Damnit, I go on and on about, not using opinions in arguments, and what do I do? I insert an opinion in an argument. Sorry about that.
"Cultures that have sex with animals and small children are immoral."
Please remove this from your brain, it is an opinion that I have not substantiated.
I am NOT arguing cultural relativism. This is true. I am not arguing that what ANY culture does is ok/ moral because the culture is different. I am arguing that the underlying ACT CAN be judged regardless of cultural differences. This definition of ETHICAL RELATIVISM MAY HELP.
"Ethical relativism is the theory that holds that morality is relative to the norms of one's culture. That is, whether an action is right or wrong depends on the moral norms of the society in which it is practiced. The same action may be morally right in one society but be morally wrong in another. For the ethical relativist, there are no universal moral standards -- standards that can be universally applied to all peoples at all times. The only moral standards against which a society's practices can be judged are its own. If ethical relativism is correct, there can be no common framework for resolving moral disputes or for reaching agreement on ethical matters among members of different societies. "
To be fair, it was my intention to avoid being pigeon holed into an existing, narrow genre' of philosophy. But, I failed, the fact is I seem to be arguing the antithesis of ETHICAL RELITIVISM. I accept that as an axiom. I admit, that while evidence exists to show that I am takeing a stance in opposition to ethical/cutural relitivism, it is not necessary to the argument that one dicuss the relevance of either; pro or con of cultural relitivism. This is what I meant by the statement "I AM NOT ARGUING CULTURAL RELITIVISM". The broad view of either is unnecessary to the argument.
I am makeing an argument that one can condem an act in a culture ONLY when one has reduced that act to it's basics. To understand those basics, it is necessary to look beyond the surface of the culture.
I assume that since I have apologized for the intrusion of an unsupported opinion that this statement is now clear.
"At one time you contend that the morality of an action is relative to what a specific culture possess (in this case their technology), but at the next say that a culture that engages in sex with animals is decidedly immoral. "
The act is NOT relative to the culture, I said that the act's MORALITY is HIDDEN BY THE CULTURE. I used technology as an argument tool because I believe that we, westerners, can relate to the lack of technology being a hinderance to seeing an act's morality/immorality. In considering the argument, the difference between a moral act of abortion and the moral act of infantacide.
I don't want to copy/paste to much. Here I am refering to your statment on sex with monkeys.
Yes, if you decide that sex with monkeys is immoral without looking at the cultural bias that leads to the decision then that is "cultural ignorance". But, you may, after removing that cultural bias, relating the ACT to a FUNDAMENTAL moral and comparing that fundamental moral to your cultural experience, then decide that the ACT fails to exist in the realm of morality. Perhaps, because you don't believe that forest spirits exist, and , further, that the natives explanation of their existance lacks any proof, you could, fairly judge the act immoral. I would choose to judge the act in it's completeness, can the monkey give consent? If this is a no; then the act could be construed as immoral because the act, the monkeys feelings aside, can never be anything but usery, of course this would lead to the argument about cows. I don't think that I have ever asked the "donor" of my steak if it was ok to kill them. But those arguments dont' lead to an underlying human morals,they are not examples of, a human to human relation. There is cause to look at our treatment of animals in a moral/immoral sense but I don't think I can make a case for it here.
It was my fault for throwing in an opinion and then makeing a broad statement about not arguing cultural relitivism without explanation. And, making that broad, OPINION,statment about sex with animals and small children.
We don't need to explore cultural/ethical relitivism to determine if an act is moral. We DO need to find those basic premises that COULD support the proposition that the act is moral. Failing in that, then the act becomes immoral.
"When describing the Westners act of abortion you state "for WESTERNERS early term abortion is a moral act". This is a claim about the moral justifiability of abortion, pre-birth and by this statement it is implicit that infanticide for westners is a morally rephrensible act."
YOU ARE CORRECT, that is EXACTLY what I am doing. Westerners view(generality) infantacide as "morally reprehensible". To add the view of "cultural relitivists", they would contend that the act is moral because different cultures cannot judge different cultures. My postion is that, different cultures CAN judge different cultures, but only if the ACT is considered sans bias. This is were I am going, underlyig human morals do exist cross culture; Not because the culture cannot be judged, but because the ACT can be judged. Again, the act can only be judged in light of cultural bias.
I like argument also, or else I wouldn't be typing this. But, as you pointed out in your reply. I used two, broad, statements without any support whatsoever, and it completely changed the nature of what you had to say. Instead of arguing the fundamental human moral argument, you were put in the position of trying to argue my OPINIONS. Sucks don't it. In argument/discussion this is commonly referred to as arguing, Petitio Principii.
Or circular reasoning.
ONE MORE TIME. IT IS MY FAULT FOR INSERTING TWO BROAD STATEMENTS OF OPINION WITHOUT SUBSTANTIAL EXPLANATION.
Now, see what you can do to find another example of an underlying human moral that is hidden by the culture in which it exists.
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