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objective reality does not exist
    #991682 -

What I'm about to say is probably not anything new,and is just my opinion.I'm sure other people in the past have had this idea and elaborated on it better than I ever could. OBJECTIVE REALITY DOES NOT EXIST,EVERYTHING YOU HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED HAS BEEN TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE.People have different opinions on the same subjects because they are not experiencing exactly the same reality.In other words,your brain does not just passively percieve reality,it creates it. If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it,it does not fall. Quantum mechanics seems to support this in the idea that a sub atomic particle does not even exist before its observed.The very act of dectecting a particle can bring it into existence. Does anybody know the name of this theory in philosophy,metaphysics,etc...? If you think I'm a crazy moron,please let me know by responding. Can you think of any problems with this theory?


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #991748 -

welcome to the real meaning of life, there is none, there is nohthing at all, nothing exists, everythign we experience is only our brain processing electrical signals, we dont see light, we get coded messages from electrical impulses from our eyes, there is nothing real outside our perception of reality, im very glad that you have come to this conclusion, you wouldnt beleive how many people just wont understand, try to explain it to them, they always come back to the i can see hear touch it so it is real, but it isnt, congratulations

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: huboldium]
    #991757 -

I the internet.

Edited by dee_N_ae (10/25/02 12:43 AM)

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: huboldium]
    #991779 -

yeah, i can definatley relate to what you said.i've had this discussion with some of my friends and they look at me like i'm insane or something, and then they change the subject. sometimes i think "what's the fuckin' point" and i want to shoot myself or something. the thing that keeps me going is "where do these perceptions of reality come from?" The problem with humans is that they try to express everything through language in a rational way.Maybe the ultimate "truth" (whatever the hell that is) is not rational and scientific. I wish I had some 'shrooms or acid to think about these things in an altered state of consiousnes.I'll probably just find more questions and fewer answers though.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #991813 -

Must be time to once again drudge up the Swami "Rock to the Back of the Head Challenge". For a short while anyway, it seems to quell the "There is no objective reality" line.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #991816 -

I just happened to stumble across this post from the front page of the Shroomery, and although like you said, it may be nothing new, but for me you just put into words the philosophy I have been sensing my entire life, that I could never quite articulate, and I would love to read more on this idea of objective/subjective reality. Are there good resources? I haven't began to search as I was so excited by this post that I haven't yet had the chance. I've always maintained that the world is perceived individually by all who interpret it, and that the world is different to each of our perceptions. The possibility that quantam mechanics even supports similar ideas is exciting. I appreciate you bringing the subject up, for it has opened my eyes to the possibility that there are people out that think or theorize about reality in much of the same sense as myself. Hope to hear more from you all soon.

Edited by invalidreality (10/25/02 01:22 AM)

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: Swami]
    #991817 -

can you tell me what you're talking about? i'm new to this forum. i would love you hear you thoughts swami.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

Edited by grandmasterfat (10/25/02 01:23 AM)

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #991831 -

It is not very deep and is just as it sounds.

People sputter on about interpretation and how we create our own reality and of the infinite space between atoms and how everything is just energy in flux, etc.

I propose taking a nice fist-sized rock and cracking any volunteers to show me how different their interpretation of the event was. I am not violent and there is no malice. A machine could be used. All would feel pain and have tissue damage.

A better modern example is the sniper victims. They all died or were severely wounded by objective reality. The objective reality that the human body cannot stand up to a several grams of metal hurtling at 2000 mph no matter what your belief system is.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: Swami]
    #991869 -

I see what you are saying and you have a very valid point, however,what about psychedelic experiences? Anybody that's ever taken a moderate to heavy dose of acid of mushrooms knows that you will often have visuals that are very different from the other people you trip with. You can say, "yeah,it's just the drug giving those people hullucinations,nothing more." That doesn't really say much though. These drugs really just act like chemicals that are allready in your brain. Your brain chemistry is in a constant state of flux and nobody has exactly the same brain structure. So there is no true,default brain pysiology. Everything you percieve is through your brain.
The thing about the rock. You only "know" what people are describing about the rock when it breaks through their words, you can never get inside their "head" and see what they are truly experiening. Huxley said, "...we are all island universes...."
And another example-the salem witch trials. You and I would probably laugh at the idea of witches with supernatural powers,however, many of the people there truly believed that they had a curse on themselves,so much so that many people actually had physical symptoms.

After I wrote all that I am more confused than ever before. Drugs are objective material things that can change subjective experience. I don't think your arguement was satisfactory enough,however. It didn't really say too much. I don't mean that as a flame or anything, I just think something like this can never really be proven. I'm not usually one for faith, this is something I truly believe in though. I would like to hear anything else you have to say about the subject.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #991871 -

What I was really trying to say is that I don't think reality has any existence outside of our minds. We tend to interpret realily the same because are minds are similar. Have you ever read "The Origin of Conciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind"?


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #991880 -

I agree with you. We all experience a personalized, subjective reality. As for Swami's "rock to the back of the head" challenge, that only proves that our subjective realities are interconnected - it is not proof of objective reality.


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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #991962 -

Schrodinger's cat
i belive that is the theory you are looking for

it goes a little something like this....

ya got a box with a cat within it, along with the cat there is a vial of poison gas (pick your fav poison gas.... whatever u want) now above this vial of poison gas there is a hammer attached to a sensor, the sensor is activated by an electron....

Sooooo if an electron strikes the sensor, the hammer is released, and the vial is crushed, releaseing the poison gas, killing the cat.......
thats the mechanics....

now we throw in the variable....
the last piece of the puzzle is the atom..... along with the aforementioned aparatus an atom is placed inside the box... this atom has a 50/50 chance of decaying and releaseing an ELECTRON within a certain time frame.....

the whole box is sealed up, and you just wait.....

so heres the fun part....
time expires.....
theres a 50/50 chance that the cat is alive
theres a 50/50 chance that the cat is dead
but untill you OPEN THE BOX and SEE for YOURSELF, the cat is neither alive nor dead.... or perhaps it is both alive AND dead!

one theory being that untill we subjectivly experience something all possibilities are true, once we percieve something, it crystalizes in our "reality" and we collapse the wave....

our entire reality is made up of waves or vibrations....
its intersting to note that occult theory has been saying this since the dawn of man, and "modern" science is also saying the same thing, yet noone seems to make the connection between the 2.....

[hyp]

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #993095 -

The Tao is so vast, that when you use it, something is always left.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: hyper_dermic]
    #993156 -

The effects of quantum uncertainty do not relate to macroscopic objects. Because the probability relates to a single particle the combined probability is very small. Technical terms: a system looses cohesion as it becomes larger.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #993587 -

Well this is exactly what inspired me to post the question about subatomic particles the other day. I was wondering if reality was created by being observed basically. You claim here that "subatomic particles do not exist before they are perceived." Anyone have anything to say about this?

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #993603 -

true grand master....this is also why good and evil do not actually exist. I mean, a lot of people maythink they are doing good. Hitler for one, thought he was doing good, by isolateing the arian race. but we thought he was evil so we killed him, he prob thought we where evil

who's to say who's right? we are all jsut men, sqeezed outta of mothers cunt (well some of us where cut out)

good and evil is relative, there for the concept is faulty

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: ]
    #994537 -

You claim here that "subatomic particles do not exist before they are perceived." Anyone have anything to say about this?

It's not entirely like this. The particle exists before we observe it (otherwise, why would we try to observe it?) but it doesn't exist in a specific location until we observe it. We can only say that it is PROBABLY in a certain location or state, and quantum mechanics tells us that because of this probability a particle will exist in every location and every state possible until we observe it. Somehow the particle "chooses" one possibility out of the many when we observe it.

Quantum weirdness


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: trendal]
    #994600 -

The concept of existance is a construct of the human mind. Sort of like gender. There aren't male and female electrons. From what I've seen, the subatomic level plays by weird rules. Sort of like the human mind, or Linux. Subatomic particles are not matter as we understand it. They're more of mathematical abstractions.


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Please remove all dollar signs from my listed contact information

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #994618 -

In reply to:
I am more confused than ever before.



Grandmasterfat ~

Physics explains the objective reality we all share.

Metaphysics attempts to explain individual perceptions of
humankind's shared physical reality.

The grey area is in between the two. Mankind has been attempting
to explain the "meaning of life" (the purpose of physical existence)
for millenia. We have developed laws of physics in order to have
a foundation for our collective reality.

History has shown us that belief systems (commonly held ideas
deemed as fact) are in a constant state of flux, and despite mankind's
best efforts to control the life experience, there will always be the
scientist, explorer, inventor, theologian who will challenge common
belief systems and create new realities.

Bottom line is YOUR life experience is uniquely yours. When your physical
body ceases to exist, communicating your life experience will then become
a tad bit more difficult. Essentially, when you die, you take your world, your
universe with you. Your perception of life will no longer be articulated among
the living (those still experiencing physical reality).

I believe the strong drive for creation (offspring, art, music, sports, etc.) is
the individual's attempt at preserving their subjective take on physical reality.
We all know the body we inhabit is a temporary condition. The fear of the
unknown (death) drives us to preserve our individual (light and dark) experiences
of life. (Then again, some people just don't give a crap and don't want to
share their experience with their fellow human being.)

Hope this ramble made some sense. All the answers... all the secrets... all the
wonders of the universe exist within each and every one of us. Explore and
enjoy. Strive to bring inspiration and idea into physical reality for all to enjoy.

Peace to Everyone,

Peaceful Nomad


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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: trendal]
    #994662 -

True trendal,
you know your quantem theory well...
so to apply this to the macrocosom what your saying is ALL realties are possible untill we observe/expirence it, then 1 single reality is observed, and it is crystallized in our reality...

as to what you said before about quantem theorys not applying with macorscopic particals (e.g. our reality)

i belive that realtivity is wrong... our picture of the macrocosom is wrong... thats why theres the conflict with quantem physics... one theory has to be false (or both)
i belive that quantem physics apply in our lives all the time.... its the lowest commen denomiator (that we know of)

[hyp]

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: hyper_dermic]
    #995375 -

i think a lot of the people doing cutting edge physics like string theory were probably acid heads at one time or another. it seems like there is a ton of overlap between the "new physics" and the psychedelic experience. does anybody know of any good books that try to combine the two? i've read the tao of physics...it seems to combine the mystical experience and physics pretty well,but it's not quite what I'm looking for. did tim leary write anything about the subject?

about quantum mechanics-isn't it true that sub-atomic particles are just models and don't really "exist" in everyday terms? I've read a few books about quantum theory and this is the impression i got...i'm just a teenager though,what the hell do i know?


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

Edited by grandmasterfat (10/26/02 07:24 PM)

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #995633 -

yes it does you fuck

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #996455 -

In reply to:
...i'm just a teenager though,what the hell do i know?



Hehhe im not a teenager anymore, yet i still say that all the time... (minus the teenager part)

to quote op ivy
-all i know is i dont know nothing

[hyp]

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: hyper_dermic]
    #996719 -

so to apply this to the macrocosom what your saying is ALL realties are possible untill we observe/expirence it, then 1 single reality is observed, and it is crystallized in our reality...

There's a constant in quantum physics called "h-bar" which determines the probability (in a way) of certain quantum events from occuring. It is very VERY small for our universe, so acts of quantum weirdness can only realistically occur on the smallest of scales (individual particles). For example, there is a very real and demonstratable possibility that an electron, when fired at a barrier it should not be able to penetrate, will "tunnel" through the barrier and pop out on the other side. It's called quantum tunnelling and has been experimentally proven.

There is also a very real possibility that you will spontaneously tunnel through the earth and end up on the other side. A very real possibility...but a VERY small one. On average you would have to wait much longer than the life of the universe for such an event to occur. It would involve EVERY PARTICLE in your body spontaneously tunnelling through the earth at the exact same time. There's a hell of a lot of particles in your body, so when you add up the probabilities the total becomes very very small.

Sorry I went nuts on example there :smile:

But hopefully this helps. Quantum effects are not really seen in macroscopic scales. The problem is cohesion. In order for something to remain in the "limbo" of multiple possible states of existence, it can not have any contact with any other matter or energy. It must remain cut off from our reality. This is very possible to do when you are talking about single electrons or photons...but how do you do it with the cat in the box? In reality there would ALWAYS be some sort of information exchange between the contents of Shroedinger's box and the outside world, so the cat would EITHER be dead or alive, not both. That's what cohesion is: keeping a system coherent involves cutting it off from the rest of reality. The larger a system is, the harder it is to maintain cohesion.

Cohesion is a big problem in quantum computing, if any of you follow that  :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: trendal]
    #998878 -

Someone said something about some crap....

If subjective realities are interconnected... is this interconnection NOT objective reality?
Makes sense if it were...

Cohesion... yup, it's gonna be awhile before we get teleporters... damn. It'd be so much easier than driving and walking to just beam myself to a shroom field.

(a whole lotta "...")


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: Sclorch]
    #1000410 -

Sclorch,

"If subjective realities are interconnected... is this interconnection NOT objective reality?"

althouch much of what mckenna said was totally insane, I really like his thoughts on language. He said that our whole reality is made out of language.

Language seems to be the main thing which interconnects our subjectivities into a rough sketch of some type of objective. The objective world takes shape as we refine language and communication in general. I could look up in the sky and see a bright little dot, a speck of light way up in the air. So far, it is only subjectively there. I could come to you and say "hey check that out..... u see that thing up there?" and you may reply "uhh yeah retard its a star.. you know.. a bright little dot or speck of light way up in the air"
Right then you have expanded the objective reality by communicating to me that your senses are sensing the same thing and that object no longer exists just in my mind, but in this collective, objective reality built out of communication.
but of course this is all just one idea.... i like to not stick to one and just play with them all :smile:

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
Is objectivity made of language or am I wildly misunderstanding the discussion :smile: kuz I know I've run into THAT situation before ;-)


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: Strumpling]
    #1001036 -

Hmm... there are several tangents available...

I'd say that objective reality is what forces individual subjective realities to begin defining what they percieve. If we both see a star and percieve it in the exact same way... which is found out later via our communication, how can it be said that the star didn't exist until our communication?

Objective reality can never be completely figured out by systems of such limited perceptions (i.e. humans). But that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: Sclorch]
    #1002692 -

Objective reality exists but we can only ever know it subjectively?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: GazzBut]
    #1002737 -

Objective reality exists but we can only ever know it subjectively?

Correct. For example, if I were able to pop inside your head for a while and see things through your eyes, it may be that the sky would suddenly appear to be the color I have always known as "red". You and I both still call it "blue", just as Spanish speakers call it "azul".

That is because things like "color" can only be described by showing. "What color is blue?" you ask, and I point to the sky, saying, "THAT color is blue." But I have no idea what "blue" looks like to you... only to me. Nonetheless, "blue" objects exist objectively.

pinky


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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: Phred]
    #1003206 -

Actually pinksharkmark, that color thing won't work...

All you'd have to do is get a bunch of paint sample colors.
Get your reds, greens, blues, yellows, etc. Then get the in-between colors.

Then do this:
Color A---- Color X ----- Color B
Which one is color x more like?
After a while, you'll realize that we see the same colors (minus the color blind people).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: Sclorch]
    #1005402 -

We could still perceive colour frequencies differently. Then frequencies that are similar would still look similar although different subjectively.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #1006534 -

In other words,your brain does not just passively percieve reality,it creates it. If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it,it does not fall

Unless you're a creationist who thinks the world was made 10000 years ago in the same state it is now, you surely acknowledge that there was a time when things were happening but no one was around to experience them yet. Such as the evolution of the first bacteria that would become our ancestors, without which we -wouldn't- be here to talk about it. Even if you just think there had to be intelligient life somewhere in the universe for reality to exist- you can go back -billions- of years to the first generation of stars where none of our elements had formed and nothing could have been alive. Yet the laws of physics still held- they must have; they got us here.
So it's reaonable to think that if we all died off the universe would keep on going without us, undisturbed and uncaring as ever. [And, in my opinion, extremely arrogant to think otherwise.]



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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: invalidreality]
    #1007209 -

Hmmm, i think i ran across this sort of thing in reading some writings by Berkeley (sp?), and couldn't really refute his position that argues to this extent, i.e., reality being a subjective mental construct and all that..and i was pretty good at refuting things in philosophy:)

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: Xibalba]
    #1012676 -

So it's reaonable to think that if we all died off the universe would keep on going without us, undisturbed and uncaring as ever. [And, in my opinion, extremely arrogant to think otherwise.]

What if the universe as WE see it is a creation of conciousness? What if the universe only appears the way it is because most of us believe in the same thing: that it exists.

Just something to think about  :grin:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: hyper_dermic]
    #1012704 -

First of all, I have never met so many intelligent shroomers in all my life.

Secondly, I agree completely with the whole cat in the box. Not that I would try it, but that is the theory I believe in.

Thirdly, I think we need to revisit this post when we are "under the influence". I don't really know what his would prove, but i think we would all at least get a long.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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