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OfflineGazzBut
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Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective moral [Re: ]
    #3082574 - 09/02/04 02:15 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I would say its more of an ought i.e "I believe that every human ought to be able to attempt to continue living."


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective moral [Re: GazzBut]
    #3082584 - 09/02/04 02:19 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

What about suicide? "Ought" they be allowed to partake of the sweet sleep if they so wish? Is that immoral?


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective moral [Re: GazzBut]
    #3082665 - 09/02/04 02:41 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Ive seen a ruler, they objectively measure length. And ive seen scales, they objectively measure weight but I aint never seen a loveometer or a hungerometer that objectively measure love and hunger.

Can you provide a link please?  :grin:




actually, they do not measure objectively. In case you didn't notice, measure is relative. They measure according to some arbitrary standard of units.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective moral [Re: vampirism]
    #3082678 - 09/02/04 02:44 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

quite right too, thanks for pointing that out. and as einstein has proven length and time are in fact relative, and not in anyway objective.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective moral [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3082686 - 09/02/04 02:45 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What about suicide? "Ought" they be allowed to partake of the sweet sleep if they so wish? Is that immoral?




As far as Im concerned they can do what they like. I dont get your point?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective moral [Re: Phred]
    #3082691 - 09/02/04 02:45 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

From a philosophical standpoint, I don't accept the premise that every human has the right to continue living. Life and death have no real bearing on the universe, it is simply something that happens.

However, as a human, I have feelings of self preservation and empathy, and most other humans do as well. So, governed by my emotions, I feel that it is best to protect the life and well being of others. I understand that I'm doing this for entirely selfish reasons; it causes me to experience negative emotions when I learn that others are being harmed in some way, and I don't want to be harmed myself. However, this has no bearing on the universe as a whole.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective moral [Re: Phred]
    #3083024 - 09/02/04 03:45 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Randalflagg was touching on this earlier and he was right on the money:

Pinky you say that " if the actions chosen by a human to continue his/her life are thwarted, that human can no longer survive and will cease to exist as a living entity". and that this is an objective fact.

But on the contrary, this is simply not true in its current form. It is missing a key qualifier in that it should say either "if ALL actions chosen are thwarted..." or "if ALL ACTIONS CONCERNING AIR, WATER, AND/OR FOOD chosen are thwarted...". With these new qualifiers one can say it is thefore not necessarily immoral to initiate force upon other decisions of the person (or one could even initiate force on those actions but not so much that the person would be unable to survive--stealing some bread from the rich for instance, or taking a percentage of someone's income that would leave them with enough to survive with).


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective moral [Re: Tao]
    #3088394 - 09/03/04 07:06 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

response pinky?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective moral [Re: Tao]
    #3088777 - 09/03/04 08:38 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

pinky may have another hurricane . I don't believe he runs away


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: ]
    #3090189 - 09/04/04 03:41 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

no you cant prove absolute morals, because they dont exist, everything in the temporal world is relative. Anything other than moral relativism rapidly becomes moral fanatacism. And this is a topic for S & P


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OfflineTao
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3090609 - 09/04/04 10:41 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

politics and philosophy are very much intertwined--such as 'political philosophy'. :smirk:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: Tao]
    #3091096 - 09/04/04 01:54 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

there intertwined in as far as your morals effect your politics. Nevertheless this is a purely Moral question, although it will have a huge effect on politics. But its still an S & P question for sure


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3091123 - 09/04/04 02:01 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

It is equally valid in both forums. Especially as libertarian philosophy is based on the erroneous concept of objective morality.

and it has been fun disproving the concept in this thread. :grin:


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Anonymous

Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective moral [Re: GazzBut]
    #3091382 - 09/04/04 03:09 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

i have trouble believing that anyone could honestly reject the foundation of libertarianism (especially in favor of a political philosophy that isn't even internally consistent), but i suppose it can be done. for those who do... what other foundation can there be? if a human being does not have a right to attempt to survive, what rights can he really have? what is the foundation of your political beliefs (whatever they are)? can it be proven as an objective fact?


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective moral [Re: ]
    #3091397 - 09/04/04 03:13 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Of course no political beliefs can be proved at an objective level. That is why they are beliefs. When I argued against the idea that rights are objective, I wasn't saying that your principles are invalid, just that they can never be shown to be objective, and should never be treated as such.

Personally, my only hard and fast political principles are that the political system should make the world a better place for its inhabitants, and that people's human rights as defined by the UN (not the libertarian idea of rights) should be respected. Things should be judged on a case by case basis, not put against some moral ruler.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: GazzBut]
    #3091437 - 09/04/04 03:25 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Especially as libertarian philosophy is based on the erroneous concept of objective morality.



You are mistaken, people arrive at a 'libertarian' political philosophy from various positions, experiences and reasonings - they are not all cut from the same cloth, as convenient as this might be for you to base your concepts on. Part of libertarian political thought is based on a concept of an objectively applied morality, where actors of the state and all others are held to the same standards. This is not the same as what you criticize. For instance, if it is wrong for an individual to engage in a behavior such as taking of another's property through force, fear of force or fraud, then if an objective standard is applied it must logically follow that individuals acting as agents of the state are acting immorally when they are engaging in the same behavior in an official capacity.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective moral [Re: deafpanda]
    #3091455 - 09/04/04 03:30 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Personally, my only hard and fast political principles are that the political system should make the world a better place for its inhabitants

the problem with that is that it's not a "hard and fast" political principle. there are many people who would agree with that principle and just as many ideas about what "a better place" means. that's why we're in this mess we're in now.

and that people's human rights as defined by the UN (not the libertarian idea of rights) should be respected.

the UN declaration of human rights includes the notion of positive rights, a notion that isn't even internally consistent (read: verifiably false).

for me, it really comes down to this:

Libertarianism\Capitalism\Classical Liberalism:

1. based on a *nearly* universal theory of the basic human right to attempt to survive.
2. internally consistent.

Everything else:

1. requires the rejection of the above universal human right.
2. internally contradictory.

even if libertarianism is based on an unprovable assumption (aren't all philosophies in some way?), i think it's a pretty safe assumption to make (and a dangerous one not to), and at least it's internally consistent. i also feel that as far as practical considerations go, it leads to the most prosperous society. voluntary interaction between human beings benefits all and harms none.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective moral [Re: ]
    #3091477 - 09/04/04 03:36 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

the problem with that is that it's not a "hard and fast" political principle. there are many people who would agree with that principle and just as many ideas about what "a better place" means. that's why we're in this mess we're in now.




This is what I think politicians should do, work out what the better place is and how we best attain it.

I totally agree that all political philosophies are based on unproved assumptions. If one could logically be proved, it would be implemented and never fruitfully questioned.

Quote:

i also feel that as far as practical considerations go, it leads to the most prosperous society




And this is what political debate should try to establish - what leads to the most prosperous (or maybe happiest, best standard of living, or a few different words that could replace "prosperous")society.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: ]
    #3498006 - 12/14/04 05:26 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

To save myself a lot of typing I'm bumping this thread. It is relevant to the discussion in the current thread titled "Objectivism?" which started life in the Politics, Activism & Law forum but has since been moved to the Spirituality and Philosophy forum -- http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3485033/an/0/page/0

I will move this thread over to S&P as well in order to facilitate the continued discussion of a particular aspect of the philosophy of Objectivism: specifically whether it is possible to arrive at an objective moral code of behavior for humans (or ethics, if you prefer) based on observable reality as opposed to a moral code based on divine revelation or popular opinion of the moment or any other arbitrary procedure.

Those S&P regulars who choose to read this thread will note that the tone of the discussion which took place before this post is more prickly than is the norm in S&P. I ask that you not complain about this to the mods of S&P -- it is not their fault. Remember that this thread started life in a different forum with different rules and a different ambience.

To those PA&L regulars who wish to continue the discussion here, please remember that the rules are different in S&P and that things which the PA&L mods have often let pass may not be appreciated in this new venue. I have every confidence the PA&L denizens will respect this difference and comport themselves admirably.


pinky


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OfflinePed
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Re: can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality? [Re: Phred]
    #3498143 - 12/14/04 05:48 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Well spoken.

An objective morality can only be assembled based upon the most fundamental inclinations of those to whom the moral structure is relevant. Put another way, the ethics upheld by an objective moral code must fit two criteria: 1) relevance to all those to whom the moral code will apply, and 2) condusive only to those wishes which all observers of the code have in common.

Since human beings appear to be the only species with a historical fixation on ethical conduct and morality, I'm going to speak about an objective moral code with relevance to human beings, and to what all human beings have in common.

All human beings have the wish to avoid the experience suffering and disatisfaction, and to be happy and secure. If we are to construct an objective moral code, each facet of that code must be decided with this most fundamental human wish in mind. Furthermore, anyone who is to contribute to such a moral code must possess wisdom so vast that he or she is able to assemble a set of values which have relevance to every human being of every culture, of every age, of every conceivable human situation.

Is it possible to achieve such a task, to bring into existence an absolute, objective morality? I believe so. A few individuals have composed ethical structures with just such eloquence, and just such amazingly universal insight. Such individuals are celebrated by entire populations, and have become the figureheads of religious schools. Reading their teachings, I've found their insights to be movingly profound, their advice relevant even now, two thousand, three thousand, or even six thousand years later.


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