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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2020835 - 10/18/03 03:30 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"I understand what you are saying totally. I am just saying that since we have to live with the limitations we have, and we always at any moment can do anything we choose with our available options, than therefore we have free will."

so what you're saying then is there is a difference between freedom and free will



--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Posts: 24,855
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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2022249 - 10/19/03 07:33 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
>>> Empty threats my friend. You can think whatever you want.. What you really do in the end is another matter. <<<





Hey, I am not saying that I have any remote desire to jump out that window right over there. However, it doesn't take much to jump out a window. I mean, you open it, you like sit on the ledge, and then you jump off.

I mean, it isn't something easy for us to do, of course, because we have all of these thoughts that make us think about it, realize what is really going to happen, and all that...

But it isn't really that hard to do. The option is ALWAYS there.

Free will might not exist from the outside of a given system, like we have know way of knowing whether or not another person truly has free will, but to us, we know that we are completely free to think any thought and to perform any action that is actually accomplishable by us.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinelucid
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Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2022575 - 10/19/03 12:12 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"There are more things in heaven and earth,
Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy"

The REAL Big question is what kind of underwear
(if any :oogle: ) she's wearing under that dress :grin: 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2022769 - 10/19/03 01:55 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"But it isn't really that hard to do. The option is ALWAYS there."
-------------------


Tell that to someone who has been destined to experience lamentation.. Like, say, an addict... A cigarette smoker. The option IS always there.. and that is especially easy to say for someone who may not smoke... But to the smoker who wants to quit and dosen't.. THere is little or no freedom.





So consider this.. You see a movie for the first time. As the story unfolds, it can take any number of countless twists and turns. You don't know what will happen next. You try to theorize an end, but alot of the time, the resulting story is much more different than you had expected.

Sure, the character climbing the side of the building could have fallen, gotten shot, hit by a helicopter or lightning.. Anything is possible.. But the outcome for the character is fixed. It is "seemingly variable" only to the observer.



And since you are the observer of yourself, the illusion of variability blends in to form the illusion of free will.

Your body takes your mind on a ride.. Your mind analyses the ride all the time. You are left with inner talk upon a journey that you cannot change the course of at this moment.





Why do you suppose that everyone is crying for some sort of change in the way things are, but nothing is really changing?

It is not yet the moment to change course.

The destination, as it is seen presently, is that way on purpose. Complete freedom would mean that it could all be changed for the better in record time... That is what everyone wants... Isn't it?

Why is it not changing ? ... I mean the average... To yield in an average improvement in the world? Dosen't it seem that it is going the other way?


You feel that you are strong willed... But you cannot make it change...

Where is your choice now?




The right conditions will come one day..

They are not here yet....

You will have your chance some day.


That decision you make, as a whole, will select the final outcome... And then freedom will be / or not be available.


Choose wisely... For the day that your choice will count will not be so apparent to you.








Treat others as you would want to be treated... and you will be safe.





--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2022823 - 10/19/03 02:19 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with you, man, but there is a difference between treating our life as a movie that has a fixed outcome and free will.

The fixed ending thing is always going to happen because it is a result of our choices right now. The guy in the movie COULD have fallen, but he also could have at any time decided to let go and fall.

I am just saying that in this very moment, we are faced with any number of options. Of course, there are ones that I am of course going to choose and ones that I am not going to choose, and that will lead to different situations in my life, end up creating the book called my life. And when someone else reads it, they won't see any evidence of free will.

But, I can seriously stop my usual listening to music and posting on the Shroomery, take off my clothing and go run around outside in the Norwegian night. I cannot change the course of the collective movement that we have, but I can change the course of my own life. There is nothing stopping me from jumping out this window; there is nothing stopping me from starting a career as a fish cleaner.

The more we get attached to things is the more we cut ourselves off from our available options that we could pursue with our free will. The more i get attached to the idea of staying in my room at night and playing bass, listening to music, and posting here, the less likely it is that I will strip naked and roam Norway at night... :grin:

But there is a difference between having limited options, not choosing certain options, and not having free will.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2022895 - 10/19/03 02:57 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with you, man, but there is a difference between treating our life as a movie that has a fixed outcome and free will.


You just made an  unintentionnal   contradiction.



The fixed ending thing is always going to happen because it is a result of our choices right now.

Wouldn't that make it not fixed?   

An  unintentionnal   contradiction #2.


I am just saying that in this very moment, we are faced with any number of options.

Those options are a product of your mind.  That is what YOU think.


I can seriously stop my usual listening to music and posting on the Shroomery...

Really?  You think you can do both for long???


but I can change the course of my own life.

Not if your "script" calls for a sinister pie in the face gag..  :lol:


The more we get attached to things is the more we cut ourselves off from our available options that we could pursue with our free will.

And what more can you be attached to than the life you have been borne into..


But there is a difference between having limited options, not choosing certain options, and not having free will.

Yes, there is. 

You have limited options here:  To read or not to read.

Not choosing certain options, like scratching your balls while currently reading this, is an example of not choosing certain options..

And you can't stop yourself from finishing the rest of this sentence. You really couldn't stop. Seriously. It happened too fast for your mind to make a decision to stop.  Your free will has just  been challenged.



But you do improvise on bass.  If you improvise with others, you practice quick decision making while paying attention.

The quicker you become at processing the attention you give, the sooner you will be free.


:eyemouth:


 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2023018 - 10/19/03 03:48 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

What I mean is that I agree with what you are saying and what I am saying. From an objective point of view, or at least a subjective view that outside of ones own subjective point of view, the one that is privleged to our thoughts and the abillity to control our actions, what you are saying holds true. Free will is an illusion from the outside looking in.

What I am saying about free will only holds true when one is going through their life, moment by moment, living their life. When one is from the outside, looking in on ones life, whatever is happening in that life is suspossed to happen. The ending of the book is fixed by the choices we made throughout our life. One could argue that all the choices we make were suspossed to happen and of course lead to the end that was suspossed to happen.

However, when you take the perspective from inside oneself, the perspective that is being faced with these options all the time and is carrying out actions, free will does exist.

I mean, let's say that I decided to go off and join the Peace Corps. From my inside point of view, I was faced with an option and decided to choose the option that consisted of joining the Peace Corps. From the outside perspective, it was suspossed to happen like that. No other available choice was going to be made.

So free will only exists depending on what perspective you are looking through, really.

The whole limited options thing, I really didn't explain what I meant. What I meant there is that some people associate a lack of options (like living forever) as meaning there is no such thing as free will. And I could have stopped reading that sentence if I truly wanted to. The option to stop reading something mid-sentence is always available and has been done before..

And I am attached to a lot. I wouldn't be able to go very long at all without playing bass guitar, listening to music, or posting on here. This isn't because there isn't free will, it is because I have attached myself to such and I find it hard to not do. I mean, I am not attached enough that if I don't get to do either, I don't flip out and thoughts of such don't consume my here and nowness, but it is still something I prefer to do..

And, yes, I do improvise on bass. Complete free will of the music I am playing at that very moment.. fun fun fun. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineAlan Stone
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Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2023233 - 10/19/03 05:12 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
Tell that to someone who has been destined to experience lamentation..  Like, say, an addict...  A cigarette smoker.  The option IS always there..  and that is especially easy to say for someone who may not smoke...  But to the smoker who wants to quit and dosen't..  THere is little or no freedom.




Lack of willpower does not prove the absence of freedom of choice.

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
So consider this..  You see a movie for the first time.  As the story unfolds, it can take any number of countless twists and turns.  You don't know what will happen next.  You try to theorize an end, but alot of the time, the resulting story is much more different than you had expected.




If our life was truly scripted like a movie scenario, then who's the scripter? From the outside, the result of the choices we make 'had to happen' because no one can tell what's going on in our head. Ask a parent whose kid committed suicide the day before if they believe their kid was meant to kill him/herself. Destiny is an invention of those in power to soothe those in need. This is what the church did for a thousand years, and look what rights it brought the lay people. It's easier for a human mind to invent a false structure to the whole than to accept maybe there's no structure at all.

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
Your body takes your mind on a ride..  Your mind analyses the ride all the time.  You are left with inner talk upon a journey that you cannot change the course of at this moment.





I could stay up all night replying to threads here on the S&P board, but to prove I have free will I won't. I'll go right to sleep after I post this. Check it.

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
Why do you suppose that everyone is crying for some sort of change in the way things are, but nothing is really changing?




People are lazy. The revolution never occured because people have too much luxiury goods to risk, and because they aren't willing to loose their comfy couch, dayly glass of wine and their greasy foods in return for more rights, dry bread and water.

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
It is not yet the moment to change course. 





Typical lazy bum quote :wink:


Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
The right conditions will come one day..

They are not here yet....

You will have your chance some day.





What, the end of capitalism? Consumer economics? The good lives we lead on the back of third world countries? Keep on dreaming in the free world. I'm off to bed. 


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2023397 - 10/19/03 06:10 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I'll begin with Fireworks_god..

"And, yes, I do improvise on bass. Complete free will of the music I am playing at that very moment.. fun fun fun. "
--------------------


Even then you are not completely free.  Your bass playin abilities are limited by the experience you have gone through from the first day you picked up a bass to the present.

I'm sure you play bass damn well.  I've even heard some of your tunes on Guitar Pro.  You have some punch.  But you are not completely free.. As you practice more, your level of freedom increases in proportion.  That's how it goes.  Freedom takes practice.
===============


Now, Alan Stone:


If our life was truly scripted like a movie scenario, then who's the scripter?

A better question might be:  Why is it scripted in this manner?


no one can tell what's going on in our head.

True.  Not even YOU know exactly what is going on in your own head.


Ask a parent whose kid committed suicide the day before if they believe their kid was meant to kill him/herself.

I feel discomfort through this statement.  I don't have a response that will go over well.. 

It is like the addict example.  To cause lamentation. 

Ask the parents the day before, and their only response to that may have been:  We don't think that would ever happen; or we hope it dosen't; or, no..  not my child.


Many things happened  to me also that I would never have wanted to happen.  But they did happen.  I consider episodes of that nature as test periods throughout my life.  A real test is never easy... 


Destiny is an invention of those in power to soothe those in need.

Destiny is not always a soothing phenomenon.


I could stay up all night replying to threads here on the S&P board, but to prove I have free will I won't.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

:lipsrsealed:


People are lazy.

What a wonderful excuse.





Deiymiyan said:
It is not yet the moment to change course.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Typical lazy bum quote



Typical ASSUMPTION.






Deiymiyan said:

The right conditions will come one day..

They are not here yet....

You will have your chance some day.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What, the end of capitalism? Consumer economics? The good lives we lead on the back of third world countries?
  :oogle:

Maybe you are right.  Why not just go nuclear and get it over with.  :nut:

[ I hope you realize that was obvious dark sarcasm at play there ]
=================






How can you be absolutely certain that the voice inside your head is really you? You suppose that it is your free will; but since you have never heard the voice inside your head, it dosen't have a tone. Without a tone to identify it with- as an individual that relates sounds with the identity of voice- you cannot say that you really hear your inner voice. Is that you then? Always? Are you certain?



     


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2024509 - 10/20/03 01:30 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
Even then you are not completely free.  Your bass playin abilities are limited by the experience you have gone through from the first day you picked up a bass to the present.

I'm sure you play bass damn well.  I've even heard some of your tunes on Guitar Pro.  You have some punch.  But you are not completely free.. As you practice more, your level of freedom increases in proportion.  That's how it goes.  Freedom takes practice.




I know exactly what you mean. Free will isn't some ticket that grants everyone unimaginable powers (we need to evolve first to get them :grin:). What I play is limited by my technique, by how well I am feeling that day, how many foreign chemicals are in my body... but I do have the choice to do whatever I wish with the abilities that I do have, even pursuing more abilities to add to my expansive technique (hence the fretless that you see below that is coming my way soon).

I guess that what I am out to show is that there is a difference between freedom and free will (to answer the question awhile up there that I forgot about, hehe). Freedom is more like all the available things that we can choose to do with our free will. It is the freedom to vote that grants us the ability to vote (along with the ability to read and make our scrimshaw), but it is our free will that we use when we decide if we are going to vote and who we are going to vote for.

And I agree, a lot of what we choose to do is the result of programming in our head. The person that plays guitar is more than likely going to pick it up again. The person who lies is going to tend to lie. But every moment we make is the result of free will, even if we don't think about it consciously as we move. Everytime we decide to move our arm this way, or type this word (Fuck George Bush!), or take a shower (which I will now go do, hehe), we are exercising our free will..

And, on a side note, if you and ekomstop get something going, I am sure it will be pretty impressive as well, man. We could tour together. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineAlan Stone
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Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2024657 - 10/20/03 04:29 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
Destiny is an invention of those in power to soothe those in need.

Destiny is not always a soothing phenomenon.





It is, ultimately, a tool to achieve peace of mind. The masses are lulled and will fall into the role those in power have prescribed for them more easily if they accept fate. Why do you think the caste system in India still exists? Exactly, it's easier to believe you're predestined for bad luck than having no way of explaining why you're always left face down in a turd.

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
People are lazy.

What a wonderful excuse.





What a wonderful refutation of my claim. :smile:
We have all the technology we have today because our ancestors wanted to make things easier. Humans DO follow the path of the least resistance, if they can get away with it. There is no real reason why every person should have a cell phone, or why you should use your car to drive five kilometers when you could travel the distance by bike in ten minutes. No real reason except laziness.


Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
It is not yet the moment to change course.

Typical lazy bum quote


Typical ASSUMPTION.




I was kidding man, it wasn't a direct insult at your adress, but you have to admit it sounds like something a lazy person could and would say.

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
How can you be absolutely certain that the voice inside your head is really you? You suppose that it is your free will; but since you have never heard the voice inside your head, it dosen't have a tone. Without a tone to identify it with- as an individual that relates sounds with the identity of voice- you cannot say that you really hear your inner voice. Is that you then? Always? Are you certain?




The voice you are referring to is a combination of you and your social and moral conditioning. 


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2025258 - 10/20/03 11:16 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"We have free will. At any given time, I can choose to go jump out of my window. That option is always there as long as there is a window and it is possible to jump through it. "

You're not going to jump out the window though. Unless there is a cause for it. You say you have the option, but you're simply not going to do it without being extremely depressed, or crazy, or whatever.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Attackgecko]
    #2025289 - 10/20/03 11:23 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"Even conscienceness is some form of energy thus that wave/waves will propigate through out the stystem for all time, and they will effect the state of the system constantly and for all time. Everything you are and everything you do lives on in one form or another forever."

We don't know how conciousness works. What if it is like a machine, a sum total of all parts in our mind? I could say that my computer lives on even after I smash it to bits, because all of the matter it is composed of will remain, but it still won't be a computer.

Your "answers" are fill with little assumptions like this. You say god is not a bearded man who lives on his throne in heaven, and while this is probably true, it is not something that can be tested, so assuming that you're right about that is just that, making an assumption.

As for the nature of time, there are many theories, and none are concrete.

It seems pretty arrogant to think that you've figured out the answers to all of the biggest questions out there, you haven't even provided us with decent evidence.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Phluck]
    #2025517 - 10/20/03 12:34 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
You're not going to jump out the window though. Unless there is a cause for it. You say you have the option, but you're simply not going to do it without being extremely depressed, or crazy, or whatever.




That's not the point. The point is that the option is there, and that I am free to take that option if I so desire. I am free to do so. While I am not able to fly when I jump out the window, as it isn't something that I am capable of, I am free to jump out my window if I feel like I want to.

Whether or not I choose to not take an available option does not say anything about free will, except for the fact that I used it to decide to not jump out the window.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2026172 - 10/20/03 04:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think you truly are free to do so unless you make the decision to do so. Otherwise, it is a theoretical possibility that you will jump out the window, but not psychologically possible.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Phluck]
    #2026200 - 10/20/03 04:16 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
I don't think you truly are free to do so unless you make the decision to do so. Otherwise, it is a theoretical possibility that you will jump out the window, but not psychologically possible.




Well, I am free to make the possibility turn into reality at any time, but it would take some mental preparing... technically, no, I am psychologically not capable of doing such, nor will I ever be... (at least, I fucking hope not.. hehe)
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Registered: 04/17/03
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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2026361 - 10/20/03 05:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"Lack of willpower does not prove the absence of freedom of choice."
-------------------



You must have just added that into your previous post; else I just missed it before.  It concerns the cigarette example and not being able to quit.


I'll argue that wanting something and not being able to attain it is NOT freedom.  Many smokers say things like:  If I had it my way, I would have never started; or, I wish I could quit.


Willpower is the power that one has to make a choice that they want [That would be freewill right... to chose something that you want?].  Without it, your will is not free.
===============


"The masses are lulled and will fall into the role those in power have prescribed for them more easily if they accept fate."
------------------------

Not necessarily.  Let's look at the US drug war for a second.  Those in power are not really stopping anything significant.  The people [many, I would imagine] are not agreeing with the fate as it is supposedly prescribed to them by the lawmakers.

Besides..  many of them [the people] are really not doing anything wrong anyways.  They are just good people like yourself and everyone in this Forum.



There is an underlying feeling that the real fate/destiny/ whateveryouwanttocallit is already underway; set forth by an authority higher than government.  You cannot stop what is going to happen.
================



And lastly, your quote concerning inner voices:

"The voice you are referring to is a combination of you and your social and moral conditioning."
-----------------------


You did not reply.  How do you know it is really always YOU?




[Aside] -  p.s. I just have to add...  I'll wholeheartedly agree with you that many inventions came about to curb the "laziness" phenomenon.  THere is a difference between that and being like a sloth..  I took it as if you meant sloth-like, when you said lazy. 

:eyemouth:


 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2027106 - 10/20/03 09:55 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I think the whole "fixed outcome" theory has been put in reverse, we should take a look at the past instead of the future when referring to this.  The only true fixed outcomes happen in the past.  Including the past which just happened .0000000000001 seconds ago.  Although I can seemingly change the outcome while in the present or future, there is nothing I can do to change what has been done in my perception of the "past", it has been forever fixed in place and cannot be changed.  For example if I were in a car accident and required surgery, I could always undergo treatment for my injuries either right now or in the future, but I could never go back and prevent the car accident from happening, it's done and over with, another "fixed outcome".  While writing this post I did delete a few sentences and corrected some spelling/grammar errors, but is it possible for me to go back and change the "fixed outcome" by writing a grammar-perfect post without having to delete anything?  I don't think so. Maybe if I had stopped and taken the time to think more clearly before typing, those errors never would have ocurred. But the fact is, I can from now on think before typing and never make another mistake again but I cannot do a thing to go back in the past and "de-delete" those errors for lack of a better word.


Ok, either this, or the "fixed outcome" and the present are both happening simultaneously, with no division between what just happened and what is happening.


I'm just offering another view based on my perspective, unlike the guy that had the answers to all the "big questions" I'm very open to comments/remarks about my views on this topic.  :grin: 


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Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), :pm: me if you have any for trade

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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2028186 - 10/21/03 09:16 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
I'll argue that wanting something and not being able to attain it is NOT freedom. Many smokers say things like: If I had it my way, I would have never started; or, I wish I could quit.

Willpower is the power that one has to make a choice that they want [That would be freewill right... to chose something that you want?]. Without it, your will is not free.




Without it, your choice is free, but your freedom to stick with your choice isn't. There's a difference. So yes, your will isn't free, but your choices are. My definition of free will is "the ability to make any choice you want to, regardless of whether your choice concerns a realistic goal."

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
Not necessarily. Let's look at the US drug war for a second. Those in power are not really stopping anything significant. The people [many, I would imagine] are not agreeing with the fate as it is supposedly prescribed to them by the lawmakers.

Besides.. many of them [the people] are really not doing anything wrong anyways. They are just good people like yourself and everyone in this Forum.




There's a difference between drug legislation and the government prescribing fate. Goverments in modern democracies don't have absolutist power. They can pass a law that clandestinises drug use, but they don't have the power to make sure people don't do drugs. So, in effect, their power is limited on that issue.
What I meant was that - in the past in any case, and probably still today - poor, rightless people were told by their priests that they should accept the way their lives were, because that was their fate, determined by God. That's the original practical use for fate. The priests kept the paupers uneducated, the rulers kept them poor, and both priests and rulers could benefit from the riches the paupers provided for them.
The original use for satellites was to aid communication. Later, they were used to spy on various people/countries. So, in effect, the original design and the eventual use can vary.

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
There is an underlying feeling that the real fate/destiny/ whateveryouwanttocallit is already underway; set forth by an authority higher than government. You cannot stop what is going to happen.





Of course you cannot stop what is going on in the world, and this has one reason: you are just one person. If people unite, however, they can change the world. But they need more than a common denominator to do so.
The macro-organism that is society has nothing to do with free choice, however. If you want to kill a person, no law is going to stop you. If you want to rob, same case. If you want to use drugs, you can, because humans have a tendency to ignore fate, say 'fuck it' and do what they feel like.

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
You did not reply. How do you know it is really always YOU?




I did answer the question. At times it's society's programming of your ego that speaks and gets moral on your ass. So no, it's not always you.

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:[Aside] - p.s. I just have to add... I'll wholeheartedly agree with you that many inventions came about to curb the "laziness" phenomenon. THere is a difference between that and being like a sloth.. I took it as if you meant sloth-like, when you said lazy.




I agree, there is a difference. While humans aren't all sloths, we do have a desire to do nothing but that which pleases us. We're only lazy in the sense of anti-work, work defined as "any type of labour that humans do against their will".


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: All the big questions answered..... [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2029686 - 10/21/03 05:49 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I enjoyed your rebuttal.



Deiymiyan said:
I'll argue that wanting something and not being able to attain it is NOT freedom. Many smokers say things like: If I had it my way, I would have never started; or, I wish I could quit.

Willpower is the power that one has to make a choice that they want [That would be freewill right... to chose something that you want?]. Without it, your will is not free.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Without it, your choice is free, but your freedom to stick with your choice isn't. There's a difference. So yes, your will isn't free, but your choices are. My definition of free will is "the ability to make any choice you want to, regardless of whether your choice concerns a realistic goal."



If you cannot stick with a choice that passed, your will is still imprisonned... and not free.

If you want to gain certain material things, for example, - not out of greed mind you - and cannot, then there are some conditions that are affecting your brain's choice to aquire it: be it lack of funds, lack of supply, you name a reason and it holds.. What happens, is bound by the set of rules that you have no control over.

Let's say you didn't have the money.. Why not? Did you choose to be broke? [ I just want to point out that when I use "you", I am using it in the general way and not refering to you as the person... You misunderstood that point when you refered to the you as being just one person...] Let's say you gambled and lost your money always. No matter how much you chose to want that 'something' you wouldn't get it. That would be more like a desperate attempt, and not really a choice.

Allow me to say this... What goes on in your head, and what you end up doing are two different things. If it happens to coincide with a particular desire, then you were meant to have it.

I used a negative example [addiction] to illustrate that even though your reasonable/wishful/desperate choice is to discard it, you cannot. In a case like that you were meant to feel what it is like to be "weak".

If it were a positive example, like taking a piece of pie instead of rotten eggs, the illustration would not be apparent.

It seems to me that when you say :"the ability to make any choice you want to, regardless of whether your choice concerns a realistic goal."... that it is like a wishfull "laundry list" kind of analogy.

If you make a REAL choice, then the outcome has to be REAL also.
================


There's a difference between drug legislation and the government prescribing fate.

If fate dictates that the government plays its role as the prescriber, then that is the nature of fate.

In the example of drug legislation, the story of a caught drug user, in terms of fate as dictated by legislators, will lead to imprisonnment... But it is the user's fate, to be, or not to be, caught.

I suppose what I intended to say illustrate with the example, is that fate cannot be dictated by the "players of the game"... There is a whole set of rules that play out every one's role and the outcomes of their roles... until a specific time period is reached.

I do believe that fate will then be in the hands of the individual.
=================


Of course you cannot stop what is going on in the world, and this has one reason: you are just one person.

Yeah.. this is where you used it... I didn't mean you as one person. What is going on, cannot be stopped...

It is not a losing battle however... There will come a time, when another chance will be granted.
=====================


...because humans have a tendency to ignore fate...

I just want to point out... That pleading ignorance and hiding your head in the sand like a cartoon ostrige will not exempt you from fate. You can ignore it/ turn a blind eye if you wish; but it will not ignore you.
=====================


At times it's society's programming of your ego that speaks and gets moral on your ass.

Your brain's socially wired ego is affected as you say... But I believe that your brain's ego is influenced by more than that. As far as your statement goes, I am in agreeance with you.







--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


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