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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Reality and Truth
    #2556458 - 04/13/04 08:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

re?al?i?ty
n. pl. re?al?i?ties

1. The quality or state of being actual or true.
2. One, such as a person, an entity, or an event, that is actual: ?the weight of history and political realities? (Benno C. Schmidt, Jr.).
3. The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence.
4. That which exists objectively and in fact: Your observations do not seem to be about reality.

truth
n. pl. truths (trthz, trths)

1. Conformity to fact or actuality.
2. A statement proven to be or accepted as true.
3. Sincerity; integrity.
4. Fidelity to an original or standard.
5.
A. Reality; actuality.
B. often Truth That which is considered to be the supreme reality and to have the ultimate meaning and value of existence.

It occured to me that many people have developed a warped view of reality and truth; yet they insist there reality and truth, which don't conform to the definitions, is in fact reality and truth. All definitions from dictionary.com


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2556474 - 04/13/04 09:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

People are coming from THEIR point of view. Their origin... what else do you expect from them... Is it YOUR reality? I think you are speaking of perceptions.

Many people choose to believe that their perceptions of reality and truth are the exact ones... which all in all... may be a necessary thing.

If they didnt think that what they thought was true... or what was reality... where would they be? Well... i think you must maintain at least some since of self awareness... something which ties "you" to the "reality".

Definitions are only as good as the people who know and write them. What makes a word a word? Because we understand the meaning behind the definition... we give it a recognizable set of characters... some meanings... You got yourself a defininition... But as you know... in the english language... a single word may have many many different connotations.

What say ye to that?


--------------------
What?


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2556589 - 04/13/04 09:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

So dictionary.com dictates your reality to you :smile:


--------------------
You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2556769 - 04/13/04 10:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"It occured to me that many people have developed a warped view of reality and truth; yet they insist there reality and truth, which don't conform to the definitions, is in fact reality and truth. All definitions from dictionary.com"

Let's back up.. first you have to admit that your own view is warped to other people, even though you insist your 'definitions' are correct.. I hate to say but I am begining to realize reality HAS no definitions, and to give it one is a mistake. That is not to say we can not define the basics of geometry, but rather to say we can not put definition to the average breath intakes per lifespan, the number of rain drops during the storm, the way the mind works. Anyways, I'm sure I went off subject.


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2557147 - 04/13/04 11:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

honestly i laughed out loud when i read this...
you say the words 'dictionary.com' like some people say 'god's word'
ill be the first to say that dictionary definitions arent worth a shit and you need to ask yourself how you came to believe that book by funk and wagnalls is somehow the essence of truth.

i guess people have a psychological need for there to be some big heavy book with reassuringly fine print to tell us whats true and whats what, but its still as delusional a belief now as it ever was, weather your bible was written by hebrew priests or funk and wagnalls.

id write my own dictionary but i think that takes a very distorted kind of mind. Take reality, slice it in to millions of tiny pieces and pin little labels with made up words on them...


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2557157 - 04/13/04 11:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

If we didn't have words that were assigned some value that we could all understand, then how could we communicate with each other?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: Frog]
    #2557356 - 04/14/04 12:58 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

exactly frog. we devised this system so we could communicate on some level. its a tool, we had to devise a common meaning for words so we could talk. But does that mean that meaning is any more 'true' than any other one? dictionaries are tools for checkin spelling and meaning but they done define life in any real sense


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: Frog]
    #2557380 - 04/14/04 01:05 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well this is all speculation, but it is my belief that long ago before written language , and even before humans evolved , animals in general used motion and psyical apearance to communicate with friend and foe. Imagine a pack of Sabertooth tigers silently gliding through the forest, chasing a Mastadon, moving in perfect harmony to bring a total surprise attack. Imagine the way a mother raise her child, not all communication is verbal...This is how animals began communicating, and now as humans some think verbal communication is the only form of exchange .


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2557418 - 04/14/04 01:33 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PHARMAKOS said:
exactly frog. we devised this system so we could communicate on some level. its a tool, we had to devise a common meaning for words so we could talk. But does that mean that meaning is any more 'true' than any other one? dictionaries are tools for checkin spelling and meaning but they done define life in any real sense




Dictionaries have never claimed to define life, but they do claim to define the words we use to explain our own definitions of life.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2557426 - 04/14/04 01:36 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

2Experimental said:
Well this is all speculation, but it is my belief that long ago before written language , and even before humans evolved , animals in general used motion and psyical apearance to communicate with friend and foe. Imagine a pack of Sabertooth tigers silently gliding through the forest, chasing a Mastadon, moving in perfect harmony to bring a total surprise attack. Imagine the way a mother raise her child, not all communication is verbal...This is how animals began communicating, and now as humans some think verbal communication is the only form of exchange .




I agree. But that was a long time ago. Since then, we have invented language so that we could share ideas with each other. We can't suddenly decide, sua sponte, of our own will, after a word has been created and defined, that it should suddenly mean something else, or that it doesn't mean what EVERYONE knows it to mean.

I'm not saying that the first post is entirely correct, I just object to the posit that the dictionary holds no value.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: Frog]
    #2557437 - 04/14/04 01:42 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I find a problem in giving anything concreet meaning, even complex words very specific to certain things, can no doubtedly have different meaning in different context. Why cant you give new meaning to a word already in your mind? That kind of thinking doesen't leaves room for the spontaneous of life, the changing 'database' of all that is. If we are locked down in details, and don't aloow room for change, even basic concepts like language and behavior patterns can not be changes, and we become a prisoner of whatever state of mind we are in.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2557447 - 04/14/04 01:48 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It's one thing to take a word that already has a known value and take it a step further in trying to explain what you are trying to say.

It's a completely different matter to say that none of the words that are in the dictionary should have any value that has been assigned to them.

I know you didn't say that, but someone did. I'm just saying let's don't throw out the dictionary yet. I use words contained therein every day, hoping that I am understood based thereon.

Explain your thoughts! Explain your life! But don't throw out the dictionary or we won't be able to communicate.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: Frog]
    #2557462 - 04/14/04 01:56 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, my example was kind of extreme, I know. I surely do not mean throw out the dictionary, because I for one could not go without spoken language. What I was refering to is the meaning that we as society give to certain words. Like when people hear confederate flag, or see one, 9/10 will think racism. When in reality there are many people who find good meanings behind the flag, nothing of evil nature. Also when people hear the word God, I think the number of things that come to mind are about the same as the earths population. When you get into words like that , where people put feeling behind it, there is no dictionary deffinition... I


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2557473 - 04/14/04 02:02 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think we have to continue to use each word with the value assigned to it, regardless that there are people whose racist thoughts or reactions will be invoked as a result.

It still comes down to a bottom line that we can only understand each other if we maintain the value of each word. The dictionary is not racist, or atheist, or whatever.

It's people whose emotions misconstrue the meaning of a word. They're ignorant. We can't defeat them by redefining the given word.

On a side note, I do think that at one time we probably thought in pictures, and we may end up doing so again. I wonder if it will make it easier to communicate?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: Frog]
    #2557632 - 04/14/04 02:56 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Isnt the real question here whether or not there actually is objective truth? Absolute truth, something that can be true eventhough no one believes its true, and is still absolutely true even in the face of a polar opposite belief, thus rendering that belief false in actuallity but perhaps not in the dellusional mind of the believer. You can hold the subjective belief that such absolute truth exists or doesnt, but that does not make it so in objective reality, if objective reality exists. But can the nature of objective reality be such that it does not allow for objective truth? If the absolute truth of reality is there is no ablsolute truth, isnt that a paradox? At this moment we cant know one way or the other. We cant even know if we really know we cant know, or can we? i dont know. Perhaps every paradox is not actually an inconsitancy, but instead it is the point at which our conceptual ability breaks down, yet just because we cannot concieve beyond that point and realize the truth doesnt mean there isnt a consistant truth beyond that point, or MAYBE that is exactly what it means? I dont know.

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


Edited by ZenGecko (04/14/04 07:21 AM)


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2558388 - 04/14/04 10:59 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ZenGecko said:
Isnt the real question here whether or not there actually is objective truth? Absolute truth, something that can be true eventhough no one believes its true, and is still absolutely true even in the face of a polar opposite belief, thus rendering that belief false in actuallity but perhaps not in the dellusional mind of the believer.




What does that mean, ZenGecko? If something is objectively true, like water is wet whether we want to believe it or not? So there are objective truths in the world that even a person with what you would probably call "subjective beliefs", or beliefs in the unprovable or unproven, would still believe, even though he/she holds these subjective beliefs.

Merely because there are objective truths that exist in this world doesn't mean that subjective beliefs are not valid. I once mentioned that when Einstein first postulated his theory on E=MCsq, it was just a theory. Something he thought up in his mind, that was later proven.

Do you really think that all objective truths have been proven at this time? I'll bet a hundred years from now, you'll change that opinion.

What harm is there in theorizing about the unknown world, the world that we can't see? How do subjective beliefs threaten objective truths?

I have never seen anyone here say that because they believe in God, all objective truths are null and void.

You can hold the subjective belief that such absolute truth exists or doesnt, but that does not make it so in objective reality, if objective reality exists. But can the nature of objective reality be such that it does not allow for objective truth? If the absolute truth of reality is there is no ablsolute truth, isnt that a paradox? At this moment we cant know one way or the other. We cant even know if we really know we cant know, or can we? i dont know. Perhaps every paradox is not actually an inconsitancy, but instead it is the point at which our conceptual ability breaks down, yet just because we cannot concieve beyond that point and realize the truth doesnt mean there isnt a consistant truth beyond that point, or MAYBE that is exactly what it means? I dont know.

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be




--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: Frog]
    #2558431 - 04/14/04 11:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"Well this is all speculation, but it is my belief that long ago before written language , and even before humans evolved , animals in general used motion and psyical apearance to communicate with friend and foe. Imagine a pack of Sabertooth tigers silently gliding through the forest, chasing a Mastadon, moving in perfect harmony to bring a total surprise attack. Imagine the way a mother raise her child, not all communication is verbal...This is how animals began communicating, and now as humans some think verbal communication is the only form of exchange . "

very interesting concept, and yes humans probably did once rely on non verbal communication. Totally unrelated though i think... maybe a new thread?

peace


Frog: um... please slow down a bit with your read and response... somewhere along the line me and you ended up on totally different wavelengths here... I never said the dictionary has no value, nor that it should be thrown out, nor is that what this thread is about.

Shroomhermits thread (the one your posting on) is about truth and reality. He begins the thread by saying he cant believe some people actually use different definitions of reality than the ones in dictionary.com, then added that those people were i dunno what was it 'warped and delusional'?

i think its funny, and also misquided to turn to any single website or book as the source of final truth on ANY subject. If understanding reality was as esasy as looking it up on dick.com than thatd be great.

Then id look up 'women' 'god' and 'money' and id be set for life.
But the sad truth is that the dictionary, the entire language in fact, is no more than a tool to be used when it is convienient and ignored when it gets in the way.

Ever read 'lewis carroll?" that guy threw out his didctionary a long time ago, and also wrote some fuckin awesome books. he uses words like chortle and gallumph, which convey his meaning much better than anything in the dictionary. And the true purpose of language is simply to convey meaning, not put any real form or label on life...

Life is entirely beyond words man

:sun: :tongue2: :spliff:


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2559157 - 04/14/04 02:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"And the true purpose of language is simply to convey meaning, not put any real form or label on life"

This is the point I was trying to make to Frog. Even if humans misconstrue meanings , it isn't their 'fault' or lack of understanding, it simply is the interpretation they give to a word which is JUST a valid as the dictionary definition from their standpoint....When a child hears Ho HO HO on christmas, they do not think about prostitutes, they think about santa claus, ... To say one word has one meaning is very farfetched, and ZenGecko went into alot of detail about whether this could be possible in an 'objective truth' existence.

"Totally unrelated though i think... "
Well, not totally unrelated, but kind of a long shot point maker. I am just trying to convey there is no truth in language(dictionary) except the truth we as individuals give it. As soon as someone interprets a word differently than you, the truth is gone, and it is now subjective whose definition of the word is correct.


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Anonymous

Re: Reality and Truth [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2559158 - 04/14/04 02:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

love = reality

as that is all there is. :wink:


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2559338 - 04/14/04 02:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well, if I messed up, I apologize. I thought someone was saying basically that one shouldn't go to the dictionary for the meaning of words.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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