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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinethe universe
Harbinger ofEldritch Despair
Male

Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 1,456
Loc: Under your bed
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Re: Are morals subjective? [Re: Evolving]
    #1480812 - 04/22/03 08:17 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

How can you judge another man's morals? By the virtue of your own of course! What makes you think you know the right morals? I just know my morals. Yours are yours. I'm no facsist. Live and let live.


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"If you had a million years to do it in, you couldn't rub out even half the 'Fuck you' signs in the world."- J. D. Salinger


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Re: Are morals subjective? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1480905 - 04/22/03 08:40 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

Morals are based on values...

Correct. Without values, the concept of "morality" is invalid. You're doing great so far.

...and values are totally subjective i.e. some people value certain things over other things.

Awwww.... and you started off so well. Some values are subjective, not all. One's own life is an objective value. Food, water, and shelter (all things which further life, note) are values.

But others don't think life is so sacred...

The fact that not every individual chooses to recognize value does not change the fact that objective value exists.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Are morals subjective? [Re: Phred]
    #1481198 - 04/22/03 10:06 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

But others don't think life is so sacred...

The fact that not every individual chooses to recognize value does not change the fact that objective value exists.



What makes you so sure?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
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Re: Are morals subjective? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1481606 - 04/22/03 02:43 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Moral, in its nature, is a product of what we belive is wrong or right, as subjective it may seem to you (and it is), it is established by the community and in the community as an issue of objective observation. Morals are teach by parents, school and/or religious faction, they are imposed as a cultural value, so their existence and function is objective for the community.
As an example of its objectivity, morals are one of the basis of any law system, each country has a set of values and morals transformed objectively into laws, imposed to the community.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Are morals subjective? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1481726 - 04/22/03 04:23 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

silversoul7 weites:

What makes you so sure?

Because without human life, "moral" is a null concept. So is "value". Human life is the standard without which morality cannot exist, therefore human life is an objective value.

pinky


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Are morals subjective? [Re: the universe]
    #1482081 - 04/22/03 07:52 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

You still did not explain your statement, "Moral objectivity leads to Naziism.
" One can hold an objective human moral standard (such as 'live and let live') and never become a Nazi, one can embrace moral relativism and any atrocity may be justified.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (04/22/03 07:54 PM)


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Offlinethe universe
Harbinger ofEldritch Despair
Male

Registered: 03/11/99
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Re: Are morals subjective? [Re: Evolving]
    #1482375 - 04/22/03 09:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I'm saying since we all choose our own morals that even the moral of "live and let live" is subjective. If you have a moral that you think is objective, then you're kidding yourself. I do agree that moral relativism can lead to atrocity's too. When I said that moral objectivity leads to naziism, that was hyperbole. What I mean is that if you believe your morals are objective, and therefore universally right, you may feel an obligation to assert your morals on others. That's a bad thing. According to me, you may have a different moral understanding of that however.


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"If you had a million years to do it in, you couldn't rub out even half the 'Fuck you' signs in the world."- J. D. Salinger


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Offlinemr freedom
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: Are morals subjective? [Re: the universe]
    #1482969 - 04/23/03 12:27 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

"What I mean is that if you believe your morals are objective, and therefore universally right, you may feel an obligation to assert your morals on others. That's a bad thing."

Actually, thats immoral. :smile: 


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/29/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
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Re: Are morals subjective? [Re: mr freedom]
    #1483237 - 04/23/03 02:07 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

All humans are born with spiritual and/or biological instincts. We are all humans who are from the same pool of contiousness. Archetypes are hard to find in yourself, but they are there.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleJoshua
Holoman
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Registered: 10/27/98
Posts: 5,398
Loc: The Matrix
Re: Are morals subjective? [Re: Murex]
    #1483646 - 04/23/03 04:01 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Archetypes and morals are different ideas. I do not agree with everything you are saying.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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Offlineenotake2
Stop Bush's war
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Registered: 01/31/03
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Re: Are morals subjective? [Re: Joshua]
    #1484804 - 04/23/03 08:48 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

> "Moral, in its nature, is a product of what we belive is wrong or right, as subjective it may seem to you (and it is), it is established by the community and in the community as an issue of objective observation. Morals are teach by parents, school and/or religious faction, they are imposed as a cultural value, so their existence and function is objective for the community.
As an example of its objectivity, morals are one of the basis of any law system, each country has a set of values and morals transformed objectively into laws, imposed to the community."

If this were the case then not using some drugs would be a moral imperitive, and most of this community would be immoral. I don't think it is immoral to use those drugs because unlike most other laws, you are only pontentially hurt yourself, no-one else. Also drugs that are more harmful (ie tobacco and alcohol) are legal. What if the law is wrong? Also a lot of laws are made by corrupt polititions for self or political interest. eg. the new ASIO laws here in Australia and corresponding laws that limit civil liberties in your country. I'm still for subjectivity of morals. I don't think we could all agree on a set of morals by which we should all live. On the other hand I think that if you are a compassionate person, you would not *want* to do some things eg. killing other being, though I don't think that would make it immoral to do so in a particular context eg. self defense.


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Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.

"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium

"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.


Edited by enotake2 (04/23/03 08:55 AM)


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OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
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Re: Are morals subjective? [Re: enotake2]
    #1485307 - 04/23/03 02:06 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Regarding drugs and its acceptance, if everybody were like you, then the morals would be to look at drugs and its use as something accepted. That does not happen, although you think things should be different, the fact is that society doesn't care about what you think. The majority commands the social aparatus and consequently the morals and values.
As i said before, morals can be considered objective in its nature because it exists beyond the subject or group of subjects in a determined time, besides, morals are a collective value not a personal or private value although its analysis is, thus it becomes subjective in interpretation.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Offlineenotake2
Stop Bush's war
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Re: Are morals subjective? [Re: MAIA]
    #1485366 - 04/23/03 04:07 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

So if I don't accept some of societies morals what does that make me - immoral or just a persons with different morals? What about Christians who take a supposed 'high moral ground' - if they conform to their own morals that are not the accepted morals of society are they immoral? It's a fallacy of logic to generalise from a class to a subclass eg. dogs have four legs, hair, ears, etc, but a dog with three legs because one was amputated because of cancer is still a dog. Actually maybe you could argue there are both shared 'objective' and subjective morals. I don't beleive in right or wrong morals though.


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Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.

"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium

"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.


Edited by enotake2 (04/23/03 10:54 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Are morals subjective? [Re: Phred]
    #1487734 - 04/24/03 07:23 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Well done. :smile:


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InvisibleJoshua
Holoman
Male

Registered: 10/27/98
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Re: Are morals subjective? [Re: MAIA]
    #1487786 - 04/24/03 07:47 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The essence of morality is subjective IMO.

Objectivity requires no morality or framework of interpretation. Objectivity is raw and without interpretation.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Are morals subjective? [Re: ]
    #1488506 - 04/24/03 02:58 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

From a transcendental perspective, there is no difference between subjective and objective. From an empirical perspective, Reality may lean to the subjective pole, as in Heisenberg's observations, or Schroedinger or even Jung (who refers to the Self as the 'objective reality' only to differentiate it from the limited ego-centric perspective).

Morality, if understood as motives and subsequent behaviors, flowing from being-to-being in a 'horizontal' dimension, can be based upon arbitrary rules, philosophic utilitarianism, or other contrivances. Morality which is the 'horizontal' manifestation of an Absolute Truth (the 'vertical dimension') can be considered to be Absolute. If, for example, the Nature of Ultimate Reality is experienced/known/believed to be Compassion, as in Buddhism, Islam ('Allah the Merciful, the Compassionate'), and even Christianity ('God is love'), then morality which based upon this Truth is Absolute.

Much could be said about the 'metaphysical mechanics' of this process from a Tibetan Buddhist perspective, or from a Christian art-symbolism perspective, but for now, this should suffice to make a stand.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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