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OfflineAzmodeus
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Moral Absolutes
    #1531216 - 05/08/03 04:55 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

This is a subject that has been troubling me for some time now. I understand why people would feel the need to uphold such moral "absolutes" like it is wrong to kill, but to enforce those morals all over the world would be ridiculous to say the least.

I have come to the conclusion that there are no moral absolutes. There is only the reality. If someone is killed, it could be for any number of reasons, including survival but the cause is not what matters, only the result. People who knew that person, or contributed to thier demise then make up justification, cause, blame, but such notions are only thought and have no bearing on any other form of life, save human.

Morality does not exist in nature. Animals are killed brutally by other animals, for food, defense, mating rituals, leadership, any number of reasons, but none of these are taken into account when it happens in nature, because they are irrelevant, it is only the result that effects the reality.

But what makes this relevent in human society? It is because of language, ego, intellegance, and society where the differance comes into play. To kill someone in life, we need to "justify" it so that others dont judge us wrongly (or rightly in some cases) and basically to excuse the act, or benefit from it. It all seems like a big game, but a serious one in which loosing can result in you being brought to "justice", and winning can declare you a hero, its all in the peoples invovled minds.

Now what was bothering me was whether someone has the right or obligation to uphold said moral absolutes when a violation of them occurs. If my family was being attacked i would kill to defend them. But what if the neighboors family was being unjustly raided? I know it is morally wrong, yet why would i sacrifice myself for whats "right"? If i traded clothes for food to him, he might directly effect my well being and entice me to defend him, but not out of moral obligation.

Basically i think its morals and conflicts between the two that make for so much conflict. Nature is anarchy, yet it is balanced, not nescessarily fair or "right", yet its existed longer than any other human system. I am still thinking on this matter, and would appreciate any insights, comments, or critisisms you can offer....


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1531221 - 05/08/03 04:57 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

In another post you suggested that if some belief is the culturall upheld belief, then it is morally correct. My responce was that, in America, it is the belief of the majority that we should have invaded Iraq. by your reasoning, isn't that a morally correct action?

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1531235 - 05/08/03 05:00 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I also posted this in the political forum because i feel the two forums would offer very different veiws.  Johnny ill address this in the other forum.  Im talking philisophicaly and spritually here... :smile:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1531249 - 05/08/03 05:05 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

what about the idea that deep down inside we all have some unconditional love for each other and don't want to see harm done to another one of our species?

i think maybe that's some form of collective mental survival.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: Grav]
    #1531295 - 05/08/03 05:16 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yes but that "feeling" i think is very different than "moral absolutes". That is something we may all have the potential for, but what if im killing an evil people because they believe that women should have thier faces covered, and so by enforcing my moral absolutes upon them am simotaneously violating them....just as doing nothing would be.



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1532053 - 05/08/03 09:07 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

you're right, there are no moral absolutes outside of one's perception


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: ]
    #1532167 - 05/08/03 09:46 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I believe logic is the key. Morals cause many things, some good others bad, but in the end they can only lead to conflict as they are all subjective to the individual, or society.

With ego-less logic, we can realise the futility of benefiting off anothers expense, and begin to co-exist in a harmonius, balanced enviornment. In balance with nature we would be nomadic, hunting, foraging, and farming while respecting the land which provides for us. I truly believe this is how it should be.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1532180 - 05/08/03 09:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

yes, living in harmony with the land is the only way to go

were going to end up like atlantis at the rate were going now


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: ]
    #1532188 - 05/08/03 09:54 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

when a species has a huge increase in population, it destroys its environment.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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OfflineWaveRider
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: Grav]
    #1534303 - 05/09/03 12:32 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

what about the idea that deep down inside we all have some unconditional love for each other and don't want to see harm done to another one of our species?

i think maybe that's some form of collective mental survival. 




This is true, it is called survival of the species. However it only works if the number of individuals do not outweight the resources of the land, which is not the case in this society. In this society the numbers are too large hence there is need to "eliminate" a large number of individuals at a time. In the wild the maintainance of balance is kept by predation, accidental death, disease and other such controls. Since we have detached ourselves from our environment those population controls do not apply so, instead, we are subjucted to wars, crimes (both violent and non-violent) and an extreme number of disease (some of which cannot be found in any other species). This is why humans cannot "just get along!"  :frown:     


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"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer, the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear, permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it is gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path."


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1535504 - 05/09/03 08:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Even if there were such a thing as moral absolutes, there's no way anyone could know what they are, since no one can see outside of their own subjective reality.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: silversoul7]
    #1537282 - 05/10/03 05:45 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Morals, and laws for that matter, are concpets that we have socially evolved into to further propagate our particular social groups intended development and survival. Our concept of social evolution is that what we feel as a collective group will best suit our needs. As long as we don't perceive other social groups to be a theat or a potential victim to suit our needs, we can coexist harmoniously. I don't feel that natural resources dictate whether or not we can live peacfully with other social groups though. The large majority of the global population are peaceful people, they keep the combatents at bay. Laws really only insure that the "moral majority's" values are adherred to. There can be no moral absolutes because my idea of right can be drastically different than your idea of right.

Waverider:
I would also disagree with the theory that we would use war and crime as a form of population control. We have not detached ourselves from the environment, it has only changed, and 2 of the 3 reason you list as population control are still extremley prevalent today. Predation is the only thing that a small minority of the population are exposed to. The reason people "can't just get along" is simply their ideas and control of their morality, whether it be an individual or social group.

I think the real question is are there any absolutes. I think no. Everything to me is a probability. I can't find a reason to believe other wise, it is still only 99% true.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Offline3MJ3
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: silversoul7]
    #1537302 - 05/10/03 06:03 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Weren't moral absolutes introduced with the concept of religion? Everything in the phenomenal world is relative, all being dependant on one another, a sort of co-existance of concepts in a symbiotic relationship to eachother. But as soon as you introduce the element of an omnipitent creator, a 'higher' being, then you have the dogmatism that follows with one who believes the theological doctrine. How can one decide one's own morality if they believe in the morality instilled by a deity, an entity that is much greater and wiser than the individual. What is willed by the deity is more important than what is willed by the individual, thus the will of the deity is absolute, never changing by conflicts between the two parties, man and God, as one is always said to be greater to the other. Thus the moral standard remains a constant, absolute, without objection.

Otherwise, morality is not absolutist, it can only be relative in that what is moral is what causes the least amount of conflict for everybody. Our search for this morality is refined over and over again through history and the mistakes that are made by man throughout the ages. So it is our job as a collective human race to learn from those mistakes and evolve morally.......

i&I



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Offlinesoylent_green
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1537568 - 05/10/03 08:13 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:



With ego-less logic, we can realise the futility of benefiting off anothers expense, and begin to co-exist in a harmonius, balanced enviornment. In balance with nature we would be nomadic, hunting, foraging, and farming while respecting the land which provides for us. I truly believe this is how it should be. 





:smile:


--------------------
What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?


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Offline3MJ3
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: soylent_green]
    #1537575 - 05/10/03 08:18 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I agree, but good luck trying to achieve such a result! The social paradigm has always been to gain authority over others, and that's how it will remain untill there is a moral evolution and it is no longer such, but more an encouragment of collaborative efforts, equal work, to achieve together. Till' then, you're on your own (as is the social paradigm), but I'm still with you on this one :smile:

i&I


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1541579 - 05/12/03 01:49 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

3mj3, you wrote: So it is our job as a collective human race to learn from those mistakes and evolve morally.......

But sinse morality is subjective, and there are more than one religion with a superior god, the whole concept of morality can only lead to conflict.
We need to move away from "morality", and use logic more. But how do we move from our morally based society to the selfless logic that would allow us to see outside of "society"?

The only way i've been able to selflessly veiw the world is under the influence of an entheogen, i believe these are our tools to help the evolution, but there is such a change to be made i doubt we will succeed before we destroy our planet with our false concept of right and wrong, good and evil.

But do we all agree that morals could NOT be absolute to anyone but an idividual?


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1541585 - 05/12/03 01:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The social paradigm has always been to gain authority over others, and that's how it will remain untill there is a moral evolution and it is no longer such,




This is the change i can only see occuring with ego-less logic. I dont believe morality can evolve into a term applicable to each individual.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineWaveRider
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1544841 - 05/13/03 12:56 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


The only way i've been able to selflessly veiw the world is under the influence of an entheogen, i believe these are our tools to help the evolution, but there is such a change to be made i doubt we will succeed before we destroy our planet with our false concept of right and wrong, good and evil.

But do we all agree that morals could NOT be absolute to anyone but an idividual?




I feel there is another way to reach this egoless view of our world, through a path of self discovery. I think that the main reason why people have need for government and rules and morals is because there is self doubt. How can we be at peace with our neighbours if we don't even know ourselves? The path to self discovery, however, is one of sacrifice (as most often one will need to leave their comfort) and valor (as there is no telling what dark secrets lies within oneself). Each person must take on this task for themselves and that is where the problem lies. How many people in this world are ready to return to nature? Or face the demons inside themselves? How many would be willing to give up their brand new car or cable TV and spend their time meditating and thinking about life itself? I can say that, from personal experience, I know very few people (fewer yet who have not taken entheogen) who are ready to face that path. I agree with you Azmodous, until we are ready to accept our own path, there will be needless deaths (from wars caused by ignorant fools who sit in power, from starvation and disease) and suffering and pain. We will have to make a decision very soon, I think, or there will be no more EARTH to fight over.


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer, the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear, permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it is gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path."


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Offline3MJ3
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: WaveRider]
    #1544946 - 05/13/03 01:46 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Azmodeus:

Morality is subjective....but the morality I describe as needing an evolution through what you describe as 'ego-less' logic (a term I really like) is speaking of the general morale. That is the point of the evolution. To create an almost 'global morality' which would transcend the boundaries of say...religion, politics, and social difference. It cannot be applied to the individual seperately, because it will always incorporate a universal consciousness.....giving thought to all moral agents that co-exist with us. I like your idea of an ego-less logic, perhaps this is what will cause such an evolution, but it will become the new standard for morality in such an evolution. Morality is not concretely seen as imperatives.....you should do this, don't do this, don't do that....it is really what benefits the greatest number of people with the least harm caused. So if this ego-less logic you speak of would be implemented to cause such a global evolution.,,this would be seperate from the morals of theological orthodoxy or politcs/ cultural structure so as to minimize harm from conflict. It would be moral, to implement this system.
Thus, a 'moral' evolution, not an evolution of morals.

I can see your view point, that changing morality would cause rifts...and that we need a different mechanism which leaves what we know as morality untouched........'ego less logic' ....it sounds 'logical' to me:)

i&I


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Offline3MJ3
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Re: Moral Absolutes [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1544961 - 05/13/03 01:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I'll address your first post aswell:

You questioned the evolution of morals which I brought up.

This is from my belief that we are in a continuum of evolution, physically, mentally, morally. Morality is the highest form of evolution. The way we evolve morally is by learning from the mistakes we make in history and learn from them. For instance, we think it is wrong to do public executions.....but that wasn't the case in past history....thus we evolved morally with regard to that issue. That's all I was insinuating.

i&I


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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