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InvisibleLallafa
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reality created by consciousness
    #553363 - 02/16/02 07:44 AM (15 years, 13 days ago)

http://www.crystalinks.com/holographic.html

i dunno if this has been posted before
if you havent seen it please check it out
i remeber hearing about Alain Aspects experiments over 4 years ago and not being able to believe it

molecular connections, cool beans


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


Edited by Lallafa (02/19/02 01:38 AM)


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OfflineBigYetti
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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: Lallafa]
    #553368 - 02/16/02 08:20 AM (15 years, 13 days ago)

Yes I read this recently, isn't it excellent!!!


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[blue]*******************************************[/blue]
Control your own mind.
[purple] Seek an experiential clarity..... [/purple]
www.StarsEdge.com
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InvisiblePynchon
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Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: Lallafa]
    #553376 - 02/16/02 08:48 AM (15 years, 13 days ago)

It's an ingeneous idea, but that article is pretty self-contradictory. In a holographic universe, free will couldn't exist...yet the article implies that we can somehow choose to manipulate what we percieve as objective reality. If the universe is holographic, we're still doomed to be "trapped" in it because we're part of it, so it doesn't really advance the whole "subjective vs. objective reality" debate...

It's more of an interesting thought experiment than a genuine scientific theory, IMHO.


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OfflineBigYetti
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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: Pynchon]
    #553381 - 02/16/02 09:02 AM (15 years, 13 days ago)

Good point Pynchon, but your statement about;

"If the universe is holographic, we're still doomed to be "trapped" in it because we're part of it, so it doesn't really advance the whole "subjective vs. objective reality" debate."

Lets look at it another way; Lets say for discussion that we can't determine the outer boundaries of the holographic creation called the universe. Lets for an experiment we label the hologram as 'consciousness'. Whats to say there isn't a deeper level that permeates all the holographic layer. Lets label that layer as 'undefined awareness' and lets say that undefined awareness is more basic than consciousness and that creations in consciousness are created from undefined awareness. What if that deeper layer of undefined awareness is the true source of 'I'. We can't hold the author of that article to provide us with the solution to understanding the universe. But I think it is a step in a very plausable direction.

"I think I am, therfore I am, I think" - The Moody Blues


--------------------
[blue]*******************************************[/blue]
Control your own mind.
[purple] Seek an experiential clarity..... [/purple]
www.StarsEdge.com
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OfflineMyceliumcake
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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: BigYetti]
    #553385 - 02/16/02 09:13 AM (15 years, 13 days ago)

If an insect cannot reason, and a cat cannot plan ahead, what is it that we cannot do?


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InvisiblePynchon
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Registered: 04/28/01
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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: BigYetti]
    #553392 - 02/16/02 09:36 AM (15 years, 13 days ago)

You're trying to confuse me, aintcha? :wink:

>Lets say for discussion that we can't determine the outer boundaries of the holographic creation called the universe.

Not sure if I understand this bit...I'm assuming you mean in a meta-physical sense?

>...creations in consciousness are created from undefined awareness.

But if past, present and future all exist simultaneously, nothing can ever truly be created, regardless of the mechanism. Even the holographic universe theory itself must include it's own "discovery" within itself -- if it's an accurate theory. Catch 22?

>What if that deeper layer of undefined awareness is the true source of "I"

Then it wouldn't be undefined...actually, the concept of undefined awareness sounds suspiciously like a deity to me...is that what you were getting at?

>But I think its a step in a very plausable direction.

No argument...but it also seems to be unverifiable one way or the other, which is what makes me think of it more as a thought experiment than a scientific theory. 

I'm half-asleep right now, so apologies if this makes no sense or if I missed your point completely... 


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OfflineBigYetti
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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: Myceliumcake]
    #553396 - 02/16/02 10:10 AM (15 years, 13 days ago)

Seems to me as long as one doesn't violate the limits of an existing creation (physical universe for one example), one can do anything as long as one posses the appropriate skills, and skills can be developed. The other option would of course be to either remove the limiting creation or create from outside of it. I.E. If you try to fly throught the air by willing it, you can't because of a very real existing creation called gravity that effects physical stuff. However, if you design a physical creation that overcomes gravity and operates within the limits of the existing creation of gravity (lets call it an airplane - hehe)!!

Outside the physical universe (in consciousness) it seems you can create any thought form (creation) you want as long as it fits within the structure of your consciousness (your personal universe).

But to your question, "what is it that we cannot do? ". My best answer is that we are not static beings. We change (even though it doesn't seem so at times), we evolve, humanity evolves, consciousness evolves. So I have a tendency / desire to rephrase the question to "What is it that we cannot do at this stage of our evolution in consciousness?". The answer to that is probabally not a limited as many think but from my experience it seems that there are certain limitations. However, as the months and years go by, I find that I can do more (have more control of my life and consciousness) then I could have ever imagined in my early years. I am no longer a complete victim, I have returned to being at source over my own universe of self. The things in my life are my creations and at some level I am responsible for them and the consequences of creating them. The path even to this point has been undescribable in mere words. Since I could not predict this outcome a few decades age, I must say I will not even attempt to put a limit on the future of either myself or of humanity. Because what we decide to believe creates a filter for limiting or unlimiting our potential for other creations (and yes at the core it is just a decision to believe or not to believe something / anything, even if its delusional). So I have to say that from where I choose to view this from, there is nothing we as humans can't do as long as the proper skill is developed and we observe the limits of existing creations.

"The easiest way to change something is to change your viewpoint" - Harry Palmer

"A limit can be either a frontier or a boundry" - Harry Palmer

I'm curious what your answer is to your question.... Do tell....




--------------------
[blue]*******************************************[/blue]
Control your own mind.
[purple] Seek an experiential clarity..... [/purple]
www.StarsEdge.com
[blue]*******************************************[/blue]


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OfflineBigYetti
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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: Pynchon]
    #553414 - 02/16/02 10:53 AM (15 years, 13 days ago)

Pynchon,
Actually I'm not trying to confuse you at all, sorry for the confusion. These are points from my own experience, but I am not the ultimate source of truths for you. I am only the ultimate source of truths for me. Take them if they help, disregard if they don't...

To attempt to clarify further I have to say that we are using our minds to try and analyze things outside of our minds. In my experience one must find tools to allow one to get beyond the confines and confusion of the mind. And yes this really is not only possible but quite doable (try the Avatar course, it worked for me). From there, things are much clearer and less confusing. From there you can use the mind as a tool instead of being trapped by it. May be it sounds strange but it is the doing of life rather than the talking about it. Take action, seek the truths for yourself. Seek an experiential clarity...

The outer limits of the creation of a holographic universe are definately outside my own minds ability to determine. I am guessing its outside of the ability of any minds ability. There must be something outside of that (says my mind). My experience of undefined awareness using the tools proves to me that we beings exist outside of the ideas we have of ourselves (its all quite 'twilight zone' really).

If I look at the peak of a mountain, what I imagine it to be like at the top is quite unverifiable to me from where I stand at the bottom. Better to climb the mountain and experience it for myself then to only listen to others descriptions of the peak experience (no pun intended).

"Wisdom is the cumulative result of enduring many vulnerable moments of not knowing" - Harry Palmer

"Wisdom is like stiff clay; you have to work with it with your own hands before it becomes useful" - Harry Palmer


--------------------
[blue]*******************************************[/blue]
Control your own mind.
[purple] Seek an experiential clarity..... [/purple]
www.StarsEdge.com
[blue]*******************************************[/blue]


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OfflineDivine_Madness
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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: Pynchon]
    #553419 - 02/16/02 10:58 AM (15 years, 13 days ago)

I dont understand why free will couldnt excist in a holographic universe.
A holo, if I understand correctly, consists of two laser projecting to eachother wich creates the holo. If one is bigger then the other, youll never get a complete picture, so if you move the small one, the picture will change.
If the collective consiousness (consiousness of everything that is and is not) is the big laser, and individual counsiousness the small one, the "reality" will be transforming once you move an individual consiousness, for this individual.
The collective consiousness holds everything, every state you can and can not imagine. So the state in which you are now, is just one of the many. A fragmented reality.
And maybe the individual consiousness has the possebility to reduce and expand.


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its all placebo


Edited by Divine_Madness (02/16/02 11:04 AM)


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OfflineBigYetti
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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: Divine_Madness]
    #553458 - 02/16/02 12:32 PM (15 years, 13 days ago)

Excellent DM,
Also play with it from another angle. What if the big laser was 'undefined awareness', like a pool of awareness potential waiting to 'exist as' something. What if collective and individual 'beliefs' formed the lens that the laser projected through. What if by changing (really changing not just pretending to change) your beliefs, you could change your experience of reality. And just how far can you take it by changing beliefs?


--------------------
[blue]*******************************************[/blue]
Control your own mind.
[purple] Seek an experiential clarity..... [/purple]
www.StarsEdge.com
[blue]*******************************************[/blue]


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OfflineTimeleech
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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: Pynchon]
    #553732 - 02/16/02 06:13 PM (15 years, 13 days ago)

You must keep this in mind pynchon:
The universe IS not a hologram.
But:
The model of a holographic universe seems to fit observations of it close enough to be an apropriate analogy.

Doubtlessly, the universe-hologram is quite more complex than the holograms we know. The model is a simplification. The menu is not the meal etc. Likewise, if we compare the universe to a hologram, it does not mean that it is a 1:1 relationship. The universe may exhibit an extraordinary likeness to a hologram, but might just as well trancend it in ways that are hidden from us as of yet.

Any model is doomed to be missing in certain aspect, lest it was as complete as the universe itself, and therefore WAS indeed the universe itself, in it's entirety.

The best way of explainging a painting is to show somebody the painting, if you describe it with words you will never be able to aproach the whole truth of the painting.



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--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org


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InvisiblePynchon
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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: Divine_Madness]
    #554201 - 02/17/02 06:10 AM (15 years, 12 days ago)

>I don't undertsand why free will couldnt exist in a holographic universe.

Because, as the article itself states, "seperateness is an illusion". This would apply to moments in time as much as it applies to subatomic particles seperated by space. The entire history of the universe is contained within it, "a cosmic storehouse of 'all that is'" (lifted from the article). Conciousness -- and our experience of free will along with it -- are a part of the hologram.

There's nothing new about this, btw. For most of it's history, science has held that the universe is deterministic. This paradigm was abandoned after the discovery of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and advent of quantum mechanics.

As Timeleech has already pointed out, we should be careful not to take the analogy of the hologram too literally. What it really means is that the whole is contained within the apparently individual parts, the same way a hologram can be divided and still contain the entire image when illuminated by a laser.


Edited by Pynchon (02/17/02 06:13 AM)


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: Lallafa]
    #554267 - 02/17/02 09:27 AM (15 years, 12 days ago)

It says that it doesn't matter what part of a rat's brain you remove, it still remembers. But we know that this doesn't apply to humans....we know that people with alzheimers etc experience memory loss. Someone want to enlighten me? I know i've probably missed the point completely.


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OfflineDivine_Madness
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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: Revelation]
    #554287 - 02/17/02 10:06 AM (15 years, 12 days ago)

I once saw a documentary about someone who had one half of its brain removed for some reason, but he could still function pretty normal (the doctors didnt understand how)...


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its all placebo


Edited by Divine_Madness (02/17/02 10:06 AM)


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: Revelation]
    #554404 - 02/17/02 02:09 PM (15 years, 12 days ago)

Alzheimer's disease is different. It is a neurodegenerative disease, causing neuronal dysfunction and death in many regions of the brain. And since neuroscientists believe that memories are simply patterns of activation in the brain, if activation is reduced by neuron dysfunction then memories cannot be recalled. This is different if a specific region of the brain was removed, because others parts of the brain could "pick up the slack."

I think this makes sense.


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OfflineBigYetti
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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: Divine_Madness]
    #554651 - 02/17/02 07:02 PM (15 years, 11 days ago)

What if the physical brain doesn't really do everything science gives it credit for. What if those things / functions come from somewhere else (our consciousness for example)? What if certain dis-ease actually started in consciousness rather that the physical brain and the damage observed in the physical brain was only a sympton / result of other phemomena?

I don't know if any of its real, just another possible viewpoint on it.


--------------------
[blue]*******************************************[/blue]
Control your own mind.
[purple] Seek an experiential clarity..... [/purple]
www.StarsEdge.com
[blue]*******************************************[/blue]


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: BigYetti]
    #554699 - 02/17/02 08:32 PM (15 years, 11 days ago)

i think that's probably true.

I always thought that our bodies are just the physical manifestation of our conciussness. I read somewhere that especially cancer starts in the mind of the individual, people who want a way out or are very depressed. Science is beginning to recognize the effects of thought on the physical body. I read recently that they did an experiment where they got people to *imagine* bending their little finger like three times a day for 10 minutes (or something) and at the end of the experiment there was a 30% growth in muscle in the little finger.

(i know this doesn't really have anything to do with the conscioussness vs physical brain thing but what the hell)



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Invisibletak
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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: Revelation]
    #554869 - 02/18/02 12:43 AM (15 years, 11 days ago)

If we have free will, or if we dont..how the fuck would we know. Whatever happens happens. Why the fuck are we relating the universe to hoolograms. I would like to read it but i dont understand everything, nor have the patients. I think the answer is much more simple withouthaving to compare to modern science :smile: 


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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OfflineDivine_Madness
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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: Pynchon]
    #555068 - 02/18/02 06:35 AM (15 years, 11 days ago)

Because, as the article itself states, "seperateness is an illusion". This would apply to moments in time as much as it applies to subatomic particles seperated by space. The entire history of the universe is contained within it, "a cosmic storehouse of 'all that is'" (lifted from the article). Conciousness -- and our experience of free will along with it -- are a part of the hologram.

What if consiousness holds the storehouse, and deseases and stuff are being created by the misunderstanding of how to use it. Could it be that we decide for ourselfes what we want to project. That we decide what picture we want to see, out of the collection in our consiousness. And that we could also expand our collection.


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its all placebo


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InvisiblePynchon
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Re: reality questions, god, PLEASE check this out [Re: Divine_Madness]
    #555083 - 02/18/02 07:39 AM (15 years, 11 days ago)

>What if consiousness holds the storehouse, and deseases and stuff are being created by the misunderstanding of how to use it

If consciousness is seperate from everything else, how could it cause disease? How could it cause (or use) anything at all?


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