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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: hyper_dermic]
    #995375 - 10/26/02 07:20 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

i think a lot of the people doing cutting edge physics like string theory were probably acid heads at one time or another. it seems like there is a ton of overlap between the "new physics" and the psychedelic experience. does anybody know of any good books that try to combine the two? i've read the tao of physics...it seems to combine the mystical experience and physics pretty well,but it's not quite what I'm looking for. did tim leary write anything about the subject?

about quantum mechanics-isn't it true that sub-atomic particles are just models and don't really "exist" in everyday terms? I've read a few books about quantum theory and this is the impression i got...i'm just a teenager though,what the hell do i know?


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

Edited by grandmasterfat (10/26/02 07:24 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #995633 - 10/26/02 09:23 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

yes it does you fuck

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Offlinehyper_dermic
stranger withcandy

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 736
Loc: the land of excess
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #996455 - 10/27/02 09:08 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

...i'm just a teenager though,what the hell do i know?




Hehhe im not a teenager anymore, yet i still say that all the time... (minus the teenager part)

to quote op ivy
-all i know is i dont know nothing

[hyp]

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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: hyper_dermic]
    #996719 - 10/27/02 11:49 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

so to apply this to the macrocosom what your saying is ALL realties are possible untill we observe/expirence it, then 1 single reality is observed, and it is crystallized in our reality...

There's a constant in quantum physics called "h-bar" which determines the probability (in a way) of certain quantum events from occuring. It is very VERY small for our universe, so acts of quantum weirdness can only realistically occur on the smallest of scales (individual particles). For example, there is a very real and demonstratable possibility that an electron, when fired at a barrier it should not be able to penetrate, will "tunnel" through the barrier and pop out on the other side. It's called quantum tunnelling and has been experimentally proven.

There is also a very real possibility that you will spontaneously tunnel through the earth and end up on the other side. A very real possibility...but a VERY small one. On average you would have to wait much longer than the life of the universe for such an event to occur. It would involve EVERY PARTICLE in your body spontaneously tunnelling through the earth at the exact same time. There's a hell of a lot of particles in your body, so when you add up the probabilities the total becomes very very small.

Sorry I went nuts on example there :smile:

But hopefully this helps. Quantum effects are not really seen in macroscopic scales. The problem is cohesion. In order for something to remain in the "limbo" of multiple possible states of existence, it can not have any contact with any other matter or energy. It must remain cut off from our reality. This is very possible to do when you are talking about single electrons or photons...but how do you do it with the cat in the box? In reality there would ALWAYS be some sort of information exchange between the contents of Shroedinger's box and the outside world, so the cat would EITHER be dead or alive, not both. That's what cohesion is: keeping a system coherent involves cutting it off from the rest of reality. The larger a system is, the harder it is to maintain cohesion.

Cohesion is a big problem in quantum computing, if any of you follow that  :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: trendal]
    #998878 - 10/28/02 12:08 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Someone said something about some crap....

If subjective realities are interconnected... is this interconnection NOT objective reality?
Makes sense if it were...

Cohesion... yup, it's gonna be awhile before we get teleporters... damn. It'd be so much easier than driving and walking to just beam myself to a shroom field.

(a whole lotta "...")


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: Sclorch]
    #1000410 - 10/28/02 03:31 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Sclorch,

"If subjective realities are interconnected... is this interconnection NOT objective reality?"

althouch much of what mckenna said was totally insane, I really like his thoughts on language. He said that our whole reality is made out of language.

Language seems to be the main thing which interconnects our subjectivities into a rough sketch of some type of objective. The objective world takes shape as we refine language and communication in general. I could look up in the sky and see a bright little dot, a speck of light way up in the air. So far, it is only subjectively there. I could come to you and say "hey check that out..... u see that thing up there?" and you may reply "uhh yeah retard its a star.. you know.. a bright little dot or speck of light way up in the air"
Right then you have expanded the objective reality by communicating to me that your senses are sensing the same thing and that object no longer exists just in my mind, but in this collective, objective reality built out of communication.
but of course this is all just one idea.... i like to not stick to one and just play with them all :smile:

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
Is objectivity made of language or am I wildly misunderstanding the discussion :smile: kuz I know I've run into THAT situation before ;-)


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: Strumpling]
    #1001036 - 10/28/02 07:41 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Hmm... there are several tangents available...

I'd say that objective reality is what forces individual subjective realities to begin defining what they percieve. If we both see a star and percieve it in the exact same way... which is found out later via our communication, how can it be said that the star didn't exist until our communication?

Objective reality can never be completely figured out by systems of such limited perceptions (i.e. humans). But that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: Sclorch]
    #1002692 - 10/29/02 08:22 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Objective reality exists but we can only ever know it subjectively?


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Always Smi2le

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: GazzBut]
    #1002737 - 10/29/02 08:53 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Objective reality exists but we can only ever know it subjectively?

Correct. For example, if I were able to pop inside your head for a while and see things through your eyes, it may be that the sky would suddenly appear to be the color I have always known as "red". You and I both still call it "blue", just as Spanish speakers call it "azul".

That is because things like "color" can only be described by showing. "What color is blue?" you ask, and I point to the sky, saying, "THAT color is blue." But I have no idea what "blue" looks like to you... only to me. Nonetheless, "blue" objects exist objectively.

pinky


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: Phred]
    #1003206 - 10/29/02 12:42 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Actually pinksharkmark, that color thing won't work...

All you'd have to do is get a bunch of paint sample colors.
Get your reds, greens, blues, yellows, etc. Then get the in-between colors.

Then do this:
Color A---- Color X ----- Color B
Which one is color x more like?
After a while, you'll realize that we see the same colors (minus the color blind people).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: Sclorch]
    #1005402 - 10/30/02 07:41 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

We could still perceive colour frequencies differently. Then frequencies that are similar would still look similar although different subjectively.


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Always Smi2le

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InvisibleXibalba
Stranger
Registered: 05/13/00
Posts: 2,114
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #1006534 - 10/30/02 01:19 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

In other words,your brain does not just passively percieve reality,it creates it. If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it,it does not fall

Unless you're a creationist who thinks the world was made 10000 years ago in the same state it is now, you surely acknowledge that there was a time when things were happening but no one was around to experience them yet. Such as the evolution of the first bacteria that would become our ancestors, without which we -wouldn't- be here to talk about it. Even if you just think there had to be intelligient life somewhere in the universe for reality to exist- you can go back -billions- of years to the first generation of stars where none of our elements had formed and nothing could have been alive. Yet the laws of physics still held- they must have; they got us here.
So it's reaonable to think that if we all died off the universe would keep on going without us, undisturbed and uncaring as ever. [And, in my opinion, extremely arrogant to think otherwise.]



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OfflineTheHobbit
Pot Head Pixie

Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 863
Loc: the Oily Way...
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: invalidreality]
    #1007209 - 10/30/02 05:02 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Hmmm, i think i ran across this sort of thing in reading some writings by Berkeley (sp?), and couldn't really refute his position that argues to this extent, i.e., reality being a subjective mental construct and all that..and i was pretty good at refuting things in philosophy:)

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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: Xibalba]
    #1012676 - 11/01/02 08:43 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

So it's reaonable to think that if we all died off the universe would keep on going without us, undisturbed and uncaring as ever. [And, in my opinion, extremely arrogant to think otherwise.]

What if the universe as WE see it is a creation of conciousness? What if the universe only appears the way it is because most of us believe in the same thing: that it exists.

Just something to think about  :grin:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineNewbie2000
Idiot:www.soby.us

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 479
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: hyper_dermic]
    #1012704 - 11/01/02 08:55 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

First of all, I have never met so many intelligent shroomers in all my life.

Secondly, I agree completely with the whole cat in the box. Not that I would try it, but that is the theory I believe in.

Thirdly, I think we need to revisit this post when we are "under the influence". I don't really know what his would prove, but i think we would all at least get a long.

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