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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
? "Illusion of Reality"
    #625933 - 05/03/02 07:59 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Note the "?".


Some assert that reality is just an illusion... that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself SUBjectively (Thanks Mr. Hicks). Well, I have a few problems with that, surprise surprise...

1. Would it be possible to prove that we are being decieved by this illusion? Explain.
OR
2. Would it be possible to prove that we are NOT being decieved by this illusion? Explain.

I think Descartes had a pretty good point with his whole Evil Genius (Demon). He reasoned that the very act of doubting one's own existence makes one aware of the truth that one exists (at least in the subjective sense of the word "exist"). Although some philosophers have argued (in my opinion, unsuccessfully) that the statement "I think, therefore I am" is meaningless, I think it actually holds much water.

Where am I going with this?
Well, since I think that the answer to question 1 is "No", I think that there are some parallels with Descartes' reasoning (though this is about the only thing I like about him).

As I questioned in the "We are all one" post... if I were God, I wouldn't want to, in principle, make it possible to "find the whole" while I was a "part". Basically, because it would degrade the uniqueness of the individual experiences. Besides, this is all just an "experiment" to god, right? When we die (the theory goes), we all just "join back up" with ourself anyways, right? So what's with all the fuss about being "one with all" right now anyways?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: Sclorch]
    #625945 - 05/03/02 08:16 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

To put it in analogy form, we are like acorns on a tree. Seperate from the tree yet very much a part of it. Within each of us 'acorns' exists the potential and knowledge for another tree, as complete as the original. In our shell, the ego, we are individual. We think of ourselves as seperate from the rest of the world with our own indivdual thoughts. Soon though, autumn comes, and we fall from the tree and land on the Earth. We are now at the peak of our individuality, and comfortable within our protective shell as it seperates us from the outside. As time passes, we are nourished by the Earth and drawn into it. Soon, we emerge from the shell, and sprout into our true identity. Nourished by the Earth and facing the neverending emenations of light, we become one with the Earth, and blossom into a magnificient creation, one with the Earth yet still an individual tree.

Maybe that analogy will provide an alternate perspective.




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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: ]
    #625957 - 05/03/02 08:29 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

What?

That was a weak analogy.

Give me a straight answer please.
You know how many fucks misinterpret the Bible... don't make me misinterpret you.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: Sclorch]
    #625963 - 05/03/02 08:40 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I have to disagree that being one with God degrades our individuality.
And even if it did, why would God 'want' individuality, is there something about individuality that is inherently 'good'? Aren't you making assumptions about God's personality based on the human virtue of individuality? It's not even a universal virtue. It is frowned on by some cultures (who are in my opinion, closer to God).
It could be that God really does want us to be One..


Can we prove that we are being deceived by this illusion (subjective reality)?
No.
But I would ask you:
Can you prove that you are not being deceived by "objective reality"?


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OfflineSofaJesus
journeyman
Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 69
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: infidelGOD]
    #625978 - 05/03/02 08:52 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I thought that was a fine analogy Shroomism.......


--------------------
"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]


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Anonymous

Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: infidelGOD]
    #625981 - 05/03/02 08:57 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

infidelGOD, regarding being deceived by "objective reality:"
The concept of objective reality precludes deception, it would be the perception of the objective reality (subjective reality) where deception comes into play.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: ]
    #625982 - 05/03/02 09:00 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Are you saying that a thing called "objective reality" exists completely independent from your perceptions?>


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: infidelGOD]
    #625989 - 05/03/02 09:10 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

ooo.. critical thinking. Me like.
Riiight.


Aren't you making assumptions about God's personality based on the human virtue of individuality?

Well, yes. But aren't you assuming the superstructure of God?

It's not even a universal virtue. It is frowned on by some cultures (who are in my opinion, closer to God).

I'm not using the concept of individuality as a virtue. If an EGO (god would be just that), created everything, then it follows that the ego was thinking on the level of the individual- creation implies first-person perspective. Or maybe god just "always was all"... Kind of hard to swallow with the Big Bang and all.

It could be that God really does want us to be One..

I don't work on "what ifs". I work on what I experience EVERYDAY. Just because all things are interconnected, it does not follow that they are all one being...

Can you prove that you are not being deceived by "objective reality"?

No, but I don't think I am being deceived by the existence of my subjective reality. From Webster's: existence (one of the definitions)- real being in space and time. We can ignore space, but time??? Time is objective. Time is responsible for our ability to communicate. If time weren't objective, there would be no order to these posts. Of course, if you want to believe the brains-in-a-vat argument (which is, ironically enough, a SKEPTIC's argument)...

So, I can say that objectively speaking, my subjective experience exists. That's enough for me to think that I am not being deceived.




--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: infidelGOD]
    #625999 - 05/03/02 09:19 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I'm saying that the concept of "objective reality" means a reality that is not dependent on perception for it's existence. If it didn't exist independent of perceptions, it wouldn't be "objective."


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: ]
    #626014 - 05/03/02 09:41 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

fair enough,

So if objective reality exists completely independent from your perceptions, how do you know it even exists?



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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: infidelGOD]
    #626026 - 05/03/02 09:49 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

So if objective reality exists completely independent from your perceptions, how do you know it even exists?


Faith in reality?
hehehehe



--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: infidelGOD]
    #626029 - 05/03/02 09:51 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

That's where the dreaded "S" "V" and "L" words (science, validation or verification, and logic) come into play. They are used when we attempt to determine objective reality.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: infidelGOD]
    #626032 - 05/03/02 09:56 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Must I once again revive the Swami "Rock-in-the-Back-of-the-Head" objective reality test? Let's cover the same ground endlessly.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: Sclorch]
    #626034 - 05/03/02 09:57 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Sclorch, critical thinking makes my tiny little believer brain ouchie!

If an EGO (god would be just that)
I 'believe' that GOD is the opposite of EGO
and I don't think God was thinking on the level of the individual during creation.
I don't see any evidence of ego in the cosmos, I only see evidence of design, which does not necessarily imply ego.
It's impossible not to anthropomorphicise God of the Bible. So I am talking about the God of the Cosmos (even though they are the same, they represent different paradigms in our understanding of God). So maybe you were referring to the prideful, jealous God of Abraham. I am referring to an entity that is so far removed from humanity that "ego" is meaningless.


We can ignore space, but time??? Time is objective
The space-time continuum is both objective and subjective.


And I also believe you are not being decieved.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: infidelGOD]
    #626040 - 05/03/02 10:05 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

No need Swami,

I too believe in an objective reality. But like you, I believe it on faith.

I guess you could use "science, validation or verification, and logic" to try to PROVE that an objective reality exists. But aren't you only proving that this consensus (subjective) reality we live in follows certain patterns?


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Anonymous

Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: infidelGOD]
    #626056 - 05/03/02 10:31 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

How do you know that a consensus really exists?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: ]
    #626058 - 05/03/02 10:34 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

faith


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: ]
    #626063 - 05/03/02 10:47 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

See, it's a lot easier being a beliver! :smile:

How do I know that anything exists?

Consensus reality is what most people refer to as "objective reality"
It is in fact, subjective and I subjectively experience it, so it exists, subjectively. 


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Anonymous

Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: Sclorch]
    #626070 - 05/03/02 11:00 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Sorry that my analogy was not up to your standards.. you know how us crazies are. Anyway, pertaining to the original question...

Some assert that reality is just an illusion... that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself SUBjectively (Thanks Mr. Hicks). Well, I have a few problems with that, surprise surprise...

1. Would it be possible to prove that we are being decieved by this illusion? Explain.
OR
2. Would it be possible to prove that we are NOT being decieved by this illusion? Explain.


The only way to prove such a thing is to experience it from an objective reality. Proof of deception of reality is a real catch-22. Since anything is possible, I would have to say both 1 and 2 can be and are true at the same time. If we are in fact one being all living subjectively, then it would be possible for the indivdual to prove whether they were being decieved by reality or not. Hence, there may be some who have proven it to themselves, and those who are being decieved.

The proof would have to be subjective

To prove it objectively, well... good luck.


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Offlinezepphead
journeyman

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 78
Loc: fort worth, tx
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: ? "Illusion of Reality" [Re: ]
    #626549 - 05/11/02 08:43 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

if there is an "objective reality" which kind of houses our individual "subjective realities" would it even be an "objective" reality?

if you were to perceive this "objective reality" through your own consciousness, which you can call your own "subjective reality," would the "objective reality's" integrity as "objective" hold true even after it has "subjectively" been perceived?

also, what if its not an "objective reality" at all? maybe it is God's (or whomever is responsible for all of this) own "subjective reality." which raises the question: can God have a "subjective" reality/conscious? if God is all knowing is it possible for him to have a subjective reality?

if God experienced "subjective reality" you would assume that he had to perceive "subjectively" while within some greater "objective reality." if this were the case it would leave room for infinite realities that tier down based on perception and the difference between "subjective" and "objective."

you could argue that God's reality is the reality we associate with "objective," however God does not perceive it subjectively.

just a thought...


--------------------
------------------------
anybody seen the bridge?


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