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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3082289 - 09/02/04 12:50 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

lol! It had to happen sooner or later  :grin:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: GazzBut]
    #3082306 - 09/02/04 12:54 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

If you throw enough shit on the wall......


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3082336 - 09/02/04 12:58 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

something like that!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: deafpanda]
    #3082352 - 09/02/04 01:02 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

deafpanda writes:

No, no, no. I have never said that morality is irrelevant, merely that is is subjective.

Perhaps it's time that you defined your terms. What -- to you -- is "subjective"?

I have never said that rights don't exist, merely that they are social constructs and not objective facts.

Rights are not mere social constructs, except in the sense that in the absence of "society", the very concept of "rights" is a null concept. A human on his own (on some remote landmass somehwere, for example) has no need of rights. He may do whatever his abilities allow him to do. However, when in the company of other humans, there is a difference between "abilities" and "rights". Silversoul recently posted a pretty good overview of this in a different thread.

And rights are objective facts. You seem to glibly pass over the objective fact that if your rights are violated consistently, you will cease to exist -- which of course brings us back to the point in my very first post -- in order for anyone to prove that there is such a thing as objective rights (morality) for humans, a premise must be accepted. And to repeat myself yet again, the necessity of accepting a premise is true not just of objective rights, but of any other philosophical principle, including the objective existence or non-existence of reality itself. It hasn't escaped my attention that you completely ignored that truism the last time I brought it up.

Can you answer my two questions above please?

After you answer the question "Is it right for you to attempt to continue your existence as a living entity".

First you say that you don't accept the premise, now you say you do. Only John F Kerry can have things both ways.

pinky


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective moral [Re: Phred]
    #3082373 - 09/02/04 01:08 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

yes i can see now that my arguments would ultimately be attacking the premise... although, i certainly would enjoy attacking parts of the premise, though this is not the thread for that.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: Phred]
    #3082376 - 09/02/04 01:08 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

For the fourth time:

From good ole' dictionary.com: Of or having to do with a material object, Having actual existence or reality, Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices, Based on observable phenomena; presented factually.

Now unless we are talking about a very different definition I dont see how you can support your claim for objective morality.

Come on Pinky. Please explain why the dictionary has the wrong definition of objective or change the terms you are using!

Why cant you respond to this point??


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: Phred]
    #3082385 - 09/02/04 01:11 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

After you answer the question "Is it right for you to attempt to continue your existence as a living entity".




In my subjective view, yes. There is no objective proof of this, however.

Quote:

First you say that you don't accept the premise, now you say you do. You're not John F Kerry -- you can't have things both ways




I accept that it is a reasonable idea, but I don't accept your proof of it, now do I accept that it is objective.

Quote:

in order for anyone to prove that there is such a thing as objective rights (morality) for humans, a premise must be accepted




Yes, and your premise went from an "is" to an "ought". There is no simpler way of saying it. Naturalistic fallacy. Therefore you can't prove it.

Quote:

Rights are not mere social constructs, except in the sense that in the absence of "society", the very concept of "rights" is a null concept. A human on his own (on some remote landmass somehwere, for example) has no need of rights




Thus, they are not objective. THEY DONT EXIST WITHOUT SUBJECTS (ie humans).

Something that is objective is something that stands alone in its existence. It depends on no subject. It is real, tangible.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: GazzBut]
    #3082408 - 09/02/04 01:18 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Anyway Pinky, at the very least you must be able to admit there is no absolute objective morality as any morality is extremely relative.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: GazzBut]
    #3082417 - 09/02/04 01:20 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

GazzBut, which of the following things are objectively provable according to that list of definitions?

hunger
pain
love

Prove to me that any of these things

a) has to do with a material object
b) has actual existence or reality
c) is uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices
d) is based on observable phenomena

I based my entire argument on observable phenomena -- the existence of living entities (observable), the fact that unless living entities act in certain ways they will cease to exist as living entities (observable), the fact that if they are forcibly prevented from acting as they must in order to continue their existence they will cease to exist (observable).

The reason I didn't respond earlier is that you appear incapable of correctly applying a definition.

pinky


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: Phred]
    #3082425 - 09/02/04 01:22 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

And from these observable facts - WHOOPS! You try and find an "ought", and fall into the naturalistic fallacy trap.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: deafpanda]
    #3082441 - 09/02/04 01:30 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Good lord, you are obstinate.

What part of the "tagline" concept are you having difficulty grasping?

If -- and only if -- it is right for you to attempt to continue your existence as a living entity, then it is objectively true that rights (and by extension morality) objectively exists.

Yes, and your premise went from an "is" to an "ought".

Not at all. The premise, if accepted, leads to certain undeniable conclusions. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "ought" and everything to do with "is".

Once again, I notice your evasion of the fact that nothing can be proven without the prior acceptance of some premise. Why do you choose to continue to ignore this indisputable fact?

Something that is objective is something that stands alone in its existence. It depends on no subject. It is real, tangible.

So you deny the objective existence of hunger, pain, love, mathematics?

Your counter argument is not even about morality, but about concepts. To claim that a concept [qua] concept is subjective is absurd on the face of it. You cannot exist without thinking conceptually.

pinky


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: Phred]
    #3082459 - 09/02/04 01:37 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If -- and only if -- it is right for you to attempt to continue your existence as a living entity, then it is objectively true that rights (and by extension morality) objectively exists.




Tautology. And not what I have a problem with, as I've said many times. My problem is getting to this premise.

Quote:

Not at all. The premise, if accepted, leads to certain undeniable conclusions. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "ought" and everything to do with "is".




The premise is not accepted. You say you get to this premise from certain facts about human behaviour etc. You can't do that. The premise comprises of an "ought" - rights are "oughts" - they are statements that you *OUGHT NOT* to do certain things.

RIGHTS ARE UNDENIABLY OUGHTS.

Quote:

Once again, I notice your evasion of the fact that nothing can be proven without the prior acceptance of some premise. Why do you choose to continue to ignore this indisputable fact?




What?! I don't accept your premise. It is unfounded, due to the is-ought gap, which I have highlighted to you on innumerable occasions. I am fully aware that arguments depend on premises. Yours are flawed.

And technically, it's not a premise, as you say it comes from various facts about human survival, human behaviour etc.

Quote:

So you deny the objective existence of hunger, pain, love, mathematics?




If hunger, pain and love can be measured by medical science (which I think they can) then they are objective. Mathematics is clearly objective as it can be verified both empircally and rationally.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: Phred]
    #3082477 - 09/02/04 01:46 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Hunger, pain and love are all subjective pinky!


Quote:

I based my entire argument on observable phenomena -- the existence of living entities (observable), the fact that unless living entities act in certain ways they will cease to exist as living entities (observable), the fact that if they are forcibly prevented from acting as they must in order to continue their existence they will cease to exist (observable).




Yes and as I said earlier thats fine...what was the next step in your proof?? Ahh..thats right the point where objectivity fails unless we agree to the premise "that a human, once born, has the right to attempt to continue living."

This is a hope, a desire. No more, no less. Who bestows this right anyway? Rights are normally granted by some agency arent they? Who does the granting here?

Quote:

The reason I didn't respond earlier is that you appear incapable of correctly applying a definition.





pot kettle?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: Phred]
    #3082485 - 09/02/04 01:48 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

So you deny the objective existence of hunger, pain, love, mathematics?





There are many occurances of hunger, love and pain but each case is experienced subjectively and that subjective experience obviously differs from person to person. Where is the objective prescence of love?


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: GazzBut]
    #3082491 - 09/02/04 01:49 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Dopamine receptors. And there are various chemicals and signals that are given off during hunger. I'd argue they are objective, although they are definately experienced subjectively.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: deafpanda]
    #3082507 - 09/02/04 01:55 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I was thinking along the same lines actually i.e serotonin releases would be the only objective trace of love...


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: GazzBut]
    #3082528 - 09/02/04 02:01 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

hunger, pain and love are NOT subjective at all. We are feeling machines and these are measurable feelings. They also have nothing to do with morality


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3082539 - 09/02/04 02:03 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Ive seen a ruler, they objectively measure length. And ive seen scales, they objectively measure weight but I aint never seen a loveometer or a hungerometer that objectively measure love and hunger.

Can you provide a link please?  :grin:


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Anonymous

Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective moral [Re: Phred]
    #3082557 - 09/02/04 02:10 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

That premise is that a human, once born, has the right to attempt to continue living.

that seems like an assumption to me. if one believes that a human being has a right to attempt to survive, then libertarianism logically follows from that. every other step is solid, but that foundation is an assumption.

if one rejects this assumption then the entire fields of ethics, justice, politics, etc. are moot. if one rejects this assumption, morality it not "subjective", rather, it simply does not exist. what other foundation can there be?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: GazzBut]
    #3082565 - 09/02/04 02:13 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

A link? No, but it is well known that these cause measurable brain activity in specific areas. We are machines and these things are machine activities. They have even found a biological basis for the so-called "seven-year-itch." Although I think my larger point is that these have nothing to do with morality. As for hunger specificly, I think the reference might be to the life threatening deprival of food aspect of hunger as opposed to the "I want a cheseburger" aspect of hunger, and that is easily measurable. You can probably measure the other kind through brain activity too. Pain is easy. How much morphine does it take to stop me from screaming from my kidney stone? Pretty good pain-o-meter, if you ask me. Further, just because we can't weigh something yet doesn't mean it doesn't have weight.


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