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OfflineIAmTheWalrus212
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Death Morals
    #3587833 - 01/06/05 07:51 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

In your opinion, is it moral to not be opposed to the execution of someone responsible for a horrible travesty in history, such as Hitler (if he were executed)?


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OfflineJacquesSauniere
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Re: Death Morals [Re: IAmTheWalrus212]
    #3587846 - 01/06/05 08:07 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

why execute and put them out of their misery?

better to torture and make someone like that endure pain and suffering!


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Death Morals [Re: IAmTheWalrus212]
    #3587861 - 01/06/05 08:24 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It depends on which side you are .... (yes, morals have this kind of subjectivity).
It is moral to uphold life instead of death. Forgiveness is also seen as a moral thing to do.
In this case, you don't forgive and you kill, which is exactly what Hitler did, it's just a change of phase of the whole issue. Executing him will not bring to life all the people he killed, it's useless.
Instead, i would sentence him to live in a desert island with a can of beans ....

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineJacquesSauniere
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Re: Death Morals [Re: MAIA]
    #3588045 - 01/06/05 10:02 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

no i say torture him, let him feel some pain for a chance, and no it wont make right anything he did wrong but does that mean he pays nothing for what he did, if i had the choice i would definately torture him


Edited by JacquesSauniere (01/06/05 10:05 AM)


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Offlineskystone
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Re: Death Morals [Re: JacquesSauniere]
    #3588312 - 01/06/05 11:32 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Well, he wasn't really the untimate evil of the Nazi's
People that killed directly are more responsible. Everyone was responsible for his own actions. Everyone that kills in a war carries his own fault, there is no higher meaning to it all. Killing is killing.

I say detain people that cause and make such horrors, and make sure
that things like that never happen again.

But punishment is identical to the original crime. Both killings are
made out of anger and hate.
Killing an innocent person and killing a murderer is the same thing.
there is no difference. Killing, is killing.

Now it is up to our own opinion and beliefs to decide is killing wrong in general. If you decide it is wrong then you can't really
punish anyone by death, and if you decide that killing is a good thing
then why are you punishing the killer at all? In both cases
killing as a punishment is not logical.

My opinion and belief is that killing is wrong, everything that damages the quality of another being is wrong. Even thoughts of killing, angry thoughts of revenge, are wrong and should be supressed for the sake of the future of our civilisation and our evolution.
Every anger is provoked, every hate is caused, the cause is always an illusion. There is NEVER a reason for hate.
Teh cause is lack of information, or wrong information.

Some people might say "people like Hitler deserve punishment".
To deserve something is an idea fabricated by humans.
It is a translation (into human terms) of the old violence instinct
of animals.
One animal bites the other one, the other one is built for defense, and its body produces hormons that make it feel like the first animal MUST be punished, that it DESERVES something back. And it bits back.
But both animals are just parts of the faceless nature, they both don't deserve anything, good or bad.

It's the same thing with humans. Nobody deserves anything.
Every punishment is either tactical to prevent further damage, or
emotional, a bloodthirsty need for revenge.
The problem is that humans started trusting these negative feelings,
and glorifying them by fabricating the concept of "Justice"

The current idea is that only some people get to use violence,
other's can't. So unless you have papers for making other people suffer, you will be punished becuase you are not authorized to
hurt others.

That has to stop. The violence must stop alltogether, once and for all, either that or we will destroy this planet in a way that not
even ratts will survive after we finish with it.

Punishment with emotions is identical to the crime that is being punished becuase that crime was made with the same emotions.

It is either wrong to make people suffer or not. It can't be conditional because some of the worst bloodsheds were made by this conditionality: If you are a Jew , you will suffer, if you are black you will suffer, if you do not believe in God you will suffer, If
you do not believe in illegality of drugs you will suffer, if you do not believe in our laws you will suffer, if you are not like us you will suffer.

If we are all pieces of the unvierse, we are destroying the unvierse
by hurting each other by any means, crime or punishment, both are wrong.

And do remember this:
You can only make yourself angry, nobody can make your angry but yourself

I forgot who said this so I can'tgive him credits, but It is so true..


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


Edited by skystone (01/06/05 11:38 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Death Morals [Re: IAmTheWalrus212]
    #3588318 - 01/06/05 11:34 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think there's any scenario that can justify homicide, except maybe in the case of assisted "suicide," where the person asks to be killed.


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Death Morals [Re: ]
    #3588353 - 01/06/05 11:48 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

an eye for an eye, and tooth for a tooth. ---how it has to be.


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Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


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InvisibleShroomOmatic
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Re: Death Morals [Re: JacquesSauniere]
    #3588371 - 01/06/05 11:52 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

JacquesSauniere said:
why execute and put them out of their misery?

better to torture and make someone like that endure pain and suffering!




i agree. hitler was a monster.


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OfflineJacquesSauniere
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Re: Death Morals [Re: ShroomOmatic]
    #3588388 - 01/06/05 11:58 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

in response to keystones comment of. . .

And do remember this:
You can only make yourself angry, nobody can make your angry but yourself

i agree with this to a little extent, eg if someone in your household doesnt clean the bathroom after cleaing it, i can get myself angry over someone else's inconsiderate behaiviour or i can decide not to get angry over something not so significant and deal with it.

on the other hand, if someone invaded my country, bombed my house and raped my sister/mother/other females that are close to me then i wouldnt say that i necessarily would have the "choice" to not be angry, it is most likely something that would be unavoidable and and uncontrollable and would come naturally even if i wanted to be angry or not!


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Death Morals [Re: JacquesSauniere]
    #3588476 - 01/06/05 12:28 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

nope ur wrong...Jacques once again. ONLY you can make you mad. period. you should check out the book of Job.! great story about a guy losing all he had and yet he had the choice to deal with it any way he wanted and chose to have faith and be humble.... if i fucked your mom and sister,(hypotheticaly) against their will...as you had to sit there and watch..you could get all kinds off pissed off and torture me or whatever....OR you can be thankfull that i did not murder them too. See? you have the choice to react one way or the other.
you and only you are responsible for your thoughts and your actions.


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Death Morals [Re: skystone]
    #3588552 - 01/06/05 12:56 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Skystone's response was right on. :heart:

To all new faces: Welcome to S+P. :smile:


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Offlineskystone
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Re: Death Morals [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3588723 - 01/06/05 01:46 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Well thank you Cousteau, I'm not suprized to get support from your side..

JacquesSauniere ...

Even if someone rapes everyone you love and kills them, and destroys everything in your life. It your mental attitude towards the problem that makes you angry. Now I am not saying that being angry becuase of such things in unusual, I'm just trying to explain it. There are very few that would remain calm and happy, it's almost impossible. But it is still your own brain and body that makes you angry, it is your mental conditioning.

Supose I took you as a baby and raised you so that me and a group of people I hired react with horror every time someone opens the window,
and we start hitting each other and yelling at each other when someone opens the window, then we kill someone that opens the window.
As a baby, all that you ever saw about opening windows is that it is the most horrible thing you could imagine. And I punish you when you touch the window too. So I brought you up for 30 years with social learning and conditioning so that you believe that opening windows is a deadly sin. I even show you religious texts saying that people that even touch windows burn in hell with eternal agony..

And now you are like 30 years old and I let you out of my controled environment, what do you think your reaction would be to someone that opens the window?

You would feel ,REALLY feel inside that this person "deserves" to die.
And a typical human does not even think about his feelins, because they are sacred to him, they are what SHOULD be to him. And of course humans would fight wars, extinct races, and kill because of this idea of opening windows.

UNLESS you stoped one day and run a selfdiagnostic "program", rethink your own conditioning and overcome everything that I made you to be.
You would realize what shit I was filling your head with.

As we all grow up, we are FULL of shitty conditioning like that, but only a handfull are able to overcome their conditioning , even though that kind of learing is basicly how dogs and piggs learn.

The fact that someone raped your wife or mother is a negative and
unfortunate event because harm is done, but your reaction to it is
relative, it depends on how you program yourself, or how you have been programed.

You know, people are basicly afraid of nothingness, and becuase of
that they are afraid to see this relativity of their own motivations, feelins, rules, laws. They think that all that fake structure is the essence of their existention, and because of that, relativity and lack of structure would mean death. But there is something wonderfull on the other side of chaos.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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OfflineJacquesSauniere
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Re: Death Morals [Re: skystone]
    #3592300 - 01/07/05 04:42 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

hrm, uriahchase i never said i was right, it was just my opinion, you should stop being so righteous in that you can flame someone's opinion to say they were wrong.

i simply advised of how i may react to certain life situations, i didnt say it was the best way to react or if it was the "right" way to react, just how i may possibly react.

comprende? lol


Edited by JacquesSauniere (01/07/05 04:51 AM)


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Death Morals [Re: skystone]
    #3592751 - 01/07/05 09:33 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Right on again, man... you are definitely on the ball, sir. :wink:

Question... what did you mean by "I'm not suprized to get support from your side.."?

Have you been lurking here longer than I assume? :smile:


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Offlineskystone
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Re: Death Morals [Re: JacquesSauniere]
    #3592758 - 01/07/05 09:35 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Jacques, nobody said that it's the wrong or right wey to react.
At least my point was that it is NOT THE ONLY way you can act.
It depends on what you and others make of yourself.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Death Morals [Re: skystone]
    #3592770 - 01/07/05 09:41 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I would find it hard to kill anyone in punishment. I would happily kill Hitler if he was going to continue to kill others, but I couldn't bring myself, nor do I think it's right, to kill someone for revenge.


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OfflineJacquesSauniere
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Re: Death Morals [Re: uriahchase]
    #3592776 - 01/07/05 09:43 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

skytstone, in case you didnt read my last message properly i was writing in response to a comment made to me by uriahchase, i believe i even put his nick in my note and said i was responding to his message, for your clarity i shall show you which comment i was responding to and in fact you will perhaps understand my message a little better

Quote:

uriahchase said:
nope ur wrong...Jacques once again. ONLY you can make you mad. period.



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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Death Morals [Re: JacquesSauniere]
    #3592795 - 01/07/05 09:50 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

JacquesSauniere said:
hrm, uriahchase i never said i was right, it was just my opinion, you should stop being so righteous in that you can flame someone's opinion to say they were wrong.

i simply advised of how i may react to certain life situations, i didnt say it was the best way to react or if it was the "right" way to react, just how i may possibly react.

comprende? lol




i wasn't saying that you said(woah getting kinda chldish here) it was the right way i said that YOU are INCORRECT in stating that you would have "no choice" in a certain matter. YES YOU WOULD. and that's why you were wrong.


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Death Morals [Re: JacquesSauniere]
    #3592855 - 01/07/05 10:14 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Jacques, here is some advice regarding the mechanics of these message boards that will avoid the confusion you're running into:

When responding to a post, there is a seperate "reply" button on EACH post within a thread. (located at the top edge of each post.) If you click the button that corresponds with the post you want to reply to, you won't be sending mixed signals as far as who your reply is supposed to be directed to.

There is a little thing in the header of each post that says "[Re: skystone]". (or other user name, depending on who you're replying to.) This tells everyone who your message is directed at. So if you reply to the wrong post, it confuses others because they see a  "Re:" directed at them, even though your post body mentions someone else's name.

Furthermore, if you use the "quick reply" feature at the bottom of each thread, there is a little drop-down menu that allows you to choose which thread you are replying to.

Using these features will help to avoid confusion.  :smile:


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OfflineJacquesSauniere
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Re: Death Morals [Re: uriahchase]
    #3592857 - 01/07/05 10:15 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

if you re-read when i said "i wouldnt say that i necessarily would have the "choice" to not be angry"

meaning that anger may come to me naturally, in my opinion as ive stated before this is how my response may be towards certain life situations, it was just an opinion and if you read correctly i was not stating that i would do this indefinately, it was how i may react to a situation. i was not stating this was the "only" choice or the only way to react. simple as. again i hope your confusion clears up. and in future if you are going to state someone is "wrong" for stating something then can you be more clear as to what it is that you are referring to as wrong then we wouldnt have this confusion or childish re-reference situation. plus opinions are subjective to that person. we are not here to flame (or atleast i didnt think so).


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