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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Reality Test
    #551338 - 02/14/02 01:49 PM (22 years, 18 days ago)

Many of you confuse the faultiness of the measuring tool as if the tool changes reality. If I put a piece of frosted glass in front of my eyes, did it actually change the trees and buildings in front of me? Of course not.

Now I am not a violent person, so bear in mind that this is a hypothetical test only. All the babbling about subjective vs objective reality accomplishes nothing. Let everyone who wishes to participate in the experiment line up and let me give them a solid crack in the back of the head with a nice hefty stone and then let's have the "nature of reality" discussion again.

Of course no one will line up because *ahem* there IS such a thing as objective reality.

Made my point. End of discussion.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #551354 - 02/14/02 02:05 PM (22 years, 18 days ago)

Yes, if you crack me in the back of the head my head will hurt. Brilliant.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Reality Test [Re: Ulysees]
    #551415 - 02/14/02 02:58 PM (22 years, 18 days ago)

And you know that ahead of time... how? You mean the stone isn't really whirling quantuum particles that respond to your thoughts?

Never said my hypothesis was brilliant, just basic.Sounds like you actually agree with me!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #551437 - 02/14/02 03:10 PM (22 years, 18 days ago)

Whether I'm stoned and quantum particles are flying out of my nose is irrelevant. I don't know if it's "objective reality" but it's gonna hurt like hell.



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Offlinejonnyshaggs420
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/08/00
Posts: 1,965
Loc: Mid-West
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #551460 - 02/14/02 03:26 PM (22 years, 18 days ago)

You come down to my house and I'll let you crack me in the back of the head. Hey we can test the life after death hypothesis too. We'll make a day of it.


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Vote Jonnyshaggs in the next election for GOD...Its the responsible choice

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OfflineMentalHygene
otherworldly

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 192
Loc: Somewhere...Under the rai...
Last seen: 20 years, 1 month
Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #551479 - 02/14/02 03:36 PM (22 years, 18 days ago)

YEAHHH!!!!  We should make a huge party out of the whole thing!  But wait, if we all got whacked on the back of the head, we wouldn't be able to use the computer anymore, and then we couldn't have the fun little pointless arguments anymore!!!!!  :frown:    Nah, I'm gonna have to pass my friend, this fills up too much of my free time, and I'm not sure I'm ready to give that up.  Especially on the behalf of a cracked noggin! :smile: 


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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"

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Offlinegribochek
enthusiast
Registered: 04/18/99
Posts: 286
Last seen: 19 years, 11 months
Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #552471 - 02/15/02 11:28 AM (22 years, 17 days ago)

Aaaah, the cerpent of Swamihood has lifted its venomous head again...

How is pain, or for that matter anticipation of pain any proof of any objective reality? Events in dreams can be anticipated, so what? You can anticipate that if you eat shrooms you will meet with some strange visions, is this proof that the visions are objective? Furthermore, objective vs subjective is real a question of whether or not something else exists outside of our own perceived world (a tree in the forest that fell when nobody sees it, for example). The fact that pain exists is fairly indisputable within the framework of subjective (i.e. percieved) universe, thus proves nothing of objectivity. Thank you....

Many of you confuse the faultiness of the measuring tool as if the tool changes reality

Excuse me many times, for I am stupid, but how can one claim that a tool changes reality, if one doesn't claim to believe in any reality in the first place?

Faultiness of tools is, in and of itself, a very interesting discussion topic. Please enlighten me as to the following questions:

1. How does one measure the accuracy of a tool, in absence of ways to observe the object by other tools (say during the time when the tool is the first to reach a certain level of accuracy).
2. If mulitple different tools perform the same measurement and produce the same result, that is supposed to be proof of accuracy, right? Well, if so, looking into multiple convex mirrors will prove that you are fat, won't it? Clearly nonsence which you might counter by saying something like "clearly, multiple convex mirrors as measuring devices have the same flaw", to which I ask "relative to what?".

-- Grib.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Reality Test [Re: gribochek]
    #552570 - 02/15/02 12:48 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

Aaaah, the cerpent of Swamihood has lifted its venomous head again...
Cool. Nobody has ever waxed poetic over me before.

How is pain, or for that matter anticipation of pain any proof of any objective reality?
It is objective because it is universal. Does not matter you religion, your though processes, your disposition. The pain and injury will exist no matter what mental stance you take. You understand this, but go on for some obscure reason.

You can anticipate that if you eat shrooms you will meet with some strange visions...
Again you agree with me. No matter what your mindset, if given enough mushrooms, one WILL indeed trip.

Excuse me many times, for I am stupid,
Now, now, false humility is not becoming on you.

...but how can one claim that a tool changes reality,
See? Again you agree with me though I had to trick you into it. The tool does not change reality. The laws of physics remain intact when tripping. There is no telekinesis or other violations possible just because one thinks so while in a mushroom trance.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #552661 - 02/15/02 01:47 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

That's all well and good, but pain doesn't encompase all of reality. Sure we know it's going to hurt, but physical pain is the extent of this test, correct?


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OfflineTimeleech
addict
Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 590
Loc: Norway
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #552679 - 02/15/02 02:02 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

How is pain, or for that matter anticipation of pain any proof of any objective reality?
It is objective because it is universal. Does not matter you religion, your though processes, your disposition. The pain and injury will exist no matter what mental stance you take. You understand this, but go on for some obscure reason.


Pain is a product of our CNS and brain, different pain thresholds exist, and one can[/] increase it (and we do, a baby doesn't tolerate as much pain as an adult). So pain isn't that universal, or at least not completely constant. It will be interesting when we get more advanced artificial limbs, will we make them be able to feel pain? If not, then it suddenly isn't that universal anymore.
Besides, you can transform the feeling of pain by concentrating on it. (within limits of course, which your experiment exceeds) I do this myself, and it can potentially reduce the uncomfortableness of the pain significantly.

You can anticipate that if you eat shrooms you will meet with some strange visions...
Again you agree with me. No matter what your mindset, if given enough mushrooms, one WILL indeed trip.


no matter your mindset, if given enough water, one WILL indeed piss.
Just because we are accustomed to being able to predict certain things, does that nececarily exclude the possibility that there are unpredictable phenomena outside our band of vibrational frequencies we can scan?
Mind you, i'm not talking about psychic stuff, or ascenscion to the nth dimension. But our eyes detect what we have defined as visible light. (450nm to 650nm or something around there I think?). Likewise our instruments can detect other frequency bands on the electromagnetic continuum. Like radiowaves, or x-rays. It is only likely that there are far, far higher vibrations than we can detect, and far lower too.
So much higher in fact, that the current state of science wouldn't be able to detect it as physical phenomena at all (yet, I have great faith in science). Surely you must agree with this? It's a quite logical extrapolation, I believe (athough I must confess I am aware of the dangers of extrapolating anything too far)

...but how can one claim that a tool changes reality,
See? Again you agree with me though I had to trick you into it. The tool does not change reality. The laws of physics remain intact when tripping. There is no telekinesis or other violations possible just because one thinks so while in a mushroom trance.


MY personal theory on this is that the same way you can measure light as particles or waves, it is indeed none of them, but whatever it is, it's true nature lies "deeper" than our current instruments are able to probe. Same can be said about tripping. You choose another chemical balance through which you brain measures reality.
Same underlying "deep reality", different measuring method. Both ways of measuring are not completely correct, but aproximations. A tool can change the area of reality that percieved, but the "real" deep reality remains the same (albeit still not directly percieved)

Enough with my rambling. It might not be a challenge for you to bust all my arguments to smithereens (real modesty, in fact), but do so anyway, I can only learn from it.


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--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Reality Test [Re: Timeleech]
    #552688 - 02/15/02 02:09 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

It's interesting you mentioned the artificial limbs, I was just reading more about that the other day. There are huge advancements being made, the merging of flesh and machine is getting better and better... The merging of mind and machine is drawing near. That really will change reality.

I had a link from ca.msn.com, but it's gone now. (They change them every day.) I was going to post it but I decided not too. Damn. :wink:

This sounds like another occasion for Ray Kurzweil. 


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OfflineTimeleech
addict
Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 590
Loc: Norway
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
Re: Reality Test [Re: Ulysees]
    #552715 - 02/15/02 02:31 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

I saw that article. And I drew a picture about it a week or so ago, check it out here:
http://theophagy.org/gallery/album02/Magic_biotech

I believe that the massive human transformation that will happen in the future not nececarily lies in any kind of "dimensional ascension", but rhather in the migration of consciousness into silicon-based machines, rather than the current state of the art biological machines.

Machines will take over the world alright, but we will live inside those machines!


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--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org

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Offlinegribochek
enthusiast
Registered: 04/18/99
Posts: 286
Last seen: 19 years, 11 months
Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #552725 - 02/15/02 02:48 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

It is objective because it is universal.
If this is your definition of objective, that's fine with me. If this somehow proves objectivity as defined as "something independent from or existing outside of personal perception" then please tell me how so. Pain is the most subjective thing there is, in the same lexical group with feeling of hunger, love or lust. Please enlighten me as to the objective nature of pain and suffering (other then the fact that it reoccurres under controlled experimental conditions, which is true of countless many other things)


You understand this, but go on for some obscure reason.

Well, your "measurement instrument" with which you measure what I understand is really inaccurate, please don't take its measurements for reality :smile:
The only thing I know is what I have seen, namely, that every time I've hit my head against something at a certain velocity, I have experienced pain. I have no proof that this will reoccur, although I have a fair amount of fear of trying, nor do I have any proof that this happens to anyone other then myself, because those people yelling and crying "of pain" might really all be good actors, for all I know, although I will probably not try inflicting any pain on them, for fear of them being honest those other times.

No matter what your mindset, if given enough mushrooms, one WILL indeed trip.

And, again, where is objective reality? (BTW, I smoked a fair dose of Salvia in Altai mountain region once, just to find out that I've already been tripping for the past few days... Nothing was added to my experience by the psychedelic)

...but how can one claim that a tool changes reality,
See? Again you agree with me though I had to trick you into it. The tool does not change reality.

Now, now, this is simply a dirty trick. My original statement read "how can one claim that a tool changes reality, if one does not believe any reality exists in the first place". Just to reiterate for the swamies of this world, to agree (i.e. with you) that a tool changes something (i.e. reality), I must admit that there exists something (i.e. reality) to be changed (which I don't, hence I don't agree with you) You tricked me into nothing, you simply missed the point.

Cool. Nobody has ever waxed poetic over me before.

How good must it be to be a swami:
smart people agree with you
those who don't must therefore be stupid
educated people support you
those who don't, must therefore be taught
even Einstein agrees with you and thinks you are a fine fellow scientist
no matter the guy is dead, he still does.
How good must it be to be a swami:
you never know the agony of seeing the world as it is.

-- Grib (sorry, couldn't resist) 

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Reality Test [Re: Timeleech]
    #552755 - 02/15/02 03:34 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

Yes! That's what I think too. I thought I was the only one around here.

That picture is fucking cool by the way. All of them are cool. Cool is no longer the word I will use to describe them. I'll let you know when I find a better one. :wink: 


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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
enthusiast
Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 200
Last seen: 21 years, 10 months
Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #552818 - 02/15/02 04:46 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

It is objective because it is universal. Does not matter you religion, your though processes, your disposition. The pain and injury will exist no matter what mental stance you take. You understand this, but go on for some obscure reason.

It seems the objective domain is indutitable to you by using Deuternomy-ish scenario. But there exceptions always that will never be explained using such priori. There are people that just defies the laws of physics. So let's get back to pain. I've been to A Shaolin show a while back. The monks were performing life-threatening feats most "normal" people could never do. One demonstration:

Two monks stood direct to each other with a double-headed spear. They both place the corresponding point to their neck [thorax]. Slowly, they would take steps, moving closer to each other while the spear progressivly was bending at a concave angle. This was unreal. The amount of elastic pressure in the flexed spear would pierce through and cave anybody's throat, which would kill them soon enough. Yet, nothing happen. Not even a drop of blood. The monks' neck were unscathed.

Edited by ArCh_TemPlaR (02/15/02 04:49 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: Reality Test [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #552834 - 02/15/02 05:05 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

The Shaolin monks spend a lot of their time meditating and channelling their Qi energies. They then test their qi by doing such abnormal feats such as you stated. I have seen monks sit naked in the middle of a snow field while concentrating on their inner sun and within ten seconds, melt all the snow around them within a twenty foot radius. I have also seen one monk stand fast while 7 others ram a large log into his stomach as hard as possible, and he doesn't so much as flinch.

The fact is that pain is a subjective experience. If I choose to not feel pain then I will not. Pain is an illusion. I have been hit on the head by a large metal pole which made blood flow quite freely and required 17 stitches, why then did I not feel any pain?

I would like to see science explain this without using any spiritual explanation. Of course any level headed scientist will say that such things are not possible, or that they cheated. The fact is, these things are quite mild compared to some of the things I have seen that could not be explained by science.

By all rights, a person who jumps out of an airplane without a parachute from 10,000 feet should die when they hit the ground. How is it then, that people have survived hitting the ground at 200 miles per hour, bouncing five feet off the ground, and suffering from only a broken rib?

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Anonymous

Re: Reality Test [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #552840 - 02/15/02 05:09 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)


Edited by Shroomism (02/15/02 05:14 PM)

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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
enthusiast
Registered: 07/15/01
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Re: Reality Test [Re: ]
    #552844 - 02/15/02 05:13 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

Yeah.. I figured there was two combined possibilites:

1. Using Qi as a shield right at the point of contact.
2. Psychologically immuned to such emotions, or thoughts of pain.

And what do you mean you saw "them"? I've heard of Tibetans practicing tummo in the snow, never seen one.

The fact of seeing it for myself + with a couple hundreds of other people is credence itself.




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Anonymous

Re: Reality Test [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #552849 - 02/15/02 05:16 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

I visited a Shaolin Temple last year in New York state. I hope to go to China this Summer to live in one for a few months.

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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Re: Reality Test [Re: ]
    #552850 - 02/15/02 05:16 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!! Amazing? That's understatement itself. I would love to be able to do that.. Have so much control over the body, mind, and heart..


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Reality Test [Re: ]
    #552853 - 02/15/02 05:17 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

Your description of your busted head made me think of the time I fell out of a very tall tree and snapped my arm over a log. I just got up, took off my watch and walked towards my mom on the other side of a field. (There was a baseball game going on.) It didn't really hurt either. I don't attribute this to anything spiritual, but to shock.
A friend of mine was working in a plant. A 2x4 flew out of the machine and hit him hard right in the forehead. He didn't feel much pain at the moment either. He spent some time in the hospital with a concussion. (I quit the same job a couple of days before the incident. The place was horrible, it's shut down now.)
A little boy on tv fell from his barn loft and got his head stuck on a nail protruding from the floor. He was stuck there for hours while they tried to get his head free without causing him braindamage. He looked pretty calm during most of the thing.

I think shock comes into play pretty heavily in these incidents where serious injuries actually do occur. The other stuff with the bending and the melting is pretty interesting though. I've seen some people do some pretty amazing things, mostly on tv. There doesn't seem to be many monks around here.


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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
enthusiast
Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 200
Last seen: 21 years, 10 months
Re: Reality Test [Re: ]
    #552854 - 02/15/02 05:18 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

Take LOTZ of pictures! :laugh:

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Anonymous

Re: Reality Test [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #552859 - 02/15/02 05:23 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

You can be sure of it Arch! :laugh: 

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OfflineDEnoG
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Registered: 01/06/02
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Last seen: 21 years, 9 months
Re: Reality Test [Re: ]
    #552868 - 02/15/02 05:27 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

Take me with you.

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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
enthusiast
Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 200
Last seen: 21 years, 10 months
Re: Reality Test [Re: ]
    #552869 - 02/15/02 05:28 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

Maybe you could persuade one of them to come back..  hehe  Show them a mag with beautiful girls.. :laugh: :laugh:


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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
enthusiast
Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 200
Last seen: 21 years, 10 months
Re: Reality Test [Re: Ulysees]
    #552874 - 02/15/02 05:33 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

it's like the person involuntarily dissociated from the moment of shock and the brain shuts down the pain receptors or pumps endorphins into the body to handle the stress. Like automatic defense mechanism..


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InvisibleLallafa
p_g monocle
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Re: Reality Test [Re: ]
    #552977 - 02/15/02 07:15 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

"I have seen monks sit naked in the middle of a snow field while concentrating on their inner sun and within ten seconds, melt all the snow around them within a twenty foot radius."

GUESS WHO DOESNT BELIEVE YOU AT ALL



faith= belief in the impossible
fuck pictures. put that shit on video if you want people to even start considering having faith in the possibility of a miraculous act that violates all known laws of nature
i encourage everyone to be highly skeptical of people who make claims that cannot be backed up with any sort of documentation other than personal testimonials


the pain i can believe.
i have seen some crazy peoples who can control their breathing until their blood pressure is low enough to where they wont bleed if cut.


but comethefuckon
if you actually think you saw this, i suggest questioning your sanity now


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson

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InvisibleLallafa
p_g monocle
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Re: Reality Test [Re: ]
    #552985 - 02/15/02 07:25 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

through meditation, shaolin monks can dry towels on their backs, and sit in snow fields naked where others would die
pretty cool stuff. shows you can learn to gain control over many aspects of your body
it can be explained by science

they cant melt snow 20 feet from their bodies by concentrating, stop bullshitting

maybe they used a flamethrower or sprayed some antifreeze around when you blinked?


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Reality Test [Re: Ulysees]
    #553023 - 02/15/02 08:25 PM (22 years, 17 days ago)

That's all well and good, but pain doesn't encompase all of reality.
Of course not.

Sure we know it's going to hurt, but physical pain is the extent of this test, correct?
The point is that despite all the philosophizing about reality having no basis outside the individual is pure bunk.

Perhaps a better test is the one I think La Falla recommended about jumping off a 40 story building. This prevents the discussion from veering off onto the perception of pain discussion. Not one single jumper from the WTC bombing survived, no matter how much they wanted to be with their families again, nor how much faith they had in their god. Each one sadly perished.

Notice that I will get 50 clever respondents about chi, mind control, etc., but much like every other Swami challenge, not a single volunteer will come forward to back up their claim that there is no objective reality; that the laws of physics are not immutable.

I have tried to believe in other's hyperbole, and yet once again I find NO substance.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Reality Test [Re: Ulysees]
    #553057 - 02/15/02 09:29 PM (22 years, 16 days ago)

"The other stuff with the bending and the melting is pretty interesting though."

im disappointed that you arent expressing your skepticism, or worse yet, accepting it as fact
one time i cooked a frozen burrito by finding my inner microwave

"There doesn't seem to be many monks around here"

you know i have the exact same problem
impossible things dont seem to happen that much where i come from




"I've seen some people do some pretty amazing things, mostly on tv."

"Do not put your trust in such trinkets of deceit!"
~Dracula, on the crucifix


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson

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Anonymous

Re: Reality Test [Re: Lallafa]
    #553148 - 02/15/02 10:56 PM (22 years, 16 days ago)

There's a little Shaolin monk in every one of us :laugh: 

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Reality Test [Re: ]
    #553161 - 02/15/02 11:22 PM (22 years, 16 days ago)

A recent overnight guest commented that my "Shaolin monk" wasn't so little...

Ever notice how the male reptilian (limbic) brain can quickly turn any high-minded thought to a baser one?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #553299 - 02/16/02 02:31 AM (22 years, 16 days ago)

what was his name?


(the guest, not the monk!)

Edited by Smack31 (02/16/02 02:32 AM)

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OfflineGrav
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Posts: 4,454
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Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #553386 - 02/16/02 07:18 AM (22 years, 16 days ago)

faultiness of measuring tool...

hey, im gonna go listen to Tool.

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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #553766 - 02/16/02 05:19 PM (22 years, 16 days ago)

immutable? Only to the beholder..


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