Home | Community | Message Board


Kratom Eye
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 14 years, 6 days
questions for the atheist.
    #785355 - 07/30/02 12:30 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

i will not defend my faith. i simply ask questions. cool?

what is existence?


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
not an atheist, but what the hey [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #785372 - 07/30/02 12:54 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

existence is mearly an individual's perception of reality


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 14 years, 6 days
Re: not an atheist, but what the hey [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #785402 - 07/30/02 01:41 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

sso let me make sure i undersatnd you right. if you perceive yourself in any possible way, be it spiritual or physical, real, or an illusion...you still perceive SOMETHING about yourself, and therefore that is existence? is that what you are saying?


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSheepish
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/02/02
Posts: 10,137
Loc: Exile
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #785412 - 07/30/02 01:56 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Existence I guess is experiencing. Bit of a tricky thing to explain however.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 14 years, 6 days
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: Sheepish]
    #785414 - 07/30/02 02:01 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

so what is it? is existence perceiving? or experiencing?
is it something you see and feel? or something you do? or is it both? an all around experience of every perceiving sense and every experiencing feeling?


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,275
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 6 months, 6 days
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #785416 - 07/30/02 02:05 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Existence is simply to be, it's the basic idea with wich we build reality, a rock exists because it is a rock.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSheepish
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/02/02
Posts: 10,137
Loc: Exile
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #785420 - 07/30/02 02:11 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Perception must be the greatest role in experiencing. We can see that this is happening, we feel the changes, and so on. But, I have often thought "how do we know we exist, if there is no one else to prove it". Everything we do in life seems to need some sort of confirmation that we are doing it. We breathe, and you feel the air go into your lungs; we see the colours, and our mind interepts them and so on. Usually based on the 5 senses. However, it gets tricky because when you dream, you undergo the senses, but only in your head. Yet, it feels as we exist at that moment.
But we also exist merely because we just exist. We just have to assume that we are existing.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 14 years, 6 days
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: Sheepish]
    #785426 - 07/30/02 02:19 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

so basically you both said the same thing from different angles. okay good. "to exist is simply to exist."
"existence is TO BE"
cool braa, so to be is to exist.

why do we exist?


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSheepish
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/02/02
Posts: 10,137
Loc: Exile
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #785474 - 07/30/02 03:56 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Why we exist is a bit harder to grasp. No one knows entirely why. But I'm happy enough to know that I just exist right now. But try asking me these questions in the midst of a solid trip. It's a shame no one has these kind of discussions with me when I'm tripping.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: MAIA]
    #785493 - 07/30/02 04:35 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Don't be so sure a rock is just a rock, I have seen a rock change it's regular form once (under the influence of shrooms) he he, But you may argue that it was me who change, but for me in that moment the rock changed, so it is all how we perceive things that makes the universe.
Did you know that bees see in the ultraviolet spectrum, I beet there view of the world is completely different that ours.
You see a rock is not just a rock, is energy, atoms held together, it moves (electrons spinning) different compositions of crystals etc, etc, and perhaps things that we still have no idea.
You see a rock is a miracle of creation. But is all how you perceive it, and our level of awakening.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSheepish
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/02/02
Posts: 10,137
Loc: Exile
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: LOBO]
    #785501 - 07/30/02 04:46 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Isn't it crazy to think that everything is made out of tiny little atoms?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,275
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 6 months, 6 days
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: LOBO]
    #785504 - 07/30/02 04:52 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The rock will continue to exist independently of the perception you have about it, the difference between the rock and you is that you are alive and you have intelligence but both exist. Existence, life and intelligence are the main factors that distinguish the several planes of reality.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #785517 - 07/30/02 05:07 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Existence implies "existence of an object" something I am beginning to think is a fallacy. That is, static objects don't exist. Its the Taoist line of thinking- Everything is realitive. Example from previous post:

Evil depends on Good to exist (If there was no evil, how would we be able to gauge what is good? They're relative to one another)- the absence of one entails the absence of the other- their ultimate interdependence on each other suggests that neither ever existed unto itself- neither exists (inherently)

You can apply this to yourself also, which I think is what you are getting at. What you are depends on knowing what you are not to exist- the absence of one entails the absence of the other. They are like the peaks and valleys of a wave- one existing without the other, the implication that you are a stand alone thing existing unto yourself, makes no sense.

So what is existence? It is a fallicious assumption we make that things "are" by themselves.


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: buttonion]
    #785623 - 07/30/02 07:00 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

buttonion: That is, static objects don't exist.

Well, considering our knowledge (us being our species) of physics, I'd agree- atoms are essentially energy. But I think you're trying to refute objective reality. The nature of the word "static" is rooted in our everyday experience with objects consisting of atoms (ourselves included), which we all know are NOT static... they're just vibrating on the slower end of the matter/energy spectrum. I would say that since "static" refers to our everyday experience with the "hard stuff" (or objective reality, if you will), then "static" objects DO exist.

Its the Taoist line of thinking- Everything is relative.
We've gone over this, but you must've skipped class .
The statement 'everything is relative' is an absolute statement, therefore it is false if it is true. I love this stuff.

So what is existence? It is a fallicious assumption we make- that things "are" by themselves.

I don't understand how you can make this jump. My knowledge of physics (some of the experiments I have done myself) tells me that I am NOT making an assumption. I feel my knowledge is justified (and therefore true) by my own PERSONAL experience with certain physics experiments. It's more than most have to go on.

As far as the good and evil comment... I think evil is just a lazy and/or selfish mind, that's all. There really is no ultimate evil.

________________________________________________________________________

Two questions posed by the original poster:
1. What is existence?

I'd say that existence could refer to TWO things: subjective and objective reality.
I'm not sure which one you are looking for.
I think humans are in a unique situation. We exist as objects and we are aware of this subjectively. Some of us are even objectively aware of our subjective experience.


2. Why do we exist?

I'd say this is the ultimate epistemological question.
Some philosophers have argued that such questions are meaningless in that it assumes that we humans can actually figure out the answer. If you look at the question like that, then it's true- we can't prove how the universe started or what came before it or whatever.

I don't look at the question as they do though. I see Zen.
My answer to "why do we exist?": because we can.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: Sclorch]
    #785650 - 07/30/02 07:30 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

My answer to "why do we exist?"...

So that we can have endless meaningless arguments on the Shroomery as to why we exist...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineHunabKu
Stranger
Registered: 12/27/01
Posts: 18
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #785727 - 07/30/02 08:35 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Existence is the conception of physical things and phenomena as transient manifestations of an underlying fundamental nature. This is not only a basic element of quantum field theory, but also a basic element of the Eastern world view ... the intuition behind the physicist's interpretation of the subatomic world, in terms of the quantum field, is closely paralleled by that of the Eastern mystic who interprets his or her experience of the world in terms of an ultimate underlying reality. So I can finish my Cheerios in the morning and face the empty bowl and suggest that I call the ultimate reality "Emptiness" or "the void" and affirm that it is a living Void which gives birth to an infinite variety of forms which it sustains and, eventually, reabsorbs. Thus I am the bowl and the Cheerio ... as above, so below. As for the Why of existence. It is an unknowable. A realm of believers and non-believers. An X. As the Hell's Angels maxim states: "Those that know, don't tell. Those that tell, don't know.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 14 years, 6 days
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: Sclorch]
    #785728 - 07/30/02 08:36 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

so existence is subjective and objective.
we exist because we can.

was there a start to existence? or has everything always existed?


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: Sclorch]
    #785818 - 07/30/02 09:17 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I would say that since "static" refers to our everyday experience with the "hard stuff" (or objective reality, if you will), then "static" objects DO exist.

So you are saying that if there is an objective reality that underlies our perceptions, then this is a ?static object.? To be honest, I?m not quite sure where I stand on the whole ?does objective reality exist?? debate. As of now, I see it as a pointless question about some ?thing? that we do not currently have the capacity to comprehend. I don?t know? if you think that this is crucial to your argument then let me know.



We've gone over this, but you must've skipped class .
The statement 'everything is relative' is an absolute statement, therefore it is false if it is true. I love this stuff.


That?s an interesting point that I really have not thought about. I guess when I say ?everything is relative? I am referring to those things that are commonly assumed to be static objects are actually dependent on other ?objects? for their supposed existence. Examples of such things include ?tree?, ?self?, ?evil?, and ?planet?. Another way to think of it is those things that are the subjects of our sentences.

I don?t consider a proposition, or a statement about the relationship between things (e.g., everything is relative), to fall into the category of ?static objects? that I am talking about. Other examples are ?God exists?, ?I am on fire?, and ?I?m really not sure which I like the best: weed or shrooms.?

So I don?t see that the statement is false if it is true, because the proposition does not fall into the category of ?objects? that I am referring to. The statement itself might imply that the things that it refers to do exist, but since our language necessitates the use of a subject, I think this is about the best we can do to express the idea.



"So what is existence? It is a fallicious assumption we make- that things "are" by themselves."

I don't understand how you can make this jump.



Maybe the distinction between conventional existence and inherent existence is where the confusion lies. I probably should have clarified this. The inherent existence of an object suggests that the thing exists in and of itself, and is no way dependent on anything else (e.g., soul). To acknowledge that something exists by convention is to appreciate the arbitrariness of our delineation of this particular chunk of reality as a thing, something that is likely determined by the way humans were designed to perceive (e.g., the color green and the flatness of this chunk sets it off from this other chunk that is narrow and brown, let?s call everything that conforms to these specs a leaf). I think that the common use of the word existence is inheret existence with no appreciation for conventional existence.

So you are saying that things ?are? by themselves? What thing exists by itself?


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,275
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 6 months, 6 days
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #785828 - 07/30/02 09:24 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

was there a start to existence? or has everything always existed?

As there isn't an objective answer, it all depends on what you believe. If we assume our reality/universe/existence had a start (big bang or whatever), is up to you to assume what existed before that start and is up to you to believe if something or "somebody" had to do with the creation of what we call reality.
Most used reasoning is to give too much importance to anything that comes up explaining the paradox of existence, those people relly on more questions and paradoxes instead of trying to find answers by themselfs, they try to justify their existence by creating beings/deities/objects wich are by themself unexplainable and they use them to try understanding what is unexplainable (i.e. religions), i refuse such reasoning, i believe we have evolved enough to believe in our own essense as a door, to reverse this whole subjectivity in something objective, trying to perceive the unexplainable without the unexplainable.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator
 Arcade Champion: Skeleton Park, Space Hunter

Registered: 07/10/99
Posts: 6,486
Re: questions for the atheist. [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #785866 - 07/30/02 09:41 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Super! You came up with a funky question to ask. Most athiest(me certainly) would welcome any ideas with open arms. Take myself for example if you are given the oportunity to gravitate to any religion you want, unless your family id part of one you dont choose any.
I ask you now. Does god have eyes? how many does he have if he does and what colour?


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Fellow Atheists / Agnostics
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Atheist 6,390 98 08/31/07 04:51 PM
by RedNucleus
* the Muslim and the Atheist Zahid 975 9 07/26/02 04:13 PM
by Anonymous
* Static electricity SpecialEd 824 15 03/25/04 01:31 PM
by gnrm23
* can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Anonymous 12,118 157 12/21/04 08:31 AM
by deafpanda
* static rasta 1,381 15 10/02/02 02:18 PM
by Sclorch
* Some Christians and the Atheist
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Swami 8,807 119 07/31/02 09:19 AM
by Sclorch
* 33 Questions that will make you an atheist
( 1 2 3 all )
top 2,955 46 11/20/05 04:47 AM
by detergent
* Are Atheists __________? Indeed, they are.
( 1 2 3 4 ... 9 10 all )
World Spirit 9,096 190 12/20/02 10:13 PM
by RebelSteve33

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, DividedQuantum
3,166 topic views. 0 members, 6 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Phytoextractum
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.075 seconds spending 0.003 seconds on 16 queries.