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Anonymous |
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i say no, they're absolute.
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Clyster Registered: 07/12/99 Posts: 4,805 Loc: On the Brink of |
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I say they're heteroabsolute.
-------------------- Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Harbinger ofEldr Registered: 03/10/99 Posts: 1,456 Loc: Under your bed Last seen: 18 years, 5 months |
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Could you explain why you think they're absolute?
-------------------- "If you had a million years to do it in, you couldn't rub out even half the 'Fuck you' signs in the world."- J. D. Salinger
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enthusiast Registered: 02/25/01 Posts: 232 Last seen: 21 years, 3 months |
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I agree that there are SOME moral absolutes. To an extent these absolutes are hidden by cultural ignorance. This essay deals with a complex and often argued topic. I apologize but it's one I've had sitting around a while. It is NOT MY INTENTION to argue for or against the example I've included. It is just a far-reaching example meant to illustrate a possible scenario(s) where the underlying moral premise may not be readily seen.
Yes, basic human morals do exist. Yes, condemnation of cultures outside of "yours"(meaning, anybody elses), is "cultural arrogance"; more precisely, cultural IGNORANCE. It is when we are practicing "cultural ignorance" that we fail to look beyond the, cultural differences, and, using our own culture, thrust upon others the mantle of immorality. The nature of the act cannot be said to be immoral, if we have not taken into consideration, the cultural differences involved; especialy when we have not examined the act in light of cultural differences. A simple example: Has anybody visited Japan? How about those bathrooms? This is an expcert from a young japanese woman: "In Japan, we have two bathrooms in the common house, the place you use the bathroom ("toire"), and the place you take a baths or showers ("ofuro"). These two are in separate rooms. The "Toire" room is usually very small, with only the toilet and the sink you wash your hands in. "Ofuro" usually has bathtub (deeper and smaller than Western style bathtub), and the space that you wash your body. The Japanese toilet is usually "squat" style, but more and more houses tend to have Western-style toilet. Even if the house is old and has a squat style toilet, there are ways to have construction done to let you have a Western-style toilet instead of the Japanese style. If construction is done, we Japanese buyers no longer suffer from sore legs because of squatting for extended periods of time, or leg pains when we have leg problems In Japan, not only the bathrooms at home are different, but Japanese public restrooms have differences from American ones. Even though many toilets in Japanese homes today have adopted the Western-style toilet, Japanese-style toilets seem more common in public restrooms. Since Japanese people are used to squatting, they do not want to touch the same toilet as other people. Also, Japanese public bathrooms usually do not supply bathroom tissue or paper towels, people usually bring some small tissues and a handkerchief. If you forgot to prepare, do not worry, there is usually a tissue vending machine in front of the bathroom. As for handkerchief, many men and some women just let their hands dry by shaking them which is what the Japanese call "Shizen Kansoo"(natural dry). You can read the rest here: But I hardly think that how one uses a bathroom relays a "basic human moral", but it does speak to the, less thought of, cultural differences. So, if you have a Japanese guest, don't be "culturaly arrogant", if you know that that bathroom was out of toilet paper; she just came prepared. How about a HARD and complicated example, of the underlying basic human morals, that all cultures share; it's hard to find them, because we fail to look deeply at the problem. We, mostly westerners, fail to look beyond our initial outrage, shock and disgust, to find the basic premise that underlies the action that shocked us. Lets consider this argument: Infantacide is a moraly repugnant, reprehensible act, that should not be condoned under ANY circumstances. Further, that while abortion is legal and cases arise where one may have to choose between the mother and the unborn, once the baby is born, it is morally wrong to kill it. Those cultures that persist in infantacide CANNOT make a case for moral justification, and there is no UNDERLYING, basic human moral premise. I will include my counter argument at the end of my case scenarios. For the sake of argument, in a very narrow definition, and excluding the relevance of a religous or personal value, lets consider that, for WESTERNERS, EARLY TERM abortion is a moral act. Understandably, there are those for which abortion is never going to be a moral act. I am sure that there are a few extremists (this is not a negative term; simply descriptive when compared to the median), given the option of dying pregnant or aborting and living, would, happily, choose to die. Insofar as the supreme court has ruled abortions, at the very least, legal AND that women do have abortions(I live in the US, so my argument is from an obviously western view point); I am more inclined to judge the morality on the circumstances involved. My argument will contend that, since I am a man, I will never have to make this choice. As such, and being a firm believer in liberty without the interference of the "MORAL majority", I can only conclude that what a woman does with her life and body must be between her, her circumstances, her family and her God. Let's consider some simplistic scenarios and see if we can postulate the underlying basic moral premise. (in some cases, I have PURPOSELY chosen extreme scenarios where the act COULD be moral to some basic religious doctorines) Scenario one: Doc: Mrs. Smith, you don't have the flu; you're pregnant. MS: How can that be? I'm 47 years old. Doc: Mrs. Smith, your age is not the deciding factor as to whether a woman MIGHT become pregnant. You are sexualy active and you have viable eggs. MS: Well, I guess another suprise is in order for my husband. Doc: But, your age does increase the odds of some birth defects and that is what I would like to talk to you about. Mrs. Smith, the sonogram and blood tests revealed some abnormalities, I would like to do an amniocentesis. The amnio reveals, coupled with a later sonogram, severe spinal defects and downs syndrome; Mrs. Smith chooses surgical abortion. Scenario two Doc: Mrs. Smith, you don't have the flu: you're pregnant. MS: I see; what are my options, for abortion. Doc: You are only at day 32 so your options would include RU-486, herbal abortion or surgical abortion. Mrs. Smith, decides that an herbal abortion would be the safest for her. Scenario three: Doc: Mrs. Smith; you're pregnant. MS: I know, I tested myself. Doc: Mrs. Smith, we did some tests. I am afraid that your baby has type 2 Gaucher's disease. MS: Can I carry it to full term? Doc: While you probably can, the prognosis of life expectancy, for a baby born with type2 is less than 2 years. MS: What are my options for abortion? Doc: It is to late for a chemical option, I would suggest a surgical abortion. After getting a second opinion, Mrs. Smith chooses to end her pregnancy. Now, lets examine some scenarios where the culture engages in "infantacide". (again, I must caution you, I am writing from a western view, I have no direct experiences to draw upon for these particular scenarios; just some research and pondering) Scenario four: The oldest woman in the village is with child, her husbands, contrive to get her the necessary herbs to end her pregnancy, but there is a drought and there are no herbs to be found. So, the pregnancy goes full term. When labor commences the village healer goes with the woman; to aid her in giving birth. The labor is very long, and the woman is near death when the infant finaly emerges. Upon seeing the baby, the healer, notices severe deformitys in the infants spine and distinct facial anomilys that she has seen before. Before the mother can regain conciousness, the healer, takes the infant outside, smashs it's head with a stone and buries it; telling the women later that the infant was born dead. Scenario five: A young woman comes to the village healer and confesses that she is with child. The village healer tells the woman's parents that, the woman suffers from an illness, the illness can be treated, but requires the young woman to journey weeks away to find the right herbs. The young woman travels to a village far away from hers, and lives with a relative of the healer. The pregnancy is without difficulty and the birth is easy. Two days into her journey back home, the young woman leaves the infant to the whims of nature, and arrives healthy and without the infant. Scenario six: A new bride comes to the village healer, she is pregnant, and wishes counsel. The healer asks which of her husbands is the father. The woman answers that she is not sure, but doubts it could be her second husband, she uses herbs when she is with him; as the healer recommended. The pregnancy is normal, the labor not terribly difficult. After the infant is born, the healer puts the infant on the mothers breast, the mother hurriedly examines the infant. Noticing a distinct birth mark, the woman sighs, hands the infant back to the healer, saying, this is my second husbands child . The healer takes the infant outside, smashs its head with a rock and buries it. We have six scenarios in which abortion or infantaside is the end result. What is the underlying basic moral premise? Yes, I have left out, "critical, need to know, information". I will now give you that information so that the scenario's, first having been read without that information, can now be looked at with a thought to our cultural bias. By, removing our cultural bias, the underlying moral premise can be determined. Let's use the facts at hand. (scenario)One, the typical tests have ascertained that the child would be badly crippled and lack the capacity to ever live on it's own. As well, the child, having downs syndrome, would most likely be mentaly retarded. The life the child would lead would be that of an automaton, no response to reality, no ability to comprehend the world around it and many surgerys for it's spinal abnormalitys would result in complete paralysis. The womans decision to abort would seem to make sense. Her decision would be to prevent needless suffering, as well as, assuming here, use of resources. Who is to say that her family can afford the care to keep the child alive and healthy? Now, compare the cultural differences in scenario four and see if we can find the underlying moral premise. The, basic cultural differnces, in these two scenario's is, of course, one of technology. Had the village healer had access to amniocentesis, the infant could have been aborted very early in the pregnancy. Take that lack of technology further. Can a village so lacking in technology ever be able to meet the needs of this infant? The village most certainly cannot hope to repair the spinal deformities, the child will most likely die from infections from open areas on it's back. The underlying moral premise, in these cases are the same: the child would not survive for long; the childe would die a slow painful death; should it survive, it's life would be without meaning; the child would suffer greatly in both cases; hence: abortion is a moral act to prevent suffering, infantacide is a moral act to prevent suffering. The cultural differences are what make this a dillema for westerners. We have access to technologies that allow early detection of severe birth defects; others don't. We also have technologies that allow for surgical abortion, whereby, we can ensure the mother survives if a chemical or herbal abortion is incomplete. Let's compare scenario two and five. I left out the critical component, namely, that both women were victims of incestuous rape by their fathers. In the first case, the case was a huge media bonanza, her name was plastered all over the front pages as well as her whole life. Along with the very probable genetic problems that can come from this type of coupling, there is also the matter of her phsychological health. She knows that this is a child that she will never love, the child will, one day, find out about it's conception; what then? For her own life, she aborts the pregnancy. We can now look at the fifth scenario in light of this new information. Of course this scenario parallels the second. The difference, again being, the lack of thechnology to end the pregnancy early. Further, in this culture, the rape victim is the one to blame; she didn't fight hard enough. if she gets pregnant, she and the child are killed by the village. She chose to live. The underlying moral premise is that, a pregnancy, not chosen, or the result of rape is acceptable to end. The last scenario's, three and six, are a bit difficult to ascertain the cause for. I chose to specify a genetic disease that is incurable and can readily be screened for in our culture. In the second one, I left out what knowledge the healer and mother had that led them to their decision. In scenario three, the child would live, but, for only 2 years. The choice for abortion is again used. In scenario six, the second husband has a prominant birth mark, the child also has this birth mark. The knowledge possesed by the healer and passed on to the mother, was that if, the mother and second husband had a child, the child would die because it had an illness that could not be healed. The mother and the second husband being carriers of (something) that, in combination, always manifests itself in children born from this coupling. The underlying moral premise is that the child will suffer greatly and then die; there is nothing to do to prevent this. I can already here your arguments: "So what, abortion is legal, I don't like it but it is legal so it can be said to be moral; maybe. But, killing another human being, even to end it's suffering or to protect anothers life cannot be a moral action". If this was your first thought then you completely forgot to look beyond your cultural arrogance. Considering the lack of technology, how can the second set of women get safe abortions? Don't they have the right to live? By what underlying moral premise can we defend the position that the second set of women acted in an moral way? The underlying moral premise is this: If abortion is a moral action, in a particular scenario, then it follows that infantacide, in that same scenario, is moral. The lack of sophisticated technology is a cultural bias. Not to be harsh, but if you can't end the pregnancy, then the only option is to bear the child and then kill it. It is just a matter of degree, or a matter of a few months really, that determines whether we consider an act, in this case abortion vs. infantacide, moral or immoral.
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ॐ Registered: 08/04/01 Posts: 6,135 Loc: heart cave |
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Is it true to say that ALL people have morals, but that the exact morals they have vary from person to person?
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misc. Registered: 05/10/02 Posts: 137 Loc: Sydney, Australi Last seen: 9 years, 3 months |
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Mr Freedom, I remember that exact same post about 12 months ago. You and I got into quite a debate if I remember correctly...
Ill see if I can dig up a link to that thread.. WIth Metta, Jono. -------------------- Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton
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misc. Registered: 05/10/02 Posts: 137 Loc: Sydney, Australi Last seen: 9 years, 3 months |
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Here we go...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum11&Number=640665&Forum=Forum11 With Metta, Jono. -------------------- Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton
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A Stranger Among ![]() Registered: 03/22/03 Posts: 236 Loc: In The Machine Last seen: 22 years, 6 months |
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There's no such things as morals. Does a dog feel guilty after killing another creature? No. He just eats it! We are still animals, nothing more. Though I think most of us have forgotten that. Were all just bugs working for the colony. Killing another man is wrong! But killing a cow is right? We think of ourselves rather highly, but thats natural, since we pretty much run the planet. OR do we really? Hmmm.
=) -------------------- "Not All Who Wander Are Lost" - Tolkien
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enthusiast Registered: 02/25/01 Posts: 232 Last seen: 21 years, 3 months |
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Well we were GETTING into a damn good discussion when it got a bit derailed and you never went back
![]() As to this post I, of course, remembered this and dug it up. I should have rearranged it sans our discussion but I haven't; yet.
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Stop Bush's war Registered: 01/30/03 Posts: 1,457 Loc: Comfy chair in m Last seen: 1 year, 2 months |
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The people who do the killing and many of the people who do the watching think it is morally OK to kill people in times of war. What about in self defense? I can't think of any particular act that hasn't been considered OK in some cultural or historical context. People make morals, they are not a given, so I beleive it is all relative and there is no right or wrong.
-------------------- Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music. "Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium "My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.
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Reality Hacker Registered: 07/28/02 Posts: 3,599 Loc: Traped in a shel Last seen: 18 years, 11 months |
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Yes, but only slightly. I believe in archetypes.
-------------------- What if everything around you Isn't quite as it seems? What if all the world you think you know, Is an elaborate dream? And if you look at your reflection, Is it all you want it to be?
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Chill the FuckOu Registered: 10/10/02 Posts: 27,301 Loc: mndfreeze's pupp |
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Morals are based on values, and values are totally subjective i.e. some people value certain things over other things. For example, if have a high value for life, you would consider killing to be immoral. But others don't think life is so sacred, so they have no problem with things like war or the death penalty. Some people value free speech whereas others value obedience. Some value vengeance wheras others value forgiveness.
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Reality Hacker Registered: 07/28/02 Posts: 3,599 Loc: Traped in a shel Last seen: 18 years, 11 months |
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Can't argue with that.
-------------------- What if everything around you Isn't quite as it seems? What if all the world you think you know, Is an elaborate dream? And if you look at your reflection, Is it all you want it to be?
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enthusiast Registered: 02/25/01 Posts: 232 Last seen: 21 years, 3 months |
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I most certainly can argue with "that".
Silver, I value LIFE highly, in fact it's right there at the top of my list: life, wife, family. I value MY life over that of most others and would defend my life even should I have to take another life. See, I value life, I've taken life and I've acted within moral boundries. Most morals are only subjective because the person stating, that morals are subjective, has not taken the time to determine, through a rational though process, exactly what their morals are. Worse, they may have simply taken their moral stance from a religious text meaning that NOT only have THEY not thought about their moral stance they are now taking advice from CENTURYS old texts written by men of whom they KNOW NOTHING. I condem neither practice over the other because they are both about the same in reality; in both cases the person has rejected the HARD WORK neccesary to detail their "morals".
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World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS) Registered: 04/27/01 Posts: 7,416 Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri Last seen: 4 months, 10 days |
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Moral is a collective and cultural value, inherent to the social class and to the individual social learning curve.
IMHO, moral itself is not subjective, although what you do with it, what you accept from it, is. MAIA -------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire
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Holoman Registered: 10/27/98 Posts: 5,398 Loc: The Matrix |
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Morals are subjective.
Joshua -------------------- The Shroomery Bookstore Great books for inquiring minds! "Life After Death is Saprophytic!"
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World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS) Registered: 04/27/01 Posts: 7,416 Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri Last seen: 4 months, 10 days |
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I won't argue but take a look at some defenitions:
MAIA -------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire Edited by MAIA (04/21/03 07:48 AM)
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Holoman Registered: 10/27/98 Posts: 5,398 Loc: The Matrix |
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The info you provided looked very empty. I kept seeing the same phrases over and over and over again.
Perhaps the ideal of morality is w/o qualification. I don't think anyone w/ a subjective mind can accurately indicate what is morally right or wrong. I think morals are more of a cultural seasoning. I pose this relevant question: Is the US's involvement in Iraq morally correct? I offer this answer: It is dependant on your subjective perception of the situation. Here is an example. It is either right or wrong to kill according to moral absoluteness w/o qualification. Do we kill the tyrant who kills millions of people? I have thought of many questions that are of moral ambiguity...all it takes is one to disprove that morals are "values that are good without qualification." You are quoting men and their ideas...but they are men w/ subjectivity in their minds. Joshua -------------------- The Shroomery Bookstore Great books for inquiring minds! "Life After Death is Saprophytic!"
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Harbinger ofEldr Registered: 03/10/99 Posts: 1,456 Loc: Under your bed Last seen: 18 years, 5 months |
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Moral objectivity leads to Naziism.
-------------------- "If you had a million years to do it in, you couldn't rub out even half the 'Fuck you' signs in the world."- J. D. Salinger
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Resident Cynic Registered: 10/01/02 Posts: 5,385 Loc: Apt #6, The Vill |
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How do you figure?
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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