Christianity is presented to me.


I have disagreed with Christianity for quite some time, having never fully "accepted" it and not taking my "acceptance" of Jesus or whatever seriously.

Well, yeah, you know how Christians are though, especially if they're your relatives. Now there are a lot of people like me, and we often can only take several minutes; several difficultly restrained minutes of silence. After that, we have to unleash our brand of "comprehension," the whole "this is how I think things work" theory, something that within some individuals (myself included) contains little bits of "logic" and factual evidence proven by science.

There are many good questions, little things within the religion that do not make sense, just as little bits of unknown info pertaining to the theory of evolution do not fully make sense.

"If God loves me so much, how come he created diseases and despair...?"

"Why are we supposed to believe in something yet given the free will to believe it is false...?"

"What about dinosaurs, we know dinosaurs lived millions of years ago...?"


To all of these questions, some Christian has devised some form of an "answer," even if it be something so simple as "anything not stated in the Bible is clearly the blasphemous work of the devil."


Well... I have found the question, as many of you may have.

I really do not see how others could not have come to this same inquiry.

Involving the ENTIRE IDEOLOGY... and BIG PICTURE... - I do for surely know this has been said, albeit differently worded...


Assuming everything in the Bible is correct, word-for-word, one must still ask this:


Why would God, omniscient, omnipotent, CREATOR-OF-EVERYTHING construct such a silly succession of events which have been detailed to have occured, and to occur, in the Bible.

Basically, God knows everything, he knew exactly what was going to happen when he created Satan. So what, God thinks, and creates him anyways? Is that what happened?

He also created Siddhartha Gautama (sp.), Mohammed, and countless other religious figures (supposedly), knowing damn well that their ideas would go on to collect a legion of followers who do not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ (yeah, they're un-saved.) Furthermore, he continously creates individuals whom he knows will follow these "heretic" religions and thus be sent to Hell.

This population figure, of peoples destined for Hell, is easily in the billions; arguably constituting a greater representation of people than that of the "saved."

And if God didn't create the "heretic religions," Satan did and God made Satan... knowingly.

Therefor, according to the "Good Book," every generation, God is creating people for the simple purpose of subjecting them to the damnation of Hell. That is, after they experience the trials of life...

Knowingly.



I have yet to meet the pious individual with the answer, therefor, I have attempted to conclude on some answers myself, to offer the bewildered individual.


1. Christianity is right, yet overlooking... God sure did make man in "his image," an image prone to emotional outbreaks and uncomprehensible behavior, who gets damned pissed at people he created to dismiss him, and then laughingly sends them to Hell.

I like to picture the Christian God as like the "troubled son" of the "true God," who went off and created his own little worship-me-or-torture scheme of personal gratification. He has some obvious control issues, which is to be expected from the offspring of the Great Divine Thing. He displays his psychological abnormalities in the little 'sacrificial son for salvation' paradigm.

Obviously, the Christian God just needs a little love from his Father.

2. OR...

You can examine the possibility that God, not your pastor, instilled within you the ability to observe, even at times making observation a pleasurable thing to do...

And think that perhaps God wants you to use this ability, what a wonderful ability, and quit relying on previous observations, also made by humans, which occured 2,000 years ago.

That's silly.

When you want to visit relatives in another town do you walk there, or ride a camel/horse acquired through marriage?

No.

Even if you don't have transportation, unless you're specifically taking a stance against modern transportation, you'll hitch-hike.

If you contract a deadly disease, who are you more likely to want help from, an old man in a dark room with his various herbal concoctions and remedies, or a trained doctor who went through 8+ years of medical school?

In the world that God made, if you haven't observed, things tend to gradually change...


I would like some Christians to respond with their opinions, thank you.

No reason to be offended.


--------------------
...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/16/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: Herbus]
    #6404178 - 12/28/06 05:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Herbus said:
There are many good questions, little things within the religion that do not make sense, just as little bits of unknown info pertaining to the theory of evolution do not fully make sense.



The bible doesn't give an opinion on evolution.


Quote:


"If God loves me so much, how come he created diseases and despair...?"




Disease and despair aren't creations, they're a destruction akin to a tear. Say you have the leaf of a plant in your hand, whole and entirely "good." Say you tear the leaf. The act of tearing the leaf would be what is called sin, or sinning, while the tear itself would be the result of sin, neither good nor bad, but certainly unbeneficial and disruptive of what is good.
We created the tears, and we are still creating them today. Even diseases have their origins. So why are you creating those things?


Quote:


"Why are we supposed to believe in something yet given the free will to believe it is false...?"



Related to the previous answer, "free will" is a pretty popular catch phrase, but a person's choices depend on their knowledge. If you knew something to be true you obviously couldn't choose to disbelieve it, not before forgetting your understanding of it, the most you could do is disobey it.
Jesus said: "My people perish from lack of understanding," not "My people perish because of 'free will.'"

The free will excercised in that case would be the choice to ignore the important things about life to the point that the understanding of those things is forgotten, and that forgetfullness is then passed on from parents to their children, and then their children add to the hole taking after their parent's bad examples, and so on.
Eventually you have a stupid community that perishes because life caves in on the big hole of ignorance they've created.
Look at people today, you can watch this going on any moment on tv in even the smallest details, like styled news broadcaster voices... they have their origins which are not founded in good understanding, and they represent the result of an incomplete concept, yet fools perpetuate them and still worsen them.


Quote:


"What about dinosaurs, we know dinosaurs lived millions of years ago...?"



Obviously you think the bible states otherwise. It doesn't.
In addition, while I'm no professional scientist I'm still aware that the best we can say is that we think these are the dates for dinosaurs and other things, but a little new information in the chain can throw the dates around a lot.


Quote:


To all of these questions, some Christian has devised some form of an "answer," even if it be something so simple as "anything not stated in the Bible is clearly the blasphemous work of the devil."



If someone has devised an answer then it was obviously not there to begin with. The questions you've thrown out here are in response to claims that are not in the bible.



Quote:


Well... I have found the question, as many of you may have.
I really do not see how others could not have come to this same inquiry.
Involving the ENTIRE IDEOLOGY... and BIG PICTURE... - I do for surely know this has been said, albeit differently worded...
Assuming everything in the Bible is correct, word-for-word, one must still ask this:




Before you question the words of any piece you have to question your ability to understand them.


Quote:


Why would God, omniscient, omnipotent, CREATOR-OF-EVERYTHING construct such a silly succession of events which have been detailed to have occured, and to occur, in the Bible.
Basically, God knows everything, he knew exactly what was going to happen when he created Satan. So what, God thinks, and creates him anyways? Is that what happened?





There's something I wrote a week ago in this thread that is useful here:
"I presume the same people who might make such mistakes in understanding what heaven and hell have been taught to actually be also would believe that satan is scripturally taught to be a demonic creature in some other dimension."

Remember, destruction isn't a creation but the breaking apart of a creation. Ignorance creates destruction, but people create ignorance.

Quote:


He also created Siddhartha Gautama (sp.), Mohammed, and countless other religious figures (supposedly), knowing damn well that their ideas would go on to collect a legion of followers who do not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ (yeah, they're un-saved.) Furthermore, he continously creates individuals whom he knows will follow these "heretic" religions and thus be sent to Hell.



Jesus' teaching was to love. Jesus said "I am the Way" (notice the capitalized "W"). So then it all comes down to knowing what "Jesus" is. In the same sentence Jesus plainly said that he was "the Truth and the Life" and that "nobody comes to the Father" except through him. So, if you can understand this information as it's been laid out, what Jesus taught was that only through a dedication to truth and life could we find fulfillment.
Which other religious figures oppose that?

Now what is "the Father"?


Quote:


This population figure, of peoples destined for Hell, is easily in the billions; arguably constituting a greater representation of people than that of the "saved."
And if God didn't create the "heretic religions," Satan did and God made Satan... knowingly.
Therefor, according to the "Good Book," every generation, God is creating people for the simple purpose of subjecting them to the damnation of Hell. That is, after they experience the trials of life...




But that's not according to the "Good Book" at all. The other part of my post in the thread I previously linked to can help you understand.


Quote:


I have yet to meet the pious individual with the answer, therefor, I have attempted to conclude on some answers myself, to offer the bewildered individual.
1. Christianity is right, yet overlooking... God sure did make man in "his image," an image prone to emotional outbreaks and uncomprehensible behavior, who gets damned pissed at people he created to dismiss him, and then laughingly sends them to Hell.
I like to picture the Christian God as like the "troubled son" of the "true God," who went off and created his own little worship-me-or-torture scheme of personal gratification. He has some obvious control issues, which is to be expected from the offspring of the Great Divine Thing. He displays his psychological abnormalities in the little 'sacrificial son for salvation' paradigm.
Obviously, the Christian God just needs a little love from his Father.
2. OR...
You can examine the possibility that God, not your pastor, instilled within you the ability to observe, even at times making observation a pleasurable thing to do...
And think that perhaps God wants you to use this ability, what a wonderful ability, and quit relying on previous observations, also made by humans, which occured 2,000 years ago.
That's silly.
When you want to visit relatives in another town do you walk there, or ride a camel/horse acquired through marriage?
No.
Even if you don't have transportation, unless you're specifically taking a stance against modern transportation, you'll hitch-hike.
If you contract a deadly disease, who are you more likely to want help from, an old man in a dark room with his various herbal concoctions and remedies, or a trained doctor who went through 8+ years of medical school?
In the world that God made, if you haven't observed, things tend to gradually change...
I would like some Christians to respond with their opinions, thank you.
No reason to be offended.




You talk very arrogantly for someone who has no knowledge on the subject of which they talk. You have clearly not read the bible for yourself, so why did you claim to know what it claims? Why are you taking bogus beliefs that aren't related to anything Jesus taught, or that is written in the books which explain what he taught, and pretending that this is what christians are about?

It's good that you are willing to stand against BS, but it's not good that you don't research matters before making judgements on them, and worse, spreading your own false teachings amongst a community, some of whom might also not know better.
Remember, ignorance is responsible for destruction, but people are responsible for ignorance.





Quote:

Well, yeah, you know how Christians are though



Apparently not, and you don't either. American, especially Southern American christianity is quite different than the practice christianity elsewhere, especially Southern American christianity, which carries a notorious reputation among christians elsewhere. People in America have turned their christianity into a business and a show (tearing the truth), which has resulted in complete ignorance to the actual thing, and that ignorance is now causing tears all over society, as it caused a tear within you - and then you went on to almost create a tear of your own with this thread.

If Jesus calles himself Truth, then saying that you have not taken your acceptance of him seriously tends to have a different meaning than the one first intended.


Edited by Disco Cat (12/28/06 07:24 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 33,858
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6404330 - 12/28/06 06:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I would not argue with the merits of christian social support.
it has much to offer people faced with lonely and painful episodes that life sets upon us.
we need social fabric to fall into when we cannot cope alone (eg weddings births funerals, festivals...).
but
I would not (waste any effort to) argue with christian dogma nor its philosophies that are entrenched with pre-midaeval morality, pre-midaeval science, and reversed cause and effect wormhole logic.
so
if there is a big question for christianity it should be
"how can it better serve as a social fabric to help individuals and families who falter on their way and need to meet and celebrate?"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 21 days, 17 hours
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6404342 - 12/28/06 06:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
"how can it better serve as a social fabric to help individuals and families who falter on their way and need to meet and celebrate?"




It could better serve humanity by dropping the notion of god. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBasilides
Servent ofWisdom
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: Herbus]
    #6404396 - 12/28/06 06:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

For the most part, you seem to be asking for an apologist of literalist Christianity to respond. I highly doubt you will find one here. There are plenty of Christians here, but they have all long ago navigated through the ancient jargon that pollutes the religion in its current form. In fact, the topics you bring up here (such as suffering, free will etc.) are somwhat replayed/amateur and are seldom mentioned by the resident skeptics.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 21 days, 17 hours
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: Basilides]
    #6404917 - 12/28/06 09:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

So, what remains for a typical Christian that remains in this forum as far as that goes? What central ideas play a role in the conceptual identity, and why?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHerbus
...

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 1,477
Loc: Reading the map...
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6405640 - 12/29/06 01:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Quote:

Herbus said:
There are many good questions, little things within the religion that do not make sense, just as little bits of unknown info pertaining to the theory of evolution do not fully make sense.



The bible doesn't give an opinion on evolution.


Quote:


"If God loves me so much, how come he created diseases and despair...?"




Disease and despair aren't creations, they're a destruction akin to a tear. Say you have the leaf of a plant in your hand, whole and entirely "good." Say you tear the leaf. The act of tearing the leaf would be what is called sin, or sinning, while the tear itself would be the result of sin, neither good nor bad, but certainly unbeneficial and disruptive of what is good.
We created the tears, and we are still creating them today. Even diseases have their origins. So why are you creating those things?


Quote:


"Why are we supposed to believe in something yet given the free will to believe it is false...?"



Related to the previous answer, "free will" is a pretty popular catch phrase, but a person's choices depend on their knowledge. If you knew something to be true you obviously couldn't choose to disbelieve it, not before forgetting your understanding of it, the most you could do is disobey it.
Jesus said: "My people perish from lack of understanding," not "My people perish because of 'free will.'"

The free will excercised in that case would be the choice to ignore the important things about life to the point that the understanding of those things is forgotten, and that forgetfullness is then passed on from parents to their children, and then their children add to the hole taking after their parent's bad examples, and so on.
Eventually you have a stupid community that perishes because life caves in on the big hole of ignorance they've created.
Look at people today, you can watch this going on any moment on tv in even the smallest details, like styled news broadcaster voices... they have their origins which are not founded in good understanding, and they represent the result of an incomplete concept, yet fools perpetuate them and still worsen them.


Quote:


"What about dinosaurs, we know dinosaurs lived millions of years ago...?"



Obviously you think the bible states otherwise. It doesn't.
In addition, while I'm no professional scientist I'm still aware that the best we can say is that we think these are the dates for dinosaurs and other things, but a little new information in the chain can throw the dates around a lot.


Quote:


To all of these questions, some Christian has devised some form of an "answer," even if it be something so simple as "anything not stated in the Bible is clearly the blasphemous work of the devil."



If someone has devised an answer then it was obviously not there to begin with. The questions you've thrown out here are in response to claims that are not in the bible.



Quote:


Well... I have found the question, as many of you may have.
I really do not see how others could not have come to this same inquiry.
Involving the ENTIRE IDEOLOGY... and BIG PICTURE... - I do for surely know this has been said, albeit differently worded...
Assuming everything in the Bible is correct, word-for-word, one must still ask this:




Before you question the words of any piece you have to question your ability to understand them.


Quote:


Why would God, omniscient, omnipotent, CREATOR-OF-EVERYTHING construct such a silly succession of events which have been detailed to have occured, and to occur, in the Bible.
Basically, God knows everything, he knew exactly what was going to happen when he created Satan. So what, God thinks, and creates him anyways? Is that what happened?





There's something I wrote a week ago in this thread that is useful here:
"I presume the same people who might make such mistakes in understanding what heaven and hell have been taught to actually be also would believe that satan is scripturally taught to be a demonic creature in some other dimension."

Remember, destruction isn't a creation but the breaking apart of a creation. Ignorance creates destruction, but people create ignorance.

Quote:


He also created Siddhartha Gautama (sp.), Mohammed, and countless other religious figures (supposedly), knowing damn well that their ideas would go on to collect a legion of followers who do not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ (yeah, they're un-saved.) Furthermore, he continously creates individuals whom he knows will follow these "heretic" religions and thus be sent to Hell.



Jesus' teaching was to love. Jesus said "I am the Way" (notice the capitalized "W"). So then it all comes down to knowing what "Jesus" is. In the same sentence Jesus plainly said that he was "the Truth and the Life" and that "nobody comes to the Father" except through him. So, if you can understand this information as it's been laid out, what Jesus taught was that only through a dedication to truth and life could we find fulfillment.
Which other religious figures oppose that?

Now what is "the Father"?


Quote:


This population figure, of peoples destined for Hell, is easily in the billions; arguably constituting a greater representation of people than that of the "saved."
And if God didn't create the "heretic religions," Satan did and God made Satan... knowingly.
Therefor, according to the "Good Book," every generation, God is creating people for the simple purpose of subjecting them to the damnation of Hell. That is, after they experience the trials of life...




But that's not according to the "Good Book" at all. The other part of my post in the thread I previously linked to can help you understand.


Quote:


I have yet to meet the pious individual with the answer, therefor, I have attempted to conclude on some answers myself, to offer the bewildered individual.
1. Christianity is right, yet overlooking... God sure did make man in "his image," an image prone to emotional outbreaks and uncomprehensible behavior, who gets damned pissed at people he created to dismiss him, and then laughingly sends them to Hell.
I like to picture the Christian God as like the "troubled son" of the "true God," who went off and created his own little worship-me-or-torture scheme of personal gratification. He has some obvious control issues, which is to be expected from the offspring of the Great Divine Thing. He displays his psychological abnormalities in the little 'sacrificial son for salvation' paradigm.
Obviously, the Christian God just needs a little love from his Father.
2. OR...
You can examine the possibility that God, not your pastor, instilled within you the ability to observe, even at times making observation a pleasurable thing to do...
And think that perhaps God wants you to use this ability, what a wonderful ability, and quit relying on previous observations, also made by humans, which occured 2,000 years ago.
That's silly.
When you want to visit relatives in another town do you walk there, or ride a camel/horse acquired through marriage?
No.
Even if you don't have transportation, unless you're specifically taking a stance against modern transportation, you'll hitch-hike.
If you contract a deadly disease, who are you more likely to want help from, an old man in a dark room with his various herbal concoctions and remedies, or a trained doctor who went through 8+ years of medical school?
In the world that God made, if you haven't observed, things tend to gradually change...
I would like some Christians to respond with their opinions, thank you.
No reason to be offended.




You talk very arrogantly for someone who has no knowledge on the subject of which they talk. You have clearly not read the bible for yourself, so why did you claim to know what it claims? Why are you taking bogus beliefs that aren't related to anything Jesus taught, or that is written in the books which explain what he taught, and pretending that this is what christians are about?

It's good that you are willing to stand against BS, but it's not good that you don't research matters before making judgements on them, and worse, spreading your own false teachings amongst a community, some of whom might also not know better.
Remember, ignorance is responsible for destruction, but people are responsible for ignorance.





Quote:

Well, yeah, you know how Christians are though



Apparently not, and you don't either. American, especially Southern American christianity is quite different than the practice christianity elsewhere, especially Southern American christianity, which carries a notorious reputation among christians elsewhere. People in America have turned their christianity into a business and a show (tearing the truth), which has resulted in complete ignorance to the actual thing, and that ignorance is now causing tears all over society, as it caused a tear within you - and then you went on to almost create a tear of your own with this thread.

If Jesus calles himself Truth, then saying that you have not taken your acceptance of him seriously tends to have a different meaning than the one first intended.





This is called a cycle, which I will attempt to discontinue.

Blah blah, as my lack of understanding in Christianity is displayed in my post, your lack of understanding in my post is equally presented.

You obviously have what could be referred to as a "deeper" understanding of Christianity, whereas this post specifically referred to those who believe it "literally," word-for-word.

Which means you could be an "enlightened" individual who spewed forth nothing but forgiveness and love and still go to "Hell" because you did not exude that love and forgiveness in Jesus' name.

My most recent interpretation of Christianity is that it has been very misunderstood, and I may be guilty of this incomprehension.

Yet I can see 'something' within the scripts, similar to what I see in many scripts.

It states, to me:

God is everything...

Life is a cycle, and if you follow your compulsions you will remain in the cycle. Because this "cycle" contains discomfort at times, it can be explained as Hell, or what I consider a "disconnection" from God.

To follow your neurological impulses is to isolate, to continously see "oneself" as apart from everything else, especially entities and objects which may bring discomfort. The compulsion is to dislike things which give discomfort, to disconnect from them at all costs...

The highest achievement of life is to ignore this, and to love everything as it is yourself. To try endlessly to see beyond oneself, to see the Divine in every object, and to love it.

To do so is to open oneself up to "connection," and thus reconnect with God, and liberate onself from the cycle.

This is simply my interpretation... and I know it has similarities in things stated long ago...


--------------------
...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHerbus
...

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 1,477
Loc: Reading the map...
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: Basilides]
    #6405646 - 12/29/06 01:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
For the most part, you seem to be asking for an apologist of literalist Christianity to respond. I highly doubt you will find one here. There are plenty of Christians here, but they have all long ago navigated through the ancient jargon that pollutes the religion in its current form. In fact, the topics you bring up here (such as suffering, free will etc.) are somwhat replayed/amateur and are seldom mentioned by the resident skeptics.




:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinematchbook
Photographer

Registered: 10/02/04
Posts: 854
Loc: Washington
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: Herbus]
    #6405787 - 12/29/06 01:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not going to spend a lot of time answering your questions, because I know where these little debates tend to end up. But I will answer a couple of your questions.

I am a Seventh-Day Adventist Christian, and I consider myself to be quite conservative. I'm a believer in Jesus, and that the Bible is the Word of God through the mouth of Jesus and his chosen prophets.

"If God loves me so much, how come he created diseases and despair...?"

Answer: He did not create these things. He allowed them to happen. Originally, Satan was at the right hand of God, but he became envious of Christ, who was greater than he. So he rebelled and was banished to earth, and allowed to deceive God's people.

Satan's charge against God was that God's demands are impossible to follow, and that He does not deserve to be God, but instead we should all rebel and choose our own way to live. God knew all of this would happen. He created the perfect world, knowing it would be brought into sin. This does not mean it was a mistake. Our world is a universal example to angels and other worlds of what the cost of sin is. Because humanity entered into sin because of Adam and Eve, we are given the option of choosing God or Satan. In choosing God we accept that his ways are wiser than ours, and we allow Him to lead us. By choosing Satan (either by directly doing so, or by not choosing God) we show that we believe that we can live our lives without a divine leader. When the world ends and sin and the sinful are destroyed and the righteous saved, the universe will see that God is just, because he gave everyone in the world a chance to choose Him (or for those who never knew Him, he judges their hearts). Jesus proved on the cross that His Father's commandments could be followed unto death, and thereby gave us the chance to make the choice to choose Him.

"Why are we supposed to believe in something yet given the free will to believe it is false...?"

Answer: This is somewhat connected to the last question. God allowed Lucifer (Satan) to rebel in heaven, because he is allowing the universe to see what the results of rebellion are, and in the end they/we will all see that God's ways are just, and everyone who has ever lived will even proclaim it from their own mouths.

He allows us to rebel too. What kind of justice is it to force us to love Him? God hates the sin and pain that humanity is in, but it is the result of the original sin. But he promises us a reward that is of such wondrous magnitude that it obliterates the significance of any pain we have ever experienced. The only requirement is to believe in Him, and by so doing, we allow His Spirit to enter us and lead us.

"What about dinosaurs, we know dinosaurs lived millions of years ago...?"

Answer: If you believe dating methods, you have more blind faith than I do. Plus, the Bible talks about dinosaurs even. Leviathan in Job 39 I believe.

"Basically, God knows everything, he knew exactly what was going to happen when he created Satan. So what, God thinks, and creates him anyways? Is that what happened?"

Answer: You are giving God very little credit, purporting a "so what" mentality for Him. First off, as an omniscient and omnipotent being, He is able to reason and decide with infinitely greater skill than we ever could. So it is not wise to make conclusions based off assumptions about God's reasons.

I answered this question for the most part in your first question. Our world is the stage for the ultimate demonstration of the nature of Good and Evil, and the whole universe is watching. God did not stifle Satan's rebellion, or the results of it, because then what would his creations think? They would only love Him because they fear what he is capable of. Instead, through this process, all His creations can see what sin leads to, and what faithfulness leads to. God is the creator of all good things, but he allows the bad so that we understand why good is good, and we can see the contrast.

"If you contract a deadly disease, who are you more likely to want help from, an old man in a dark room with his various herbal concoctions and remedies, or a trained doctor who went through 8+ years of medical school? "

Reply: You are using a subtle tactic of directing one's mind to feel a certain way about the question you are asking, so that when they reply, they will feel compelled to reply in a certain way. You describe the herbalist as a seedy old man in a dark corner, and then vault the medical school-attending doctor. Let me rephrase your question: "If you contract a disease, who are you more likely to want help from, a doctor who learned nothing in medical school other than performing surgery, diagnosing problems, and prescribing drugs, but knows nothing about curing a disease, or a knowledgeable herbalist who uses natural chemicals from the earth to heal the body and create balance so as to actually correct the root of the problem?"

Now your doctor sounds a little crappier. But you see what I mean.


That's all I have to say for now. Please consider learning both sides with a balanced perspective, instead of asking questions and demanding answers to things you apparently haven't tried researching on your own.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 11 days
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: Herbus]
    #6405887 - 12/29/06 02:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Please do not misunderstand me because I appreciate your questions and your struggle. I do not wish to appear intellectually snobby or pretentious in my response to you. I have asked these questions and more for more than three decades. I alienated my secular yet culturally Jewish family when I chose to receive Christian Baptism at the age of 22, and I entered the Methodist seminary
at Drew University where I spent two intense years seeking answers. However, I am still asking and re-asking many of those questions 30 years later, but I am also receiving higher and more fulfilling answers which do NOT necessarily come in the form that one might expect. In other words, Life provides its own living metaphors and answers come from experiencing Life. One must not expect a question-answer or zero-one linguistic or logical response from ill-formed questions. Some inquiries are rational attempts to grasp the 'transrational.' The finite mind cannot embrace and comprehend the nature of Infinitude or even Infinitude's immanent manifestations.

In other words, it seems that you've been exposed to some fundamental doctrines which have proven short-sighted, contradictory and generally unfulfilling to your heart and mind. Good, because doctrines are petrifects of imperfectly sculpted ideas - including many of the doctrines which make up basic Christianity. In their exclusivist ways, Christianity has barred the insights from other great religions from elaborating the Truth of Christianity to many more people.

Personifying God in the manner that the Bible has is but one form of expressing spiritual Truth. However, unlike the Hindu Bhakta (devotional lover of God) or the Sufi lover of God, The Beloved), the average Christian takes these expressions literally instead of metaphorically. As one of my professors of New Testament once said to me: "Metaphor is more powerful than LSD," and I am seeing that all the time. Lots of people take huge doses of acid and come away with nothing transcendental, just some visual firewords, elevated mood and novel thoughts. Some people can be given a simple metaphor and their entire life suddenly falls into a meaningful focus!

Christian imperialism is a continuation of Christianity's origins as a world religion in the hand of the Roman Empire under Emperor Constantine who wanted one religion to bind together the empire. It was almost Mithraism, Contantine's own religion up until his death-bed conversion which was done only for political ends. That mentality of condemning all faiths, including the Judaism from which Christianity arose, is perhaps the biggest lie about Christianity as an organized religion - that it is the only true religion. Islam makes pretty much the same claim, but they are supposed to respect other Peoples of the Book, namely Jews and Christians. Christianity, as a collection of doctrines and dogmas has nothing to do with the Teachings that can be attributed to Jesus. In fact, most of the writings about Jesus and His teachings that didn't fit with the political agenda of Rome were burned. Christianity was built with writings that seemed to make the Church as an organization absolutely indispensible for salvation. Another lie. Fortunately, the Nag Hammadi library discovered in 1945 has returned to the world other 'takes' on 'The Way' of Jesus.

Christ is The Way and The Truth in ANY religion. "The Way" was the name for Christianity before the followers were known as Christians. The Tao in Taoism means The Way, and it turns out to be The SAME Way with regard to the Compassion-Wisdom that a human being in any tradition manifests who is in The Way (or, in Christ as the NT puts it). Do not expect most Christians to agree with this stance. It is a Gnostic Christian approach. Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Sikhs and Sufis can see this, but mainstream Christians are indoctrinated with this imperialistic thinking and cannot separate the historical Jesus with Christ the 'Anointed' title. To be 'Anointed' by God is to be Enlightened, Illumined, Self-Realized - the heir to every human being in The Way. It is not the title of one human - Jesus. This is the error of reading the mythos literally instead of mythically wherein it applies to ALL of us!

If you want a brilliant explanation about the design of the canonical New Testament, then buy John Shelby Spong's Liberating the Gospels. It is scholarly and I promise, very eye-opening. If your faith is real, the book will not harm it one bit, it will reconcile your faith with reason! This is Spong's most valuable contribution IMO.

Peace.

-MtG


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHerbus
...

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 1,477
Loc: Reading the map...
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6405990 - 12/29/06 03:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
That mentality of condemning all faiths, including the Judaism from which Christianity arose, is perhaps the biggest lie about Christianity as an organized religion - that it is the only true religion.




This is the only reason I am here posting this.

Do I think "Christianity" (which I am sorry, is not entirely constituted of literal-interpreting evangelists) is wrong?

No.

Do I think proclaiming everyone else is wrong, thus isolating yourself from the world... is stupid?

Yes.


As for the majority of people who responded to this...


Take a moment to realize the similarities in our ideas, and the differences in our expressions; and ask yourself what the Hell are we debating?


--------------------
...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBooby
Agent Mulder
 User Gallery
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: Herbus]
    #6406030 - 12/29/06 03:31 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

what the Hell are we debating?

Quote:

Herbus said:

Why would God, omniscient, omnipotent, CREATOR-OF-EVERYTHING construct such a silly succession of events which have been detailed to have occured, and to occur, in the Bible.






Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinematchbook
Photographer

Registered: 10/02/04
Posts: 854
Loc: Washington
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: Herbus]
    #6406114 - 12/29/06 04:02 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Herbus said:
As for the majority of people who responded to this...





Would you mind replying a little more personally to my answers and reply to you? You don't have to, but I want to know what you think.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 21 days, 17 hours
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: matchbook]
    #6407157 - 12/29/06 12:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

This thread is strange. :what:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBooby
Agent Mulder
 User Gallery
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6407281 - 12/29/06 02:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
This thread is strange. :what:




Are you living in interesting times?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 33,858
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: Booby]
    #6407345 - 12/29/06 04:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)


when to make war on the disaggreancers?

or

shall I turn the other cheek now bull winkle?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBooby
Agent Mulder
 User Gallery
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6407798 - 12/29/06 08:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Or will the real Chinaman please stand up


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHerbus
...

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 1,477
Loc: Reading the map...
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: Booby]
    #6408008 - 12/29/06 09:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Lol-- that's all I have to say.


--------------------
...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHerbus
...

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 1,477
Loc: Reading the map...
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: matchbook]
    #6408037 - 12/29/06 09:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Matchbook:

I appreciate your response, however, I do not think all of the info pertaining to "Cosmic presentation," or God presenting the infallibility of His way(s) to the rest of the Universe (using our example) is mentioned in the Bible...

I could be wrong, it happens. Something about the human genome.

Furthermore, according to literalist tradition it still leaves many "souls" "burning in Hell," the circumstances of "Hell" of which are up to question...

I think Christianity has many good things to say, and to the date my main conflicts with the institutionalized religion is its belief of only "One Pathway to God," effectively "discrediting and dismissing" all other spiritual beliefs; and recent* Christianity's assertions of "Hell."

* I say recent because "Hell" did not always, until more recent, medieval times... play a central role in the doctrine of Christianity.


--------------------
...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/16/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: The Biggest Question of Christianity... [Re: Herbus]
    #6408175 - 12/29/06 10:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I have a very interesting and informative link in my signature that concerns the actual "hell" used in the bible. Give it a look if you're interested, and use that information on whatever relatives are trying to scare you into belief.

http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/

It points out that the King James translation introduced the term Hell, and used it to replace 3 distinct words, which are: Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna. A 4th word that is replaced by Hell is Tartarus.
A short excerpt is at the bottom of my post.


If you really want to make them think things through then ask them some of the questions from this page

"If Hell is real and it is a place of eternally being separated from God, why does David say in the King James Bible, "Though I make my bed in Hell (Sheol) lo, Thou art there?"

"If Hell is real and describes a real place, why does the English word "Hell" come from a pagan source instead of the ancient Hebrew writings of the Bible? Why is the word "Hell" not found in the Jew's Bible which is the Christian's Old Testament? Furthermore, the word "Hell" has completely disappeared from the Old Testament Scriptures in most leading Bibles. Why? Because the best scholarship demands it. (The word "Hell" comes from the Teutonic "Hele" goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe. The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. See any Encyclopedia or dictionary for the origin of the word.) Seeing that the Bible is supposed to be "Holy," why have pagan religious words been added to our modern English Bibles? Please understand, the English word "Hell" and its concepts are NOT in the Hebrew nor Greek. They come into the English through Northern European mythologies, NOT from the roots of Christianity."

"If Hell is real and is the fate of all mankind because of Adam's transgression, if all are not saved through the last Adam, Jesus Christ, does that not make the transgression of the first Adam greater than the redeeming act of Jesus? (Rom. Chapter 5)"

"If Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures?"

"If Hell was real, why did Church leaders as late as the fourth century AD acknowledge that the majority of Christians believed in the salvation of all mankind?"

"If Hell was real and a place of no escape, why did the early church teach Jesus went to Hell (Hades), preached to them and led captivity captive? (Eph. 4:8,9; Psalm 68:18; 1 Peter 3:18-20)

"If Hell was real, why did the first complete presentation of Christianity (Origen, 220 A.D.) contain the doctrine of universal salvation?"

"If Hell was real, why didn't the church teach it until AFTER the church departed from reading the Bible in Greek and Hebrew, substituting Latin in its stead several centuries after Christ's death?"

"If Hell is real and a place of eternal separation from God, why would Paul the apostle say the goal of God's creative plan was to ultimately be "all IN all?" (1 Cor. 15:28)"


Anyway, there's tons more there, give it a look.




Quote:

Sheol Used of Unseen

In the Old Testament, the word for which hell is given in the King James Version is sheol, a word whose root meaning is “unseen.” The King James Version translates sheol as “hell” 31 times, “the grave” 31 times (since someone in the grave is unseen), and “the pit” three times.

Yet in the Old Testament sheol was not exclusively a place of punishment, for faithful Jacob was there (Gen. 37.35, 42.38, 44.29, 31). Righteous Job also longed for it in Job 14.13. David spoke of going to sheol in Ps. 49.15 and Jesus went there, Ps. 16.10 and Acts 2.24-31. In all these cases, these men were “unseen” because they were dead.

Sheol Used of National Judgments

Many times the Bible uses the word sheol of national judgments, i.e., the vanishing of a nation. In Isa. 14.13, 15, Isaiah said Babylon would go to sheol, and she vanished. In Ezek. 26.19-21, Tyre so vanished in sheol. Likewise, in the New Testament, in Mt. 11.23, 12.41, Lk. 10.15, and 11.29-32, Jesus said that Capernaum would so disappear. These nations and cities didn't go to a particular location, but they were going to disappear, and they did. They were destroyed. Thus, sheol is used commonly of national judgments in both the Old and New Testaments.
Hades Used of Anything Unseen

The New Testament equivalent of sheol is hades, which occurs only eleven times. Like its synonym sheol, the King James Version translates the word “hell.” However, the correct translation is hades, or the unseen. The Bible doesn't use hades exclusively for a place of punishment. Luke 16 pictures righteous Lazarus there. Acts 2.27, 31 says Jesus went there. In I Cor. 15.15, Paul used the same word when he said, “Death, where is thy sting?” In Rev. 1.18, Jesus said he had the controlling keys of death and hades, the unseen, and in Rev. 6.8, death and hades followed the pale horse. Finally, in Rev. 20.13, 14, death and hades gave up the dead that were in them, and were then cast into the lake of fire. These verses illustrate that hades refers to anything that is unseen.

Hades Used of National Judgment

Like its companion word in the Old Testament, hades was also plainly used of national judgments in the New Testament. In Mt. 11.23 and Lk. 10.15, Jesus said Capernaum would go down into hades, i.e., it was going to vanish. In Mt. 12.41 and Lk. 11.29-32, Jesus said his generation of Jews was going to fall.

About hades in Greek mythology, Edward Fudge said:


In Greek mythology Hades was the god of the underworld, then the name of the nether world itself. Charon ferried the souls of the dead across the rivers Styx or Acheron into this abode, where the watchdog Cerberus guarded the gate so none might escape. The pagan myth contained all the elements for medieval eschatology: there was the pleasant Elyusium, the gloomy and miserable Tartarus, and even the Plains of Asphodel, where ghosts could wander who were suited for neither of the above...The word hades came into biblical usage when the Septuagint translators chose it to represent the Hebrew sheol, an Old Testament concept vastly different from the pagan Greek notions just outlined. Sheol, too, received all the dead...but the Old Testament has no specific division there involving either punishment or reward. (Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes [Houston: Providential Press, 1982], p. 205.)

We need to make sure that our ideas concerning hades come from the Bible and not Greek mythology. We have no problem using sheol the way the Old Testament used it, or hades, as the New Testament used it. Both refer to the dead who are unseen, and to national judgments.




Edited by Disco Cat (12/29/06 10:45 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Christian Spiritual Experiences
( 1 2 all )
LordPeter 4,313 23 12/11/01 03:44 PM
by LOBO
* Christian Rationalism. An answer ? MAIA 1,329 2 08/04/02 02:08 PM
by MAIA
* From athiest to christian...
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
HidingInPlainSight 9,632 134 01/11/04 01:33 AM
by Frog
* christianity and philosophy Anonymous 800 6 08/11/03 09:30 PM
by Malachi
* To the Christians; From Enter
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
World Spirit 12,893 157 07/22/03 04:37 AM
by Funguy
* when did you first question...
( 1 2 all )
automanM 2,374 28 10/03/03 08:39 PM
by PDU
* All the big questions answered.....
( 1 2 3 all )
Attackgecko 4,258 42 11/12/03 01:29 PM
by ZenGecko
* Essential Gospel Doctrine fivepointer 1,054 4 10/22/02 07:57 AM
by World Spirit

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
8,526 topic views. 1 members, 1 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2023 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.033 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 15 queries.