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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Reality is subjective
    #2901526 - 07/18/04 03:09 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

comments?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2901609 - 07/18/04 04:37 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

not entirely :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2901645 - 07/18/04 04:59 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Are you too lazy to elaborate? Should the readers do ALL the work for you?

OK, I will attempt to make this as clear as possible.

VooDoo, curses, and hexes work if - and only if - the "victim" believes as well as the caster of the spell. It the potential victim believes it is all B.S., then he/she will remain unaffected.

A .44 magnum will severely damage or kill ANYONE shot regardless of belief.

See the difference?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2901899 - 07/18/04 10:28 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

The statement "Reality is subjective" is kind of tricky since it contains two very slippery words. The word "is" can mean both identity and membership. Reality certainly has subjective qualities, but there are plenty of undisputably non-subjective elements too, as illustrated by the .44 magnum mentioned by Swami. As Alfred Korzybski once said: "The map is not the territory".

The other slippery word is "reality". What does this word refer to? Every thought that may pop up in your mind is a real thought, but all thoughts don't necessarily constitute maps of the territory (the world outside of your head). In order to be a good map, the mapping should be predictable and consistent. And as far as I know, we have only one dependable way to construct such a map, and that is the scientific method: independent observations analyzed by logic.

This is not meant to say that "reality is subjective" is a false statement. All of reality might be purely subjective and objective at the same time, if you stretch the definition of Subject slightly.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: Rhizoid]
    #2901907 - 07/18/04 10:35 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

so what you might be referring to is the difference between the external world and the internal world? I would tend to think that there is an objective universe, but how we describe and feel about it, is subjective.

kinda hints towards the koan of "if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around, does it make a sound?"


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Anonymous

Re: Reality is subjective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2901909 - 07/18/04 10:37 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

comments?

no it isn't.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: Swami]
    #2901988 - 07/18/04 11:32 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

A bullet is the measure of reality only if your subjectivity is preoccupied with it (NRA member? NRA opposer?).

This response, in which Voodoo is measured against a Magnum pistol to prove a premise dealing with Reality and Subjectivity, * MAPS *a simplistic personal view of reality into the question:
in particular the personal view is one preoccupied with power and death as the main constraints over mind.

Funnily enough - a single death of the questioner will end the inquiry, and the issue of power is not the questioner's concern.

Turning back to the question without this type of pre-occupation might reveal what is going on. Take any mental contents, consider how closely any of it matches what is happenning. The differences are the degree of subjectivity. This is the core issue in Vipassana meditation, in which * MAPPING * is exactly the process of subjectification. That would be compared to bare attention, in which no additional * Mapping * is applied.


Edited by redgreenvines (07/18/04 11:33 AM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: Swami]
    #2902086 - 07/18/04 12:45 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

While there are many aspects of our reality that can be agreed on there are many aspects of our reality that are totally subjective and open to interpretation. There IS physical reality which is pretty much non-negotiable in its construction; then there is our interpretations and perception of that physical reality. This is what I am refering to. We all look through different glasses to a certain extent. What we ultimately believe to be true concerning this reality can become our reality. Often people bump against the boundaries of their reality and need to adopt a new paradigm as the old one was found to be insufficient. While all of us see the physical reality and have concensual agreements concerning it, our interpretations of it are varied. Some drift so far from the concensus reality that they undertake extreme acts such as suicide in the belief that they are fulfilling a function within their reality. Other people become financially successful based on their world view...and so on. This is what I mean. No one interpretation is correct. The interesting part comes in here. Curses and the like can certainly have an effect, as you stated, if the person believes. Therefor so can religious beliefs...if that is your reality. Come on now ...calling me lazy....I'm just putting the general statement out there before I participate in the conversation...fishing if you will. I am a fisherman you know.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2902093 - 07/18/04 12:47 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

We experience reality subjectively, but that doesn't mean that there is no objective reality.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2902115 - 07/18/04 12:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Come on now ...calling me lazy....I'm just putting the general statement out there before I participate in the conversation...fishing if you will.

Fishing (i.e. laying on a riverbank a la Tom Swayer with a pole stuck in the ground and letting the current move the bait around while waiting for a hapless aquatic victim to fall for your con) is the epitome of passive activity (laziness).  :stoned:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: Swami]
    #2902140 - 07/18/04 01:02 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

digressing again - is there something personal going on or is it subjective?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: Swami]
    #2902141 - 07/18/04 01:02 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Nothing wrong with that.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: silversoul7]
    #2902150 - 07/18/04 01:04 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

The objective reality can be changed by the subjective reality, though.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2902160 - 07/18/04 01:09 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
The objective reality can be changed by the subjective reality, though.



How so?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: silversoul7]
    #2902198 - 07/18/04 01:21 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Well, when Bush (and others plus some of the networks) chant over and over again; "Saddam, 9/11; Saddam, 9/11; Saddam, 9/11" then the USA goes to war over a false correlation, then objective reality is being changed due to an erroneous belief.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: kaiowas]
    #2902367 - 07/18/04 02:16 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
so what you might be referring to is the difference between the external world and the internal world? I would tend to think that there is an objective universe, but how we describe and feel about it, is subjective.

kinda hints towards the koan of "if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around, does it make a sound?"




--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: Swami]
    #2903331 - 07/18/04 08:24 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

That is a proper example of this. I can shoot my neighbor's dog because I dreamed it, that is another example. When one is inspired by the spirit to change the objective reality then the spirit world has changed the physical world.


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OfflineSource
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2905322 - 07/19/04 01:55 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

What do we know about 'objects' (out there) other than what we experience? What do we know about the 'subject' (in here) that experiences the object...nothing can be known. For those reasons it should be obvious (in my opinion) that both the 'objective world' and the 'subjective self' have absolutely no basis in reality. The only thing 'real' is experience itself. That is why we are encouraged to pay attention to experience in the present moment, rather than cling to objects or grasp the self.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: Swami]
    #2905629 - 07/19/04 04:27 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Is it really subjective to say: I will build a door into the wall I so often had bumped my head into ?
Rationalism, as a mean, plays a big role to transport false subjectivity into reality. That taints rationalism and realism as well.
So, in the end, I will hit my head again against the wall ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reality is subjective [Re: Source]
    #2905691 - 07/19/04 04:44 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Source said:
What do we know about 'objects' (out there) other than what we experience? What do we know about the 'subject' (in here) that experiences the object...nothing can be known. For those reasons it should be obvious (in my opinion) that both the 'objective world' and the 'subjective self' have absolutely no basis in reality. The only thing 'real' is experience itself. That is why we are encouraged to pay attention to experience in the present moment, rather than cling to objects or grasp the self.




I think this adresses the question
some of the other points made are mental
calesthenics that are unrelated to the question.

in refining this issue of experiencing:
the personality is intrinsically part of what is experienced by the being. This is the degree of subjectiveness involved.

bringing Bush (dubya) into it is politics.
bringing guns into it is fearmongering -> politics.
bringing the neighbours dog into it and shooting it in my dreams is a big relief for me but also not related to the issue.


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