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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Attackgecko]
    #2056188 -

Damn, i had totally forgot about posting on here. Anyways i skimmed the responses and i'll make a few comments. First despite the title of my post i dont actually claim to have figured it all out. In actuality these are just my ideas, and i wouldn't even go so far as to say that most of them if any are even beliefs, just ideas, theories. I think this, i think that, i know nothing. Ok moving on...
Looks like the free will stuff was what grabbed the most attention and this is the one thing that i said that i MIGHT go so far as to say i believe it and that it is as much a fact as anything can be, and from many of the posts i read it looks like most people are not thinking deeply enough about WHY they make one choice verses another. So you have two paths, which will you choose? whatever path you want right? and it doesnt matter why you choose it as long as you do get to choose? um...wrong atleast on the why part. Why is all important here. We must ask why this or why that, why did i choose left instead of right? there is always a reason, always a cause and as long as there is a cause then there is no true free will. Having options is unimportant if there is always something that makes you choose one option over another, whatever causes you to make your "choice" is that which is in fact robbing you of your free will. There is always a reason, a cause for you wanting one thing over the other. People say we/they have free will but within the confines of physics, but the kind of free will most people are saying they have is exactly that kind which would have to allow you to defy the laws of physics. There is no in between you either have complete free will or you have none. to say i have limited free will would be a contradiction. How ever varied and subtle the forces are that cause us to make one choice over another, they are still forces, and they still CAUSE you to make one choice over another, and there are causes for those causes and so on. There are causes for every desire even, which in turn cause our choices. Even randomness is a cause. If at a moment in time quantum effects influence the environment (and me or you) enough to CAUSE one choice verses another then even in randomness we are robbed of our free will because of conditions we have no control over. Even if it is the interplay between the causes that caused our desire and quantum randomness then still the sum of these CAUSE us to choose one or the other. Even if we had control over conditions there would always be a cause of some kind or line of causes and effects that would MAKE us exert our "control" over conditions one way over another. Someone said something about always having the option to jump out the window if they wanted to as long as the window was there. But why would you make that choice? because you wanted to right? well what CAUSED you to want to? and what CAUSED that CAUSE that MADE you want to? This is why i said that true free will is the ability to make a choice with out regard to any cause, this would be defying the laws of physics, and actually if you are making choices with out cause you would be making random choices, and randomness is not free will either. There is nothing inbetween complete free will which would indeed allow you to defy the laws of physics(it would have to or else it would be limited free will which is a contradiction) and not having free will at all, because once again if something caused your desire and that desire in turn causes you to make one choice verses another then there in no free will, only will, only what you will do and what you wont, only what is and is not. The only other option is if it is possible to defy the laws of physics simply by believing you can, ala NEO. This to my knowledge has never been done, though even so one could argue that no one that we know of has yet believed enough to do it and that it is still a possibility. Then what CAUSES us not to believe enough? :wink: and if i believe enough what CAUSED me to do so? Even if i manage to believe enough to defy the laws of physics it looks as if i had no choice in the matter, because there is something/s that causes me to do so :wink: So in the end if i some how manage to obtain "free" will it looks as if i had no choice in the matter, or even in how i exercise this free will. Because even if i manage to break free of the they system and can somehow defy the laws of physics now, i'm still subject to my past, and all the causes and effects that led me to become who i am, and that person is in fact destined to do what he is going to do :wink:
Ok so thats enough about free will, short of refusing to believe it, i see no logical way around my arguements, trust me i wish i did. The other thing i am going to comment on is conscienceness. I am retracting my statement that it is a form of energy, the fact is i dont know what it is, but if everything is energy, then even the effects energy have on the rest of energy would have to be energy wouldn't they? so i'm inclined to still think that it is probably some strange form of energy, like kinetic energy which is an effect  generated by other forms of energy,(even matter is a form of energy). Whats really intresting is to wonder if without the "energy" of conscienceness could the rest of the energy still exist? and quantum physics seems to be going in the direction that NO, it couldn't, that it is conscienceness(the observer) that collapses the wave function causing one set of probabilities to become real verses another. The really big question is...is there some ultimate perciever who keeps things "real" when we arent looking? And would this perciever have to be inside the system, a part of the system, or could it be the system itself? could the collective conscienceness of all sentient beings be the conscienceness of the system, which in turn is the ultimate perciever that keeps things "real" when we arent looking? Ok thats enough for now, i dont want people heads to explode....i wonder why i dont want that? and i wonder what causes the cause that makes me not want that...??????BOOM!!!!!SPLAT!!!!....
Sincerely,
that which is and has no choice but to be. 

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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Attackgecko]
    #2056453 -

that was hella long, but a good read

"There is always a reason, a cause for you wanting one thing over the other. People say we/they have free will but within the confines of physics, but the kind of free will most people are saying they have is exactly that kind which would have to allow you to defy the laws of physics. There is no in between you either have complete free will or you have none. to say i have limited free will would be a contradiction. How ever varied and subtle the forces are that cause us to make one choice over another, they are still forces, and they still CAUSE you to make one choice over another, and there are causes for those causes and so on. There are causes for every desire even, which in turn cause our choices."

yes yes yes!!!! we confuse the ideas of free will versus freedom within a closed system. we can't will things out of the blue, nor are our decisions actually ours to "own" since everything happens for a reason which is undetermined by us. there is a cause for the choices we make, and furthermore what ever choice we make determines the next cause and which determines our next choice. now I do think we have freedom within a closed system because identifying a closed system recognizes that we don't have "total freedom." something or some idea had to kick start our cause and effect system that we are under. we all operate under a closed sytem, do we not?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: kaiowas]
    #2095782 -

i reread this cause i was bored, and thought of something to comment on...
Ok first i'm not sure what you mean by freedom in a closed system. But if that freedom is limited, even by the fact that the system is "closed" then then thats probably not really freedom, or atleast wouldn't allow freewill. the idea of limited freedom is a logical contradiction. True freedom is utter randomness, because there is nothing between determinism and randomness. If its determined.. its caused, thus no freewill, or real freedom, you had to do what you did, because you were caused to do what you did, if it is randomn then you get true freedom, because true freedom is randomness, but no free will because you can't exert your will over randomness. But i'm begining to believe that even causality is an illusion that comes about from our in ability to percieve the system as a whole. At any one time we can only experience or percieve so much, so it looks to us like a sequence of events is occuring, thus a line of cause and effect, but in actuallity i think that everything is happening, has happened, and will happen all at the same time. The system just is, always has been and always will be. Everything is everywhere and everything is happening at once. This would mean that there is in actuality no such thing as an arrow of time, just a percieved illusion of what we call time,(and it has recently been argued in a paper that got quite a bit of attention that in order to actually percieve time there would have to be no time) also it would probably mean that motion itself is a perceptial illusion. We are experiencing ourself, everything is one thing, or no-thing, but the very act of "experiencing" implies that it is a process, a sequence of events, but since what we are experiencing is essentially ourselves, that is an illusion, because we already are, we always were, and we always will be. only by being outside the system could we observe the system as a whole, all at once, but we cant get out, we are the system, or a part of it atleast, so we are stuck with the illusion that things are unfolding, but they arent, everything just is. Atleast thats starting to become my opinion, it seems to be the only way to resolve most of the paradoxs. its kinda like how we have our image of self, and then there is how others percieve us, both realities are subjectively true, but we cant experience both at the same time fully, thus we may encounter contradictions, or paradoxs regarding our image of self verses their image of us. We cant fully experience ourselves as others experience us, and they cant fully experience us because they are not us. Neither of us can step out of the system, so both of us cannot fully experience the system as it actually is. We are stuck with these illusions because the system cannot step outside of itself. ofcourse thats the ultimate goal of enlightenment, to transcend the system and experience our true nature fully. Its open to debate if anyone even buddha, or christ were able to transcend completely in life, maybe in death though, who can say. I'd wager even the most enlightened only get a partial glimpse of the ultimate truth of being.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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