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Offlinecontam
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Registered: 08/14/03
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basis for morality?
    #2064421 - 11/02/03 08:17 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

What is the basis for ethics/morality?

Did it just come about as a necessity of living together in communities?

Do our ideas of "justice" and "virtue" have real independent objective existence or are they just the creation and fantasy of humanity?

Is there some principle behind morality or is it just all subjective and relative to some human utility?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: basis for morality? [Re: contam]
    #2064454 - 11/02/03 09:17 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I think the idea of ethics came about from necessity for advancement of culture. I mean, it is sort of hard to grow as a species if cannibalism is allowed. We really wouldn't be able to advance if people walked around with axes slaying people in the streets.

These ideas were created by us. But they were created for a good reason..
Peace.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
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For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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Offlinecontam
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Re: basis for morality? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2064478 - 11/02/03 09:43 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

so good = advancement of culture

so what does advancement of culture mean? is it greater knowledge? increase in GDP? increase in living standard?


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Invisiblemuhurgle
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Registered: 10/29/03
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Re: basis for morality? [Re: contam]
    #2064514 - 11/02/03 10:23 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I think a lot of it boils down to egoism. We have to behave in a certain way, because that's how we want other people to behave towards us, or we are offered some kind of reward (going to heaven for christians, etc.).


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: basis for morality? [Re: muhurgle]
    #2064539 - 11/02/03 10:57 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Im not sure about broader concepts of "morals" and "ethics", but in our everyday lives we see this being used to justify individual intersts, values, and behaviours which we are taught are "amoral" and "unethical". As an example, "stealing" is not "stealing" when KennyBoy and Enron do it. In this case, the moral prohibition against "stealing" exists strictly to uphold an authoritarian hierarchy. If the poor steal from the poor, then its "stealing"; but if the rich steal from the poor, then its "structural adjustment"; in fact, a failure to carry out such acts is viewed as an amoral action because its "taking money away from ppl that deserve it", when the only reason why they "deserve" it is due to their ability to act in an agressive and unethical fashion.

Or to put it more concisely, its all relative...

edit: I should also add that individual ambitions within the mainstream are driven by a desire to entertain sadistic fantasies ("power is the capacity to inflict unlimited pain and suffering on another/power is an end, not a means/God is power" [George Orwell]) and yet our society does not consider such a pursuit, nor its implementation once achieved, as "amoral"


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (11/02/03 11:29 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: basis for morality? [Re: contam]
    #2064554 - 11/02/03 11:09 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

contam said:
so good = advancement of culture

so what does advancement of culture mean? is it greater knowledge? increase in GDP? increase in living standard?




Morality and ethics came about because of a need of advancement. Whether or not advancement is good or not is in the eye of the beholder.

Consider where we were at when living in caves and hunting as compared to now. That is advancement of the human race. Without some sort of understood morals and ethics, we wouldn't have gotten this far. If order is going to advance, order must be maintained. That is how morals and ethics came about.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinecontam
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Re: basis for morality? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2070109 - 11/04/03 02:38 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Progress built on colonialism, slavery and the inherent racism that goes with it would be in your scheme a positive good. Good without any value judgement placed upon it of course because there would be no right or wrong.

I don't believe that all ethics can be explained in terms of a need for the regulation of society in order for it to function well. What about those ethical systems that aim at utility for the individual, eudemonia etc. ?


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: basis for morality? [Re: contam]
    #2070308 - 11/04/03 06:37 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

you can look at it from many different perspectives...the chinese philosophers of the warring states period focused on this quite a bit.

Mozi - thought that external doctrine should be the source of our morals/ethics...he doesnt care what you think or feel, only if the action increases
1)wealth
2)order of the state
3)population

There are your ethics for him.

Otherwise you had thinkers like Zhuangzi (my favorite), saying that humans are born good but flawed, because it is our essence to make distinctions of right/wrong, and take pride in them, which narrows our view of the world (one of the two supposed Daoist thinkers)

so it really boils down, in my optinion, to ones own concept of moral action.  Morality can take on quite a number of definitions depending on ones goals.

Im not so sure how they came about, probably out of fear of one another (but then again i tend to be quite a cynical thinker).  Not that i think that everyone would run around killing eachother, but the fact that greed will pervade any level of civilization.

Hard topic to pinpoint :smile:

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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OfflineRandolph_Carter
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Re: basis for morality? [Re: contam]
    #2071023 - 11/04/03 09:52 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Well, the basis for my code of ethics is pretty well a way to control myself in a manner that prevents me from doing damage to myself or other important people/institutions in my life. It was never forced on me, but as i grew more aware of my surroundings, i saw that some of my natural and inborn behaviours were causing negative effects on my life, and in order to phase them out, the pride of self-discipline in enforcing a code of ethics to prevent these actions slowly replaces the desire to commit the said act. Ain't got shit to do with society, at least not in reference to my core ethic. Granted, the fear of getting caught for some of my more vile impulses is decent dissuasion, but without my ethics to back it up, it would be a paper tiger. So, in short, i believe ethics and morality came about as a way for man to control himself and raise himself above the level he once was, both in a single lifetime and, if he is a decent teacher, for future generations.

As far as an independant, objective existance, riiiiiight. They may have value in both personal and societal settings, but as stand-alone concepts, no way in hell. They in no way exist in a species that is not aware of self, and seem only to exist as a way to better onself from the base to which he was born. Evolution of conciousness, maybe, but apparently only helpful tools towards that end.

Just my opinion..Stay Frosty.
R.C.


--------------------
"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


Nuke baby seals for Jesus!

(This has been a +1 production.)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: basis for morality? [Re: contam]
    #2071410 - 11/04/03 11:31 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

contam asks:

What is the basis for ethics/morality?
Did it just come about as a necessity of living together in communities?


Yes it did. For a single human living in the middle of nowhere with no contact with other humans, morality is a null concept. It is only in groups that ethical rules governing interaction between humans become necessary. No interaction, no need for morals.

Do our ideas of "justice" and "virtue" have real independent objective existence or are they just the creation and fantasy of humanity?

Since by definition ethics/morals deal with interaction between humans, they are a human construct. Nonetheless, there is such a thing as objective morality.

Is there some principle behind morality or is it just all subjective and relative to some human utility?

The fundamental principle is the "do no harm" principle -- the initiation of physical force in interactions between humans is forbidden. The reason for this is that physical force negates free will, and without free will, humans cannot survive. Any code of ethics which doesn't have this fundamental principle at its base is one which is anti-life (at least anti-human-life).

pinky


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Offlinecontam
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Re: basis for morality? [Re: Phred]
    #2080937 - 11/07/03 02:20 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

pinksharkmark - "Since by definition ethics/morals deal with interaction between humans, they are a human construct. Nonetheless, there is such a thing as objective morality."


I presume you would believe that this "objective morality" must be grounded in the divine somehow?

If not then I would be interested in your argument as to how you can have "real" morality.

I am surprised there are no religious people around here defending ethical objectivism. What's wrong with the old being/privation of being argument? works fairly well I think.


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OfflinePed
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Re: basis for morality? [Re: contam]
    #2080963 - 11/07/03 02:32 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Culture is rhetoric, and rhetoric is not honesty. Culture is to be discarded.


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