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 silversoul7
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 Re: From athiest to christian...  [Re: jpod]
#2226656 - 01/07/04 05:28 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
I certainly agree that as adults, we can see clearly that this would not be just punishment. As applied to the previous posts however, I still believe that we are not on level with God and are therefore unfit to deem whatever punishment he may have as unfair.
It just seems to me like a cop-out to go with the old "God works in mysterious ways," argument. I mean, sure we can't fully understand it, but we have a thing called reason, which allows us to have a sense of fairness. To say that because we are not on God's level(IMO we are and don't realize it) that we can't say his judgements are unfair is bullshit. Besides, children can sometimes be right about their parents being unfair. It think you give children far too little credit.
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While I do believe that the full nature of God is beyond our understanding, my faith in Him also leads me to believe that parts of His nature have been revealed by His Word, i.e. the Bible. It tells me that He is love, not that He is a "sadistic asshole". I don't have the answers to all of the why's and how's, but I have faith in the truth of this.
That same book also tells you that he murdered all the first-born of Egypt, that he sends people to Hell if they don't believe in him, and that he's homophobe. Sounds like an asshole to me.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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 Frog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
#2226757 - 01/07/04 06:27 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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silversoul: Why can't you get past the bad side of humanity and see that we are all good as well as bad. And if God were to forgive us, he wouldn't need to send his son to die in order to do so. He's all-powerful. Why can't he just forgive us unconditionally? Instead he has to say, "Ok, I'll forgive you for not being as perfect as me so you won't have to be burned and tortured for all eternity, but only if you read this here book and believe every last word of it without question, even the parts that contradict each other."
Actually, we only go to hell now for rejecting CHrist, not for being bad. God DOES accept us, in spite of our imperfections. '
You're lucky that I'm not God! I'm much less tolerant with lying, cheating and stealing!!!
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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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jpod
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
#2226796 - 01/07/04 06:50 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Would you prefer I falsely claim to have absolute knowledge? I freely and openly admit that I do not know everything, but have faith in my belief that God does. My sense of reason is perfectly fine and intact, but I will not attempt to impose it on such an area of which I do not have full knowledge. Do you honestly believe that you possess enough knowledge that your sense of reason is more qualified than anyone else's to make a decision in every single situation in life?
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silversoul7
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
#2226939 - 01/07/04 08:19 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Actually, we only go to hell now for rejecting CHrist, not for being bad. God DOES accept us, in spite of our imperfections. '
Define "rejecting." I have no problem with Jesus. He was a good man, a nice guy, and very wise. He seems like the kind of guy I'd like to chill with. I just don't happen to believe he's the one and only Son of God. Also, I don't see why our fate for the rest of eternity would rest on how we feel towards one particular guy.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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silversoul7
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: jpod]
#2226955 - 01/07/04 08:28 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jpod said:
Would you prefer I falsely claim to have absolute knowledge? I freely and openly admit that I do not know everything, but have faith in my belief that God does.
When we are children, we often think our parents know everything, only to find out later in life just how little they know. Perhaps it is the same with God?
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My sense of reason is perfectly fine and intact, but I will not attempt to impose it on such an area of which I do not have full knowledge. Do you honestly believe that you possess enough knowledge that your sense of reason is more qualified than anyone else's to make a decision in every single situation in life?
No I don't. But when we talk about God and heaven and hell, we are talking about things for which there is no evidence anyway, so no one is really qualified to speak about them except in a theoretical sense. Neither of us knows that there is a God or heaven or hell. We are talking about concepts here, and to say that I'm not in a position to judge God's decisions because I'm inferior to him is bullshit because none of us even knows if God exists in the first place. How do you know God isn't a moron?
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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jpod
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
#2226996 - 01/07/04 08:55 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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I absolutely agree that none of us can physically prove God, Heaven, Hell, our own souls, or any other spiritual realm at all. So of course we are speaking theoretically in that sense. I thought that was assumed already. I agree that no man can prove God exists or does not exist with enough evidence to make every person believe either way. Therefore, whatever we choose, of course can only be a belief, not indisputable fact. I accept this, which is my I have repeatedly referred to 'my beliefs'. Keep this in mind when you read what I say. We are not in opposition here. So you must keep in mind when you refer theoretically to my God, the God I speak of, that He is all-powerful and all-knowing. Following such theory, it is easy to see why I would believe God is not a "moron".
Anyways, you are obviously an intelligent person, and seek your own truths and beliefs. I wish you peace with them. 
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Frog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
#2227124 - 01/07/04 09:51 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
Quote:
Actually, we only go to hell now for rejecting CHrist, not for being bad. God DOES accept us, in spite of our imperfections. '
Define "rejecting." I have no problem with Jesus. He was a good man, a nice guy, and very wise. He seems like the kind of guy I'd like to chill with. I just don't happen to believe he's the one and only Son of God. Also, I don't see why our fate for the rest of eternity would rest on how we feel towards one particular guy.
"Rejecting" as in not believing that Jesus was born and died for our sins. It's really simple. And I apologize, but I didn't make the rules. It seems harsh to me, too, but it's simple. Accept, on faith, that Jesus was born and died for our sins, or go to hell. After that, it's a piece of cake.
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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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HidingInPlainSight
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 Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
#2227681 - 01/08/04 07:52 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
Sure, a parent may have a child sit in a corner or spank them as punishment. But we're talking about all eternity here. I imagine it wouldn't take very long in Hell for a sinner to learn their lesson. So then how come they still have to remain there for the rest of eternity? If a parent spanked their child for the rest of that child's life, I believe that would be considered severe child abuse.
Silversoul7: The bible says (I'm non-denominational by choice, but parents are baptist, I go by the Bible.) anyone who has heard about God and chooses not to ask him to come into and be in control of their life, will go to hell for all eternity because him coming into your life and saving you is free, and turning that opportunity down is obsurd. It's kind of like someone saying, "Take this $100 or be shot.." and you not taking the $100 and getting shot. Why not take a free gift, and live forever in Heaven? Even though some may not believe in it, why not do it anyways, you aren't losing anything! And what if in the end, you find out there is a God, and you passed up that free opportunity. 
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fireworks_god
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How can you take something, not believing in it, and get eternal Heaven as your reward? That just doesn't make sense to me.
Then again, most literal interpretations of the Bible don't make sense to me. I mean, how many times have you struggled to explain something with words?
Seriously, now. Someone has a mindblowing experience, say on some mushrooms, and they go up to someone that has never had mushrooms or any parallel experiences. At a loss of words to accurately describe the experience?
Now... if anyone happened to experience God, encountered Him (if he is even a seperate entity as is the literal interpretation), how the hell would they explain it to others who haven't? Combine that with thousands of years of people fucking around with the writings that numerous people did, all these people who haven't truely had the experience spreading what they think it means and using it as a control device and others using it as this and that and that and this....
As usual, it isn't the words that are carrying the meaning, it is the intentions running through them. Read in between the lines, look at things from different perspectives, don't jump to any conclusions or assumptions...
Hehe, here is a salt packet, take it, Heaven is now yours.
Peace.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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Frog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: fireworks_god]
#2228040 - 01/08/04 11:10 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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How can you take something, not believing in it, and get eternal Heaven as your reward? That just doesn't make sense to me.
That's the thing. We really don't have any proof that God exists, and that Jesus was His son. That's why we have to go by "faith" alone. And once we accept Jesus as our saviour, we have to live as Christians. (No, not like the ones who joined the crusades or killed witches.)
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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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fireworks_god
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
#2228177 - 01/08/04 12:08 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Frog said:
How can you take something, not believing in it, and get eternal Heaven as your reward? That just doesn't make sense to me.
That's the thing. We really don't have any proof that God exists, and that Jesus was His son. That's why we have to go by "faith" alone. And once we accept Jesus as our saviour, we have to live as Christians. (No, not like the ones who joined the crusades or killed witches.)
But faith IS believing in something.
I can see living the good life, and all, but I can't see putting faith in something that we have no way of knowing either way. If someone walked up to me and said that Bob Dole has superior mind powers, and that if I believe in this and live accordingly, that I will go to Heaven, I'm not going to believe in it. There is no difference between this and God.
Peace.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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silversoul7
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Quote:
ledzepln86 said:
Silversoul7: The bible says (I'm non-denominational by choice, but parents are baptist, I go by the Bible.) anyone who has heard about God and chooses not to ask him to come into and be in control of their life, will go to hell for all eternity because him coming into your life and saving you is free, and turning that opportunity down is obsurd. It's kind of like someone saying, "Take this $100 or be shot.." and you not taking the $100 and getting shot.
Ah, so you admit that God is threatening me. I see...
Quote:
Why not take a free gift, and live forever in Heaven? Even though some may not believe in it, why not do it anyways, you aren't losing anything! And what if in the end, you find out there is a God, and you passed up that free opportunity.
I choose not to live my life based on fear, thank you very much.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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silversoul7
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 Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
#2228267 - 01/08/04 12:36 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Frog said:
How can you take something, not believing in it, and get eternal Heaven as your reward? That just doesn't make sense to me.
That's the thing. We really don't have any proof that God exists, and that Jesus was His son. That's why we have to go by "faith" alone. And once we accept Jesus as our saviour, we have to live as Christians. (No, not like the ones who joined the crusades or killed witches.)
So I have to have faith in something for which there is no proof, or else I'm doomed. Kinda reminds me of the book 1984, where they keep telling the guy that 2+2=5 if they want it to be, and after enough torture, he actually believes it. God sure is sounding like a major asshole here.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Frog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: fireworks_god]
#2228271 - 01/08/04 12:38 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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I am not even going to dignify your analogy with a response. 
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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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silversoul7
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
#2228280 - 01/08/04 12:41 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Frog said:
I am not even going to dignify your analogy with a response.
Why not? Seems reasonable enough to me.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Frog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
#2228299 - 01/08/04 12:46 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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You guys, you're comparing belief in Bob Dole's superior mind powers and going to heaven, with belief in God and Jesus and going to heaven. It doesn't work for me. If you're trying to make a point, please make a better one. I can't argue this one. Or explain the point you're trying to make.
The difference, to me, seems so obvious, that I just can't bring myself to practice my typing skills on this one. 
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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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silversoul7
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
#2228319 - 01/08/04 12:51 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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It seems so obvious to you, but you obviously can't say why it's obvious. I think the thing is that this analogy shows just how ridiculous your beliefs seem to us, and you don't want to think your beliefs are ridiculous, so you claim it's a dumb analogy. Sorry to be an asshole here, but I just don't see why it's a bad analogy, and if you can show me why it is, I'd be much obliged.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Frog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
#2228364 - 01/08/04 01:02 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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I am getting your point, and I am not saying it's a dumb analogy. I'm saying it's an obvious analogy, one not worth refuting. So I was hoping if there was a deeper point you were making, make it, because sometimes I have difficulty reading in-between the lines. Otherwise, if the analogy clearly states the point you are trying to make, I get it, but I think it's so obvious that I don't need to practice my typing skills by refuting it myself.
I don't think your beliefs are ridiculous, silversoul. I don't think anyone's belief's on this forum are ridiculous. Everyone here seems pretty intelligent to me, for the most part. If you really believed that Bob Doles' brain would get you into heaven, I would have serious doubts about your intelligence, but I know you were just making a point, or supporting firework's point.
And I can actually see how it would seem silly to someone that I would believe in God, of whom you think there is no concrete proof. Based on my life experiences, and my reasoning, and studies, I have chosen to believe in God.
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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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silversoul7
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
#2228374 - 01/08/04 01:05 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Let me put it this way: I am the one and only Son of God. Jesus is a false idol. Worship me on faith alone and you shall be rewarded in the hereafter. If you do not, you will be banished to eternal torture in the Lake of Fire. So what's it gonna be? Me or Jesus? You willing to risk eternal damnation to follow Jesus?
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Frog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
#2228392 - 01/08/04 01:11 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Are you the anti-christ? j/k.
If you come to me out of the blue, the way you are right now, and say what you say, I'm not even going to give you a second thought.
If you had been around for a while, performing miracles, doing good deeds, etc., and then claimed you were the son of God, I might have to ask around about you.
But see, what's difficult about arguing this point is that it's not real. We could argue "what if" all day, but it's kind of pointless because the "what ifs" aren't real. You're not the son of God.
If your point is that my beliefs seem ridiculous to you because I have nothing concrete by which to support my beliefs, I get your point. You have a right not to believe what I believe.
(To quote fireworks): Peace
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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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