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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 8 years, 30 days
Re: Reality and Truth [Re: Frog]
    #2560662 - 04/14/04 07:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I think you missed my point. Im not saying subjective truth is invalid, indeed it may be the only truth. Nor am i saying that objective truth does or does not exist. I was simply pointing out that the existance of objective truth is open to debate, and the resolution of that debate would have profound implications. Also if objective truth does exist, then one implication of that MIGHT be that subjective truth really isnt truth at all, and is in fact invalid, unless it happens to agree with the objective truth. If the objective truth is water is wet, yet some crazy person says NO! ITS VERY VERY DRY!!! then wouldnt that make the crazy person just flat out wrong? or can subjective truth and objective truth live togheter even if they are at odds with each other? but if there is objective truth and the subjective truth doesnt agree with it, wouldnt it be more accurate to just call it an opinion rather then a truth?


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OfflineEuphoricBlue
Trance DepthExplorer

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 73
Loc: Fresno, California
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
Re: Reality and Truth [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2560781 - 04/14/04 08:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)



Light + Love = Truth & REALity.... then we evolve more rapid realize the truth that we are all one and then we become multidimentional with Gaia. blah blah blah...

Chad


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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2561739 - 04/15/04 01:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ZenGecko said:
I think you missed my point. Im not saying subjective truth is invalid, indeed it may be the only truth. Nor am i saying that objective truth does or does not exist. I was simply pointing out that the existance of objective truth is open to debate, and the resolution of that debate would have profound implications. Also if objective truth does exist, then one implication of that MIGHT be that subjective truth really isnt truth at all, and is in fact invalid, unless it happens to agree with the objective truth. If the objective truth is water is wet, yet some crazy person says NO! ITS VERY VERY DRY!!! then wouldnt that make the crazy person just flat out wrong? or can subjective truth and objective truth live togheter even if they are at odds with each other? but if there is objective truth and the subjective truth doesnt agree with it, wouldnt it be more accurate to just call it an opinion rather then a truth?




Okay, let's see if I get it right this time.

Well, first, I need to know what types of subjective truths you are talking about. Are you talking about, for example, when someone says "Synchronicity exists", that that is a subjective truth that has no objectively-based counterpart, and therefore cannot exist?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisible2Experimental
Male User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 18,073
Re: Reality and Truth [Re: Frog]
    #2561826 - 04/15/04 02:02 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

ZenGecko:
"I was simply pointing out that the existance of objective truth is open to debate, and the resolution of that debate would have profound implications"

How would the resolution of that debate ever have profound implications if the resolution could not be came to in the first place because of subjective realities?


Frog:
"Are you talking about, for example, when someone says "Synchronicity exists", that that is a subjective truth that has no objectively-based counterpart, and therefore cannot exist? "

I really wish people considered personal experience as 'objective' .. I do at least, if the experience happens in a clear minded state.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2561855 - 04/15/04 02:13 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well, to give skeptics their due, if I have a personal experience that is not able to be measured in any scientific format, I can see why they would consider it subjective, not objective.

However, that is why I posted, I think on another thread, that there are other people with whom I work that have witnessed my subjective experiences. Still, though, that's not objective. No scientific measurement available to give it credence.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineMollyDolly
Queen Rabbit

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 497
Loc: N.C., USA
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
Re: Reality and Truth [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2562285 - 04/15/04 05:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

WE ARE DREAMING! NOTHING IS REAL! AHHHHH! *slaps self* sorry i do that sometime =^_^=


--------------------
~~~~~*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*~~~~~


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Reality and Truth [Re: Frog]
    #2562297 - 04/15/04 05:12 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

that there are other people with whom I work that have witnessed my subjective experiences. Still, though, that's not objective.




That will be dismissed (ala' city-wide UFO sightings) by skeptics as a "mass hallucination".
A very scientific explanation mind you.  :rolleyes:


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 8 years, 30 days
Re: Reality and Truth [Re: Jellric]
    #2562398 - 04/15/04 06:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Ok let me put it more simply. All im saying is that we cant at the moment, and likely ever agree that there is objective truth, others would argue that there is only objective truth, and subjective truth is an illusion. Im not saying that either do or do not exist, im just saying that if we could some how know, really know for sure that it would help settle alot of questions.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Reality and Truth [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2564391 - 04/15/04 05:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Objective truth: The Eiffel tower is X feet high and was built in Paris in 18XX, whatever.


Subjective truth:

Visitor #1: I proposed to my fiance there and she accepted. That was the most beautiful night of my life. Whenever I see that magnificent tower I can feel her love.

Visitor #2: My wife died in the 9/11 WTC bombing. Whenever I see that hideous spire, I think how the cowardly French refused to aid us in our time of need.

Are the subjective truths "real"? Only to the subject. This does not deny the experience, only the conclusion (100th time I have said this). The tower is neither ugly nor beautiful, but the experiencer may feel very strongly one way or another. This is called projection. Is there a scientific test for magnificence? No. The problem occurs when the subject tries to convince others of his limited and erroneous conclusion.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 6,220
Loc: : Gringo
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: Reality and Truth [Re: Swami]
    #2564707 - 04/15/04 06:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Objective truth: The Eiffel tower is X feet high and was built in Paris in 18XX, whatever.




Because of erosion, material elasticity, and ground settling, the Eiffel tower will register different heights when measured over time. Your "objective truth" is subjective to the time of measurement.

Since the entire world does not use the Roman Calender, different cultures would not concede that the Eiffel tower was built in the 1800's. Your "objective truth" is subjective to the culture dating it.

Everything is subjective. What I anticipate from you:

1. No answer
or
2. Emotionally appealing counterpoint along the lines of "If I hit you in the head..."


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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Invisible2Experimental
Male User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 18,073
Re: Reality and Truth [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2564892 - 04/15/04 06:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"Because of erosion, material elasticity, and ground settling, the Eiffel tower will register different heights when measured over time. Your "objective truth" is subjective to the time of measurement."

Exactly , this just goes to show that science is not really as objective as its followers would like to admit.....

So what if skeptic theory stands up to the " Scientific book of all that is right and will never change, Volume 101"....that does not mean anything

Quote from, Swami
"Are the subjective truths "real"? Only to the subject."

What about if we made subject plural, now what? I think if experiences are shared by the masses, then subjective becomes objective by reason of number... Do not give me the argument of numbers aregument because it is pointless. I could say the same about how science thinks evolution is objective, when in reality it is not proven, yet the masses accept it as 'real' somehow, but deny thinks like spiritual masses experience as still only subjective. I know there is a fine line in there, but a line exists none the less..............


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Reality and Truth [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2565054 - 04/15/04 07:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Because of erosion, material elasticity, and ground settling, the Eiffel tower will register different heights when measured over time.

Hence why I used the variable "X" instead of an exact metric. Changability over time does not negate objective reality. No one claims that matter is static.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
Divine Hermit of the Everything
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Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 7,575
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2565909 - 04/15/04 11:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

>I could say the same about how science thinks evolution is objective, when in reality it is not proven
-Evolution has been proven in a labratory setting. Evolution is fact, not theory. Evolution by Natural Selection what is theory. I assume that Natural Selection is the driving force of evolution in nature... but so far it's only theory.


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Invisible2Experimental
Male User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 18,073
Re: Reality and Truth [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2566136 - 04/16/04 12:42 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"Evolution has been proven in a labratory setting. Evolution is fact, not theory."

Wtf? Nah I do not think it has been proven in a lab that humans evolved from apes. I think it is highly possible by looking at the evidence, but the truth is, science does not know the origin of mankind for sure.


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Reality and Truth [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2566145 - 04/16/04 12:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

think of a tree.


--------------------
What?


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Invisible2Experimental
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Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 18,073
Re: Reality and Truth [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2566158 - 04/16/04 12:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"think of a tree"


I can not see the allusion you are refering too by saying this. Can you please clarify what your statment meant and how it had bearings on either side of the debate?


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OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 6,220
Loc: : Gringo
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: Reality and Truth [Re: Swami]
    #2566183 - 04/16/04 12:59 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Hence why I used the variable "X" instead of an exact metric. Changability over time does not negate objective reality. No one claims that matter is static.




Let's pay attention to the language we've all come to agree on. Using variables for objective quantities...

Objective is to static
as
Subjective is to dynamic

Variable is to dynamic
as
Constant is to static

There fore

Variable is to subjective
as
Constant is to objective


As said right after my post, things aren't as concrete as they seem.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
addict
Registered: 09/13/02
Posts: 573
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Reality and Truth [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2566190 - 04/16/04 01:01 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

evolution has been proved in a labratory setting. try it yourself. cath a couple dozen fruit flys and put em in a jar with food. In a few weeks the species in your jar will be distinct from any other species of fruit fly.

ah... wont bother getting into the evolution debate deeper than that right now...


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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
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Re: Reality and Truth [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2566192 - 04/16/04 01:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

After one glass of champagne, just ONE, mind you, I have absolutely no f'ing clue what you guys are talking about.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 6,220
Loc: : Gringo
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: Reality and Truth [Re: Frog]
    #2566194 - 04/16/04 01:04 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

That's why you need to drink four or five.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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