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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2891779 - 07/15/04 01:15 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

We are reality, all of our actions affect it. Sure, on a cosmic scale we are small, but we are a part of something really big. Logicaly, all events have a cause, and all causes have other causes. Thus all events are interelated and all actions matter. Even we as people are a composite of various life experiences and mannerisms we picked up from other people; we are the effect of infinite causes. And as such, we are the cause of infinite effects. Think of the butterfly effect.

The idea that we create reality in even the most physical sense does not quiet add up to me, but we certainly are not seperate from it. Our reality is a product of the greater reality, so in effect the subjective human reality is a manifestation of the absolute. I think that means that in some way our lives do matter.


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2892285 - 07/15/04 05:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I doubt its just my mind creating reality because I have experienced things and been to places that I don't believe my mind is creative enough to manufacture.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineZenGecko
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2892355 - 07/15/04 06:57 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Divided sky....
Its not so much that the mind projects reality into being, its more like all these realities already exist in a virtual sense, they all exist together in a state of quantum superposition. They are and are not both at the same time, then you observe/measure/interact, whatever term you wanna use..you disturb this state of quantum superpostion thus collapsing the wave function and bring one possibilities into being..but the catch is that mathmatically atleast all those unrealized virtual possibilities are equally real, whether they are observed or not..just not to us in the normal everyday way we think about what is "real"

The questions left to answer are.. what happens to the unrealized virtual possibilities? still there but like ghosts? realized in another universe..ect? once we observe something is it still real when we look away(from the standpoint of science and mathmatics)?(you have to realize that our perception of reality is innaccurate or incomplete at best, we only see a fraction of what is, and how it really is) is there some ultimate observer (god?) that made things "real" by observing/interacting before we got here, and does that entity keep them real when we arent looking? The thing is you have to remember all these virtual possibilities are just as real as the ones we call real, except we dont observe them.

Its as if everything that could happen is happening and its happening all at once, only we observe 1 line out of the almost infinate possible lines of causality/ or possibilities that are there. in a sense its like looking at a painting..you see the picture, but there is also the frame, the back of the canvas, the lil thingy that holds it on the wall, thats the "whole" but your just looking at the front of it..but the rest is still there, but to you it might as well not be, you cant see it or experience it, unless you observe differently, but you can only observe so much, so at any given moment you perception of the whole is utterly limited/incomplete/inaccurate...barring the possible experience of enlightenment, but while that moment may be pure..the its clouded by every moment after and before so thats probably why even "ultimate truth" is expressed by different people who may of experienced it in different ways.

The holographic theory might come into play here, since it states that just the surface of any 3 dimensional object contains enough information to recreate that entire object in 3 dimensions, for example you look at the cover of a book, there is enough info in what you can see to reconstruct the entire book, every page front and back, the binding and all. Like a hologram kinda.

You arent so much creating reality as a whole..you are the whole..an aspect of it anyways, you are simply actualizing one particular aspect of that whole/reality at any given moment, string those moments together and you have your precieved reality thru out your entire life, and because each of us only sees i sliver of the whole at any given time, and each persons perspective is different we SEEM to exist in our own little subjective reality...but in fact we are all experiencing different aspects of the one reality.. like im looking at the picture, your looking at the frame, some other guy is lookin at the back of the canvas..but its still just a picture hanging on a wall.

Really u if u wanna get down to it, this reality we are talking about is you..or you are just an aspect of it, so in a since whatever you experience, you are experiencing yourself, just a different aspect of that self at any given moment. Its hard to concieve but you are the creator of your own reality and you are that reality and that reality is all there is..only in our normal everyday experience we percieve only a very limited portion of the whole at any given moment, so it seems seperate, but it isnt.

Mushmonkey...

Some of all that above pertains to your statements also. I just dont understand how even when the smallest thing completely alters the whole thing you can call it inconsequential, reality is not independant of us...it is utterly dependant on us..it is us. You cant be apart of a system and still be seperate from the system. You change, then the system changes, if you were never there, then the system will be completely different, because even 1 small change means that it will be something utterly different then what it was. Yes elements will remain the same or similar but the whole is now a different whole then it was. Take the picture analogy i was using for instance...say u have a picture of a guy fishing from a boat in the middle of a lake...now erase the boat and the man...elements of the scene are the same, but the scene itself is completely different..no longer of a man fishing from a boat in a lake, now its just a picture of a lake. To me thats a huge difference, maybe it isnt to you. Its hard to say exactly what i want because the concepts are beyond language..language barely describes what im trying to here.

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be.


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OfflineMushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
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Registered: 09/26/03
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2895388 - 07/16/04 12:52 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"Some of all that above pertains to your statements also. I just dont understand how even when the smallest thing completely alters the whole thing you can call it inconsequential, reality is not independant of us...it is utterly dependant on us..it is us. You cant be apart of a system and still be seperate from the system. You change, then the system changes, if you were never there, then the system will be completely different, because even 1 small change means that it will be something utterly different then what it was. Yes elements will remain the same or similar but the whole is now a different whole then it was. Take the picture analogy i was using for instance...say u have a picture of a guy fishing from a boat in the middle of a lake...now erase the boat and the man...elements of the scene are the same, but the scene itself is completely different..no longer of a man fishing from a boat in a lake, now its just a picture of a lake. To me thats a huge difference, maybe it isnt to you. Its hard to say exactly what i want because the concepts are beyond language..language barely describes what im trying to here."

To steal your painting analogy..

The painting exists. I'm a tiny dot of red. If I'm around, the painting has a tiny dot of red, somewhere, and if not, that particular tiny dot of red isn't there.

The painting is still a painting, and will always be a painting, no matter what colors you put on it, no matter what their organization, no matter how plentiful they are.

The painting exists, and exists totally independently of any particular tiny dot of paint.

The tiny dot of paint doesn't create the painting, it merely experiences what was already there.

I think perhaps my usage of 'reality' might be a confusing point here. I don't mean my reality or your reality -- I don't like to use the term in that way. When I use reality, it's to denote an absollute, objective thing in which we all live. My reality, is simply my own life, as your reality is your life. They may interact, they may be totally different, and they may change, but we're all stuck inside a giant auditorium called reality.

Things can change, but they are still things. Reality is about the most non-specific thing you can mention -- a rose is a flower, and a dandilion is a flower. Switch their colors and they are still flowers. Switch their names, and they are still flowers. Cover them in shit, and they're still flowers.. albeit, stinky, discolored, possibly destroyed flowers, but flowers they remain. Reality remains, even if there would be no one around to observe it, and no matter what form or shape it might take.. it is only our experience of our particular parts of reality that changes. That, yes, is fluid and changing; reality itself isn't a temporal, fluid thing, as it would be if it were a dream.

And, if it is a dream (something that, just as the existence of god, is as impossible to disprove as it is to prove, and something that by the very fact that it can never be answered attracts believers), it still would not matter because it is not my dream, nor is it your dream; whoever's dream it might be has obviously set things solidly in place. And, let's even say things do change, and tomorrow the sky's purple with pink polka-dots.. as in any good dream, the change would not be perceptable to the bit players. that would be us. we would simply continue on as if whatever change might take place, has always been that way.. and therefor, whatever you believe, it still remains the same. it's as real as it gets, even if it is just a dream, because it is not our dream -- it is not something that we can control or alter in any crazy, mystical way. Only with our two hands or our mouths can we change things, and only in the slow, boring ways that we are accustomed to.

the only great awakening we have to look forward to is not a mystical, religious sort of thing in which we realize things are malleable by nothing but our thoughts and will, but rather an earthy brotherhood sort of thing in which we realize that things ARE shaped by what we say and do, and if we don't like the world we live in the only way to improve it is to make things better for everyone, is to do our best to not cause others undue discomfort.


a;lsdkfj i rant too much im goin to sleep


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
Female

Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 3,509
Loc: The Sea
Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2895609 - 07/16/04 01:54 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It's all about what you are able to perceive.

In saying this I mean :

I have been born with eyes. These eyes are broad eyes of an infinite spectrum of vision. To the point of where I have suprisingly wished for the ignorance, the narrowness back. The narrow road seemed much more clear, the weeds and brush have been removed from your thinking, and establish the initial 'programming'. This is me succumbing to my lack of clarity and realization for those moments.
These eyes notice the oil/abstract brush strokes of the picture my mind establishes/paints mentally, and the way it is perceived. These eyes see beyond what is happening in this picture, to analyze the picture in its Self, for the first place. My eyes see the same things your eyes see, but as soon as our minds start to process what we are visualing, our perseptive perception is altered instantly. This is why my mind DOES create my own reality.

I have been born with ears. These are the same mammel mechanics of your ears. These ears hear what they want to hear, as do everyones. I say this in meaning...everytime you here a sound (a click, tick, tat, boom, bing, doink) it is programmed to relate it to something. Assumption. Expectation. This is where our minds create our realities. (wait I know what you are thinking, reality is what has literally and scientifically been proven true? I dont think so, I think that is just for number comfort...what about the uncertainty?)

I have been born with a mouth. The words I say come straight from the mind. The transcendental truth of 'things'. Yet only truthful for I, for when you recieve the information through your ears, from my mouth, to your mind...around the assumptions, questions, and expectations obstacle quarry, it is a whole new truth and understand. A completely different concept. (This is also in relation with knowledge from reading, for errors occur through everyone, and one error by the writer, sends the reader a wrong impression, of who relays it back to their mentor of which the book report is due, and all the mentor says is "this was about cheese, not peanut butter."

I was born with a mind. As well were you. The receptor, the translator, the-all-powerful Self of which is you, and me, and you too buddy! This is where my reality happens, for my reality differs from anyone else's. The perceptive perception of the world around me is just as false or true as anything.

I was born to express - through mind, body, and soul.

The mind - perceives and creates my personal reality
The body - paints the picture my reality endures for the moment, through my fingertips I can release positive energies spinnin' around, how do I not dizzy and fall down? "Imagine your brain as a canister filled with ink, yeah, now think of your body as where the ink resides... you can paint whatever picture you like."
The soul - is my canvas. Without the basis, the centre, the Self, the soul, there is no complete onesness between the mind and body.

In conclusion, and in my reality, I don't look at the spectrum as being part of a reality, but observing, creating, and percieving my own. For I am a dot, but not a dot of reality, I am a dot of oneness and universal love and humanitarianism (that goes for other animals as well). Every animal experiences their own reality, and make the choice of how to react.
No matter how you worry about the things of today, the same thing is destined for tomorrow.
I try not to alter with the natual way of things. I let the wind guide me, and let the fire ignite me, and let the water replenish me, and let the earth keep me grounded.

Now remember, don't take anything I say too seriously, because you, for the most part, have no clue what I just said, yet you undoubtedly understood what you just read. (I think this is the effect of prolonged salvia-tract usage on the brain...:-)

**I know the relevance of this post isn't too clear, but that's how I like, sorry for the drifting, I just didnt ignore it.

***Alright, no proofing, Im just gonna post this bad boy. Very needed paint-spillage in my case. Thank you friends for trying to paint this disasterous spillage on your own mental canvas.


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 30,827
Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Strumpling]
    #2896023 - 07/16/04 05:41 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

the tv screen produces an image derived from cameras
&
processing

by the time we see it, it is totally processed, can't separate the original from the processed result.

same with mind.

by the time we experience the world it is impossible to separate out the original sensations from the numinous enhancements.

in such a way the world and we are one ongoing production.


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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2896083 - 07/16/04 06:51 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Mush.. if all your saying is that there will still be a reality of some kind even if we (in this form) are not here, dead or never existed then ya, there will be..but it wont be the same, and to me that is significant especially when 1 person can have an affect on reality like i illustrated in my other post...thats all im saying.

As for mystical experiences, i've had a couple of those and they were extremely profoud, though they along with other knowledge and experience lead me to believe that we are part of a greater whole, that fundamentally everything is the samething, and it is the one thing, and that is all there is. And in this experience of that, what we call our lives, we have no personal free will. If you do something with out a cause, then at best its randomn or spontaneous and you cant exercise your will on either of those, and if something caused you to do something or not do something, then you were caused, u didnt choose, but if you want to get into freewill go to the freewill is bs post i wrote awhile back.

I agree that things are shaped by what we say and do, i just believe and see zero evidence for us being able to do anything other then what we did at any given moment, given the circumstances surrounding that moment, then all those prior circumstance along with what ever we did make up the next set of circumstances that cause the next action and so on... every effect has a cause and every effect of a cause is in turn another cause in itself. The whole and its collective conscience if it has one may have free will, and in that since as being it, and it us, we would also have it, but we cant exercise it in this form/life. We are subject to the will of the system, as agents of the system, as the system itself and must do the will of the system. At best we can only be aware somewhat of what is happening and if we are lucky why its happening but we cant do anything else except what we must do.

Another approach to your arguement might be this...

If you agree that reality is one thing, and that it is the only thing, and we are it, or atleast an aspect of it, then that still means we are it, so if i wasnt here and i am the "one" then the one cant be here either thus reality/the whole/ system whatever u call it wouldnt be here. Even when i die im still here, all the energy and matter that made me up continues. Hell my conscience in some form or another might go on in some place or another, but that place no matter where it is will still be a part of the whole. it has always been here in one form or another and will always be here till the end of time, if time even exists and isnt just a perceptial illusion based on our incomplete experience of reality(ourselves) as whole, thus producing what seems to be a sequence of events, an unfolding of something but really it all just is, and always has been, always will be and no unfolding at all. A wave is an aspect of an ocean..but the wave is still the ocean, and in that sense we are reality, if we werent here it wouldnt exist. no wave no ocean(a wave is an inherent feature of an ocean), no ocean no wave, u need water for both, no water u get neither. We are not a single drop of water, so you cant say just remove a drop and u still have some water, water is a flawed analogy because it consists of different parts, the whole, is the samething, 1 thing, and completely so, it cant be seperated from itself or it wouldnt be itself. I dont if im getting my point accross, i can concieve this, but finding an accurate way to describe the conception is impossible. Language fails again.

Oh and lastly, just a lil extra thing i'll throw in here, being able to prove the existance of god is quite contingent on how u define god. If i define the universe/system as god, then we can prove that god exists about as well as we can prove anything. (though that might not be saying much)

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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OfflineSource
Remainder of anUnbalancedEquation
Male

Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 667
Loc: Outer Darkness
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: AbstractHarmonix]
    #2899128 - 07/17/04 05:04 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Ares,

That was prefectly clear to me. You know, you are getting very, very close to it? You must continue teaching because you teach from experience, unlike far too many.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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