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Offlinemanna_man
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What IS reality?
    #2027044 - 10/20/03 11:33 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

How bout we have a little contest of wits here at S&P?
What does reality consist of in your opinion? There are basically 3 philosopical perspectives on reality:

1) Dualism : reality consists of mind and matter(bodies).
2) Materialism : reality consists of only matter.
3) Idealism : reality consists of only mind.

Let's hear your opinions. If you can provide an irrefutable argument for any of the above listed views, or perhaps one of your own, 5 shrooms.



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This post is protected under copyrite law.All above content is strictly the property of ?manna_man.Any infringement of copyright property is strictly prohibited.Any violators will be stretched, shot, and then vaporized into a state of anti-matter, where they will cease to exist.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: manna_man]
    #2027056 - 10/20/03 11:37 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Truth: reality cannot be fully expressed through language.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2027085 - 10/20/03 11:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

reality is this life you are living, that's it, no more questions.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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Offlinemanna_man
High onlife.....andcrack

Registered: 06/10/03
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: TODAY]
    #2027107 - 10/20/03 11:56 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Notice that the question is not "what is reality" (even though that's what I titled this thread, sorry :crazy:), but more "what does reality CONSIST of?" What is ultimately real? Do you believe it is dualistic, materialistic, or idealistic?


--------------------
This post is protected under copyrite law.All above content is strictly the property of ?manna_man.Any infringement of copyright property is strictly prohibited.Any violators will be stretched, shot, and then vaporized into a state of anti-matter, where they will cease to exist.


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: manna_man]
    #2027248 - 10/21/03 12:54 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

OH, wow, that's a thinker, HOLY CRAP THAT IS A THINKER!! lol, i took the easy way out on this one.

well, if matter exists and mind doesn't exist to observe it then i can't say that reality exists. it is like the tree falling in the woods. does it make a sound? if the sound isn't percieved i guess it is still a sound, but what is the point of sound if a mind or living being can't percieve it? maybe it does exist, but the mind is the key element in processing it.

if the universe consisted of matter before consciousness was created then i guess it was still there but can we call it reality if there is no way of percieving it?

i think reality may be reserved only for situations when a mind can percieve it. reality exists in each individual mind and i don't think we can call the existence of matter a reality if there is no mind to recognize it. huh, maybe that is a good answer, i don't know.

good question...we need a real thinker to get at this one...but there really may be no answer.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: manna_man]
    #2027283 - 10/21/03 01:05 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I will go most with Dualism as the closest match. I think physical matter does exist, but not exactly as we see it. Much of what we consider "reality" is "added" after or during sensory input by the human brain (a filtering tool).

Color, for instance, is not something that exists in an object, only in our perception of the object.

Yet color is a "real", tangible part of our everyday "reality".

I think this alone disproves the Materialistic view.

However I cannot prove definatively either Dualism or Idealism. Everything may exist only in thought, though I find this highly unlikely and the idea doesn't sit well with my intuition. Dualism seems most likely to me, intuitively.

It may be that physical reality doesen't exist without conscious thought...but that doesn't mean that physical objects aren't "real".

What I'm getting at: I think that physical-reality does exist even without conscious thought (or perhaps just without higher conscious thought) but that consciousness in itself has it's own massless form and what we humans perceive is an interpretation of physical reality made by our consciousness through the physical measuring instrument of our brain/body.

How's that?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisibleeric_the_red
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: manna_man]
    #2027436 - 10/21/03 02:05 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

reality is exactly what you think it is.


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Anno cock? is that some kind of Greek liqueur? -Geo's All Knowing Sex Slave


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Anonymous

Re: What IS reality? [Re: eric_the_red]
    #2027530 - 10/21/03 02:44 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"Matter is the Vehicle for the manifestation of Soul on this plane of existence, and the Soul is the Vehicle on a higher plane for the manifestation of Spirit, and these three are the Trinity synthesized by Life, which pervades them all."


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Offlinepattern
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: eric_the_red]
    #2027882 - 10/21/03 06:09 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

This is reality!

Right here, everything.  :sun:


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: manna_man]
    #2027905 - 10/21/03 06:34 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Materialism.

There is no mind independent of the body nor body independent of the mind; there is only an integrated organism. Thoughts, ideas and other non-physical things are merely movements of physical matter or chemical reactions. There is no reality beyond the physical.


Edited by Annom (10/21/03 07:02 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: TODAY]
    #2027926 - 10/21/03 06:53 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TODAY said:
well, if matter exists and mind doesn't exist to observe it then i can't say that reality exists. it is like the tree falling in the woods. does it make a sound? if the sound isn't percieved i guess it is still a sound, but what is the point of sound if a mind or living being can't percieve it? maybe it does exist, but the mind is the key element in processing it.





This much I know is just ignorance. If we aren't there to observe it, then it doesn't exist. I really can't agree with that. It is sort of egotistical, to think that if we don't observe something, then it doesn't exist... germs and viruses have always existed with us, but because we couldn't observe them back in the day, only their effects on us, it didn't mean that they didn't exist... I also think it is egotistical of us to think that the Universe is for us, that if we are not capable of observing something, then what the hell is the point of it existing...

I believe in a physical reality. But I believe that there is no correct way to observe reality. Our way of seeing the physical world and of hearing the physical world and our relative sense of like say temperature is not the only way, nor is it the correct way.

There are many dimensions consisting in the same space. We are only capable of experiencing the material world and the effects that other fields have on this field.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblebuckwheat
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Registered: 12/09/02
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2027931 - 10/21/03 07:02 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

reality is not reality


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: trendal]
    #2027932 - 10/21/03 07:03 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> if the sound isn't percieved i guess it is still a sound, but what is the point of sound if a mind or living being can't percieve it? maybe it does exist, but the mind is the key element in processing it.

The physical brain is the key element in processing it. A non-physical mind is not needed to hear a sound. Hearing a sound is 100% physical.

> if the universe consisted of matter before consciousness was created then i guess it was still there but can we call it reality if there is no way of percieving it?

Consciousness is an amazing physical thing, but nothing non-physical, consciousness = merely movements of physical matter or chemical reactions.

> Color, for instance, is not something that exists in an object, only in our perception of the object.
Yet color is a "real", tangible part of our everyday "reality".
I think this alone disproves the Materialistic view.

Wrong, It does not disprove the materialistic view. Color does exist in an object. It's all basic science and has nothing to do with a non-physical mind. Color does exist in our physical world. What we humans perceive as color is actually light waves that hit our eyes, translated into nerve impulses, and interpreted by our brains as all the various colors around us. Visible light is electromagnetic waves. Colors are distinguished from each other by their frequency.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: Annom]
    #2027939 - 10/21/03 07:10 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Annom said:
Consciousness is an amazing physical thing, but nothing non-physical, consciousness = merely movements of physical matter or chemical reactions.




Consciousness does not exist in the physical realm, I think. It may end up "giving power" to intelligent beings in the physical realm, but it still exists in a different plane of existance...

Quote:


Color does exist in an object. It's all basic science and has nothing to do with a non-physical mind. Color does exist in our physical world. What we humans perceive as color is actually light waves that hit our eyes, translated into nerve impulses, and interpreted by our brains as all the various colors around us. Visible light is electromagnetic waves. Colors are distinguished from each other by their frequency.




They are distingushed from each other by our mind, due to their frequency. One frequency that equates into blue in our mind doesn't mean that colour exists outside of the mind. The different frequencies exist, but no colour. It is us that makes one frequency appear as this colour and this frequency as that colour. Color-blindness proves this. I know people that sincerely see green as brown....

Let's take the symbols that form the word "buzz". What does buzz mean to you? Whatever meaning that buzz has to us does not exist within the word itself. It exists in our mind. Someone who can't read would see that and only see lines.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinethe universe
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: Annom]
    #2027949 - 10/21/03 07:20 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Personally I think that we'll never know exactly what reality "is". Materials and ideas are both the same thing in my opinion.
I guess if I had to put down a set explanation I'ld just say that reality is made up of relationships. Nothing is the thing in itself. A thing is made up of the sum of the affects it has on it's surroundings. That's why reality is different for everyone. Based on how everything has affected you, (genetics, people, food, rocks, etc.) you are now what you are. Based on how you now affect things in this moment, that is the extent of what you are. Of course reality changes moment to moment, so everything and everyone are allways becoming something else. As far as the basic material that makes up reality, or what started the first relationships, I don't think that matters much.


--------------------
"If you had a million years to do it in, you couldn't rub out even half the 'Fuck you' signs in the world."- J. D. Salinger


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2027958 - 10/21/03 07:31 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

You are right from your perspective.

But I don't believe in a non-physical mind, soul, consciousness, or whatever. I believe that everything is physical, even our mind. If the definition of a mind is that it's non-physical(I call a non-physical mind a soul) then I don't believe in a mind(like I don't believe in a soul).

> They are distingushed from each other by our mind, due to their frequency.

From my perspective this means: They are distinguished from each other by our brains, due to their frequency. I believe that mind and brains are the same. Our mind is "created" in our brains, and therefor it's physical.

> It is us that makes one frequency appear as this colour and this frequency as that colour. Color-blindness proves this. I know people that sincerely see green as brown....

This can also be explained in a 100% physical world. The brain of a color-blindness isn't working "normal". I agree with the following you said, and I think color-blindness falls under another way of experiencing reality, and I still don't see a need for a non-physical mind to explain this difference in experiencing.

"I believe in a physical reality. But I believe that there is no correct way to observe reality. Our way of seeing the physical world and of hearing the physical world and our relative sense of like say temperature is not the only way, nor is it the correct way."



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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: Annom]
    #2027973 - 10/21/03 07:53 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Annom said:
From my perspective this means: They are distinguished from each other by our brains, due to their frequency. I believe that mind and brains are the same. Our mind is "created" in our brains, and therefor it's physical.




I am just pointing out that it is our mind that decides what visual effects come with what frequency.

Quote:


This can also be explained in a 100% physical world. The brain of a color-blindness isn't working "normal". I agree with the following you said, and I think color-blindness falls under another way of experiencing reality, and I still don't see a need for a non-physical mind to explain this difference in experiencing.





I wasn't using it as an example to explain a non-physical mind, I was using it as an example of what I just said above.

This all supports that I think our perception of reality is only that: our perception. I also think that our perception of reality isn't any more correct or right than any other perception of reality. I don't think that the way we observe things is in any way the one that reality is "suspossed" to be viewed with.

I see a difference between our mind and our brain. Our mind isn't created, I think, by our brain at all. A computer can run insanely complex processes and have no conscious mind. (of course, we really don't have a way of knowing that it doesn't... is a computer aware of what it is and what it does?)

I think that our consciousness results from a connection to something in a different plane of existance, coexisting in the same exact place as this one. I don't see how, as complex as our brains are, a consciousness can be created that can exist without any thought at all occuring. Do our thoughts sustain us, or do we sustain our thoughts?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2028027 - 10/21/03 09:31 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> I am just pointing out that it is our mind that decides what visual effects come with what frequency.

And by "our mind" you mean a non-physical mind/soul?

> I wasn't using it as an example to explain a non-physical mind, I was using it as an example of what I just said above.

Ok, you were saying that color only exists in our mind, while electromagnetic waves do exist outside our mind? And color is only a way how we notice electromagnetic waves? I agree with that. Same with hearing, smell, taste, and touch.

> A computer can run insanely complex processes and have no conscious mind. (of course, we really don't have a way of knowing that it doesn't... is a computer aware of what it is and what it does?)

A computer has no conscious mind, right now. But I believe that our brains are a sort of organic super computer and therefor I think that a computer can get a conscious mind. I just don't see a great difference between our brains and a super super computer; all electric or/and chemical reactions...

Do you think that a computer can ever get a conscious mind?

> I think that our consciousness results from a connection to something in a different plane of existance, coexisting in the same exact place as this one.

---> Dualism.

> I don't see how, as complex as our brains are, a consciousness can be created that can exist without any thought at all occuring. Do our thoughts sustain us, or do we sustain our thoughts?

Can you elaborate? I don't understand what you want to say...


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: Annom]
    #2028046 - 10/21/03 09:43 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I believe that we are not in true reality, we are dreaming all of this. When we die we "wake up" from this dream. Therefore idealism more closely resembles the so called "reality" which we are experiencing now.


--------------------
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: Annom]
    #2028218 - 10/21/03 11:38 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Annom said:
And by "our mind" you mean a non-physical mind/soul?




Well, I think there is a difference between our mind and our soul, now that I think of it. Our soul is what keeps us aware, conscious. Our soul doesn't exactly identify with the moment to moment stuff that we go through in our life. I will have to do some thinking before I can continue..

And I guess I don't know if a computer could become conscious or not.. we could develop some pretty high powered artificial intelligence that would act as if it was indeed conscious.. but I don't know if it would be or not.

This, of course, raises a question: is it the same thing with us. Maybe, I guess. I guess I will have to think on this some more (I got a new song I am working on, that is where my head is at the moment...)
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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