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Offlinemonoamine
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Registered: 09/07/02
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objective reality does not exist
    #991682 - 10/25/02 02:14 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

What I'm about to say is probably not anything new,and is just my opinion.I'm sure other people in the past have had this idea and elaborated on it better than I ever could. OBJECTIVE REALITY DOES NOT EXIST,EVERYTHING YOU HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED HAS BEEN TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE.People have different opinions on the same subjects because they are not experiencing exactly the same reality.In other words,your brain does not just passively percieve reality,it creates it. If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it,it does not fall. Quantum mechanics seems to support this in the idea that a sub atomic particle does not even exist before its observed.The very act of dectecting a particle can bring it into existence. Does anybody know the name of this theory in philosophy,metaphysics,etc...? If you think I'm a crazy moron,please let me know by responding. Can you think of any problems with this theory?


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Offlinehuboldium
member
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 141
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #991748 - 10/25/02 02:37 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

welcome to the real meaning of life, there is none, there is nohthing at all, nothing exists, everythign we experience is only our brain processing electrical signals, we dont see light, we get coded messages from electrical impulses from our eyes, there is nothing real outside our perception of reality, im very glad that you have come to this conclusion, you wouldnt beleive how many people just wont understand, try to explain it to them, they always come back to the i can see hear touch it so it is real, but it isnt, congratulations


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 2,473
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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: huboldium]
    #991757 - 10/25/02 02:42 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I the internet.


Edited by dee_N_ae (10/25/02 02:43 AM)


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: huboldium]
    #991779 - 10/25/02 02:55 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

yeah, i can definatley relate to what you said.i've had this discussion with some of my friends and they look at me like i'm insane or something, and then they change the subject. sometimes i think "what's the fuckin' point" and i want to shoot myself or something. the thing that keeps me going is "where do these perceptions of reality come from?" The problem with humans is that they try to express everything through language in a rational way.Maybe the ultimate "truth" (whatever the hell that is) is not rational and scientific. I wish I had some 'shrooms or acid to think about these things in an altered state of consiousnes.I'll probably just find more questions and fewer answers though.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #991813 - 10/25/02 03:18 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Must be time to once again drudge up the Swami "Rock to the Back of the Head Challenge". For a short while anyway, it seems to quell the "There is no objective reality" line.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineinvalidreality
this is notabout me
Registered: 10/25/02
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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #991816 - 10/25/02 03:21 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I just happened to stumble across this post from the front page of the Shroomery, and although like you said, it may be nothing new, but for me you just put into words the philosophy I have been sensing my entire life, that I could never quite articulate, and I would love to read more on this idea of objective/subjective reality. Are there good resources? I haven't began to search as I was so excited by this post that I haven't yet had the chance. I've always maintained that the world is perceived individually by all who interpret it, and that the world is different to each of our perceptions. The possibility that quantam mechanics even supports similar ideas is exciting. I appreciate you bringing the subject up, for it has opened my eyes to the possibility that there are people out that think or theorize about reality in much of the same sense as myself. Hope to hear more from you all soon.


Edited by invalidreality (10/25/02 03:22 AM)


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: Swami]
    #991817 - 10/25/02 03:22 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

can you tell me what you're talking about? i'm new to this forum. i would love you hear you thoughts swami.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Edited by grandmasterfat (10/25/02 03:23 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #991831 - 10/25/02 03:36 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

It is not very deep and is just as it sounds.

People sputter on about interpretation and how we create our own reality and of the infinite space between atoms and how everything is just energy in flux, etc.

I propose taking a nice fist-sized rock and cracking any volunteers to show me how different their interpretation of the event was. I am not violent and there is no malice. A machine could be used. All would feel pain and have tissue damage.

A better modern example is the sniper victims. They all died or were severely wounded by objective reality. The objective reality that the human body cannot stand up to a several grams of metal hurtling at 2000 mph no matter what your belief system is.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: Swami]
    #991869 - 10/25/02 04:21 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I see what you are saying and you have a very valid point, however,what about psychedelic experiences? Anybody that's ever taken a moderate to heavy dose of acid of mushrooms knows that you will often have visuals that are very different from the other people you trip with. You can say, "yeah,it's just the drug giving those people hullucinations,nothing more." That doesn't really say much though. These drugs really just act like chemicals that are allready in your brain. Your brain chemistry is in a constant state of flux and nobody has exactly the same brain structure. So there is no true,default brain pysiology. Everything you percieve is through your brain.
The thing about the rock. You only "know" what people are describing about the rock when it breaks through their words, you can never get inside their "head" and see what they are truly experiening. Huxley said, "...we are all island universes...."
And another example-the salem witch trials. You and I would probably laugh at the idea of witches with supernatural powers,however, many of the people there truly believed that they had a curse on themselves,so much so that many people actually had physical symptoms.

After I wrote all that I am more confused than ever before. Drugs are objective material things that can change subjective experience. I don't think your arguement was satisfactory enough,however. It didn't really say too much. I don't mean that as a flame or anything, I just think something like this can never really be proven. I'm not usually one for faith, this is something I truly believe in though. I would like to hear anything else you have to say about the subject.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #991871 - 10/25/02 04:28 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

What I was really trying to say is that I don't think reality has any existence outside of our minds. We tend to interpret realily the same because are minds are similar. Have you ever read "The Origin of Conciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind"?


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #991880 - 10/25/02 04:39 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I agree with you. We all experience a personalized, subjective reality. As for Swami's "rock to the back of the head" challenge, that only proves that our subjective realities are interconnected - it is not proof of objective reality.



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Offlinehyper_dermic
stranger withcandy

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 736
Loc: the land of excess
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #991962 - 10/25/02 07:22 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Schrodinger's cat
i belive that is the theory you are looking for

it goes a little something like this....

ya got a box with a cat within it, along with the cat there is a vial of poison gas (pick your fav poison gas.... whatever u want) now above this vial of poison gas there is a hammer attached to a sensor, the sensor is activated by an electron....

Sooooo if an electron strikes the sensor, the hammer is released, and the vial is crushed, releaseing the poison gas, killing the cat.......
thats the mechanics....

now we throw in the variable....
the last piece of the puzzle is the atom..... along with the aforementioned aparatus an atom is placed inside the box... this atom has a 50/50 chance of decaying and releaseing an ELECTRON within a certain time frame.....

the whole box is sealed up, and you just wait.....

so heres the fun part....
time expires.....
theres a 50/50 chance that the cat is alive
theres a 50/50 chance that the cat is dead
but untill you OPEN THE BOX and SEE for YOURSELF, the cat is neither alive nor dead.... or perhaps it is both alive AND dead!

one theory being that untill we subjectivly experience something all possibilities are true, once we percieve something, it crystalizes in our "reality" and we collapse the wave....

our entire reality is made up of waves or vibrations....
its intersting to note that occult theory has been saying this since the dawn of man, and "modern" science is also saying the same thing, yet noone seems to make the connection between the 2.....

[hyp]


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #993095 - 10/25/02 06:42 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

The Tao is so vast, that when you use it, something is always left.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: hyper_dermic]
    #993156 - 10/25/02 07:20 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

The effects of quantum uncertainty do not relate to macroscopic objects. Because the probability relates to a single particle the combined probability is very small. Technical terms: a system looses cohesion as it becomes larger.


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Anonymous

Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #993587 - 10/25/02 10:07 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Well this is exactly what inspired me to post the question about subatomic particles the other day. I was wondering if reality was created by being observed basically. You claim here that "subatomic particles do not exist before they are perceived." Anyone have anything to say about this?


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OfflineFreezingPenguin
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Registered: 10/23/02
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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #993603 - 10/25/02 10:12 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

true grand master....this is also why good and evil do not actually exist. I mean, a lot of people maythink they are doing good. Hitler for one, thought he was doing good, by isolateing the arian race. but we thought he was evil so we killed him, he prob thought we where evil

who's to say who's right? we are all jsut men, sqeezed outta of mothers cunt (well some of us where cut out)

good and evil is relative, there for the concept is faulty


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InvisibletrendalM
King of Asides
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Registered: 04/17/01
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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: ]
    #994537 - 10/26/02 12:20 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

You claim here that "subatomic particles do not exist before they are perceived." Anyone have anything to say about this?

It's not entirely like this. The particle exists before we observe it (otherwise, why would we try to observe it?) but it doesn't exist in a specific location until we observe it. We can only say that it is PROBABLY in a certain location or state, and quantum mechanics tells us that because of this probability a particle will exist in every location and every state possible until we observe it. Somehow the particle "chooses" one possibility out of the many when we observe it.

Quantum weirdness


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: trendal]
    #994600 - 10/26/02 01:17 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

The concept of existance is a construct of the human mind. Sort of like gender. There aren't male and female electrons. From what I've seen, the subatomic level plays by weird rules. Sort of like the human mind, or Linux. Subatomic particles are not matter as we understand it. They're more of mathematical abstractions.


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InvisiblePeaceful_Nomad
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Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: monoamine]
    #994618 - 10/26/02 01:24 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

I am more confused than ever before.




Grandmasterfat ~

Physics explains the objective reality we all share.

Metaphysics attempts to explain individual perceptions of
humankind's shared physical reality.

The grey area is in between the two. Mankind has been attempting
to explain the "meaning of life" (the purpose of physical existence)
for millenia. We have developed laws of physics in order to have
a foundation for our collective reality.

History has shown us that belief systems (commonly held ideas
deemed as fact) are in a constant state of flux, and despite mankind's
best efforts to control the life experience, there will always be the
scientist, explorer, inventor, theologian who will challenge common
belief systems and create new realities.

Bottom line is YOUR life experience is uniquely yours. When your physical
body ceases to exist, communicating your life experience will then become
a tad bit more difficult. Essentially, when you die, you take your world, your
universe with you. Your perception of life will no longer be articulated among
the living (those still experiencing physical reality).

I believe the strong drive for creation (offspring, art, music, sports, etc.) is
the individual's attempt at preserving their subjective take on physical reality.
We all know the body we inhabit is a temporary condition. The fear of the
unknown (death) drives us to preserve our individual (light and dark) experiences
of life. (Then again, some people just don't give a crap and don't want to
share their experience with their fellow human being.)

Hope this ramble made some sense. All the answers... all the secrets... all the
wonders of the universe exist within each and every one of us. Explore and
enjoy. Strive to bring inspiration and idea into physical reality for all to enjoy.

Peace to Everyone,

Peaceful Nomad


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Offlinehyper_dermic
stranger withcandy

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 736
Loc: the land of excess
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: objective reality does not exist [Re: trendal]
    #994662 - 10/26/02 02:03 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

True trendal,
you know your quantem theory well...
so to apply this to the macrocosom what your saying is ALL realties are possible untill we observe/expirence it, then 1 single reality is observed, and it is crystallized in our reality...

as to what you said before about quantem theorys not applying with macorscopic particals (e.g. our reality)

i belive that realtivity is wrong... our picture of the macrocosom is wrong... thats why theres the conflict with quantem physics... one theory has to be false (or both)
i belive that quantem physics apply in our lives all the time.... its the lowest commen denomiator (that we know of)

[hyp]


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