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InvisibleJoshua
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Subjective v. Objective Reality
    #1259852 - 01/29/03 07:23 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I think I have tripped too much when measured against our subjective reality. This has caused me to view an objective reality. Now I am in a position to reconcile the two.

I have seen that there is no right or wrong except in our subjective reality. Has anyone else experienced what I am talking about?

Joshua


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"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


Edited by Joshua (01/29/03 07:39 PM)


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OfflineKilljoy
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Joshua]
    #1259864 - 01/29/03 07:30 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Is there even an objective reality though?

Mushroom and LSD have pointed me in the direction of no.
I feel that it is a completely subjective reality. But then waking up after being hit with a brick I'm sure would fuck up my day...


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Killjoy]
    #1259880 - 01/29/03 07:38 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

There is an objective reality. We have a hard time seeing it because of our subjective state of mind. The only case in which there is not an objective reality is in the case that reality is a figment of my imagination and therefor my imagination itself is a figment of nothingness. I have glimpsed an objective reality through my use of psychedelics. I am now at the point where I must reconcile the two.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Joshua]
    #1259887 - 01/29/03 07:42 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

We can never know if there is an objective reality because we only have our subjective experiences to guide us. I don't care how hard you tripped or how firmly you believe you have seen objective reality, there is no way any of us can know for sure.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineKilljoy
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Joshua]
    #1259888 - 01/29/03 07:43 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

The Psychedelic Experience always seems to teach me that reality is just a figment of our own imagination (in a sense).

Hard to say that everything is made out of the same stuff, connected, and a singularity without sounding like a stoned hippie...


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: silversoul7]
    #1259892 - 01/29/03 07:44 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

You are speaking through your subjective mind.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Killjoy]
    #1259894 - 01/29/03 07:45 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Ahhh...a singularity.

So if I told you that you are me and that everything I am not is me as well....you might understand?

Joshua


--------------------
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"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Joshua]
    #1259895 - 01/29/03 07:46 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You are speaking through your subjective mind.



As are you.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineKilljoy
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: silversoul7]
    #1259906 - 01/29/03 07:51 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

We're just a little outwards bubble on a multidimensional fractal.  This fractal is the universe/reality.  Psychedelics help you focuse and study that fractal in many directions.  Some leading to revelations about the size of the universe, relativity of self to everything else, self analysis to realize that we are made up of smaller fractals of the universe.

It's all the same stuff :smile:


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: silversoul7]
    #1259910 - 01/29/03 07:55 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Yes I am. I suppose if my subjective mind was observing an objective world the world I was viewing was in fact subjective.

I now liken my experience to being teathered by a rope of energy with periodic motion. This rope represents my subjective mind. I now picture this rope being cancelled out by the powers of the mushrooms. I am now given the illusion of objective experience because my rope no longer exists.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Joshua]
    #1259953 - 01/29/03 08:24 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I liken it to Plato's Allegory of the Cave. If I get this wrong, I'm sure Mr. Mushrooms will correct me:

A group of men are in chains in a cave. A candle is lit behind them and they are facing the cave wall. All they see is their shadows on the wall, and they take this to be reality. Then, one man breaks free of his chains. He sees the candle behind him that caused the shadows. He moves outside of the cave and is nearly blinded by the light. He sees colors for the first time. He sees a reality much more complex than he previously imagined.

I bet you, after your psychadelic experiences, feel like the guy who escaped from the cave. However, how do you know that this new world outside the cave isn't just part of another, more complex "cave"? Or it could all just be a dream, and none of it could be real. We'll never know.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: silversoul7]
    #1259957 - 01/29/03 08:30 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Very nice! I appreciate the allegory.

Perhaps objective observation is part of a larger reality. Or perhaps I short circuited my brain into seeing things that were not there. Non the less these experiences are a part of me now.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Joshua]
    #1260047 - 01/29/03 10:03 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry, man. You're not viewing the objective reality. Maybe if we found a way to completely wipe somebody's memory of all knowledge, they'd experience something closer to objectivity than we do, but not for long, because subjectivity is part of our brain. You can't get rid of it. Your brain has recorded things and has programmed itself to learn and think in certain ways, all subjective to JUST YOU.

The only way to perceive anything close to objective reality is through global cooperation, coordination, and communication, in my opinion, and even THAT is simply a collective subjectivity.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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Edited by Strumpling (01/29/03 10:04 PM)


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Strumpling]
    #1260078 - 01/29/03 10:37 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"Maybe if we found a way to completely wipe somebody's memory of all knowledge, they'd experience something closer to objectivity than we do, but not for long"

This sounds like some of my trips. When you forget you have a body or exist as a person, the experience is interesting.

Come to think of it, I can't remember the first 2-3 hours of my last trip. I just remember the feeling of objectivity upon returning to a vague realization of myself. Perhaps it was this coming back from nothing that gave me the impression of having experienced objectvity. I even felt like I had to re-learn how to operate my body.

I may have experienced an excelerated version of being born to where I am today. Perhaps my mind was wiped clean temporarily and I was allowed to return from this mind to my current mind. I would find this current mind of mine confusing and would have to relearn it. Wow...I think I may have just had an insight into my trip.

Maybe that's why I can't remember anything from that portion of my trip, because an objective observer doesn't exist. I don't think there is anyone to vouch for my existence during that time either.

Now I am thinking like a crazy man...or a man who has to reconcile his objective ideas w/ his subjective mind.

I read a book by Stanislav Graf, he was one of the original pioneers of LSD psychotherapy. He mentions some re-occuring themes he observes in his patients while under the influence of LSD. Prenatal experiences was one of them. Maybe that is what I had.

I posted a trip report of this trip in the trip report section of the Shroomery. Perhaps one of you would like to read it and see how I tried to explain my trip several days ago.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Strumpling]
    #1260085 - 01/29/03 10:41 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The only way to perceive anything close to objective reality is through global cooperation, coordination, and communication, in my opinion, and even THAT is simply a collective subjectivity.



I believe the proper term is intersubjectivity.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Joshua]
    #1260095 - 01/29/03 10:49 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Wow you hit home with this one :smile:

"Perhaps it was this coming back from nothing that gave me the impression of having experienced objectvity."
"I even felt like I had to re-learn how to operate my body."
"I may have experienced an excelerated version of being born to where I am today."

Wooo!! Sounds like coming back from ego-loss to me, man! :smile: I remember my first ego-loss experience - man you described some of it very well! It went from somehow "nothingness" to "everything." I experienced the entire universe and its workings, "zoomed in" to our galaxy and its workings, "zoomed in" to our planet and its workings, "zoomed in" through the evolution of life on Earth as my brain understands it, "zoomed in" through the history of mankind as my brain understands it, "zoomed in" to the modern United States of America, "zoomed in" to Los Angeles, zoomed in to my hoome and the fact that the two owners of that house had abandoned it for the weekend, zoomed in to my kitchen, my stove, and at long last, my kettle, which I had used to make mushroom tea that evening. Suddenly I was back! I remembered I was me. I remembered that I had a body and even senses with which to observe my surroundings - I actually had to tinker with my brain to get my finger to move, but once I moved a tiny bit, I was just about back to normal (as "normal" as I've ever been, anyway :wink:).

Something like that?

What was happening BEFORE the "nothing" on this trip you're describing? Was it a very very intense peak? Do you remember any of it?

Edit (addition): Hmm I just realized that since the "zooming in" through all of that stuff like History and the Universe was certainly subjective, but I'd forgotten who/what/when/why the subject even WAS until the kettle came to mind. It was mind-blowing


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (01/29/03 10:54 PM)


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OfflineMonkah
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Joshua]
    #1260182 - 01/29/03 11:58 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)



i am curious for you..

why the need to subjectively place
into memories,words, experiences, and thoughts
these objective experiences?

do you feel a need to share?
or to clarify?

they are verry much "real",
untill you place them in order,
question them, or analyze its manner.
then its only a faint memory
from what youve subjectively comprised.

the only way to have a true
objective experience "rememberd"
is to be in a place of no-mind,
and re-live it as if it never happend in the first place.


just my 2 pennies  :tongue:  heheh
 


--------------------
*NEW!* from Monkah Inc.The "Silence game" hold an exhilerating game between you and a friend,see who finds silence first! (warning:M. Inc. patented silence-in-its-self,failure to pay up will result in sending satan after you! err,we mean our laywer!)


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Monkah]
    #1260263 - 01/30/03 02:15 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

So would a video camera view the world as subjective or objective.
I woudl have to go with objective because it just observes, now if you meditated long enough abd did the same just observe withou placeing your own thoughts and influences on the world wouldnt that be objective.


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Fighting the man the best way I can.


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Joshua]
    #1260363 - 01/30/03 03:19 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

The universe contains an infinite number of realiies. Great philosopher Timothy Leary said "every reality is an opinion" Some people are trapped in their own models and can't see the way out. On psychedelics we gain more awareness allowing us to operate our nervous systems. This can also be done with years of meditation. And remember, this is only a model of reality. It is one that makes the most sense to me.


Edited by Earth_Droid (01/30/03 03:19 AM)


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Joshua]
    #1260712 - 01/30/03 06:40 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Children, plants, and animals view reality objectively. Somewhere along the spiral, humans pick up self-awareness, which creates a subjective lense to look at reality with, which has created all sorts of subjective "realities" such as history and language. And that is my subjective opinion.


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InvisibleChronicSchwinn
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Adamist]
    #1261606 - 01/30/03 11:31 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

joshua i understand what your saying man. i sensed that on my last trip.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Joshua]
    #1261965 - 01/30/03 01:50 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

The purpose of subjective reality is to experience a polarized (right and wrong) state of being.

When we can integrate these polarities, and experience as a whole unit, rather than as a fragmented, individualized consciousness.. we experience objective reality... that which is eternally connected and has no good or evil, only what is... all things coming from the same source and working together in harmony to create growth and learning.

By living in subjective reality, pulling ourselves to the cosmic insight level every once in a while can shed major light on our subjective experiences. Soon the veils grow thin, and dissolve, leaving us with a profound sense of inner wisdom as we come to realize the subjective reality was but an illusion, another lesson on our path through evolution.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Joshua]
    #1262134 - 01/30/03 03:00 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Objective reality is when you truly know what's is right and what is wrong.

MAIA


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Offlineenotake2
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Joshua]
    #1263663 - 01/31/03 12:04 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Apparently when you trip your attention broadens so that you can take in more information. Usually you are more selective and your filters that are guided by what is important to whatever you are trying to achieve, what is salient, what is consistent with what you already believe etc guide how you experience the environment. So in a way you could argue that you are more objective while tripping. Though I agree with Silversoul in that I don't think you can be truly objective.


--------------------
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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Subjective v. Objective Reality [Re: Shroomism]
    #1266766 - 01/31/03 09:31 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"When we can integrate these polarities, and experience as a whole unit, rather than as a fragmented, individualized consciousness.. we experience objective reality... that which is eternally connected and has no good or evil, only what is... all things coming from the same source and working together in harmony to create growth and learning."

This all made sense to me until, "...create growth and learning."

These are very subjective terms and do not fit well with, "...has no good or evil, only what is... "

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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