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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2228394 - 01/08/04 03:11 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
You guys, you're comparing belief in Bob Dole's superior mind powers and going to heaven, with belief in God and Jesus and going to heaven.  It doesn't work for me.  If you're trying to make a point, please make a better one.  I can't argue this one.  Or explain the point you're trying to make. 





What I am saying is that my mind doesn't see the difference. The fact that so many more people believe in God as he is presented in Christianity rather than Bob Dole's superior mind powers (I'm probably the only one, but I only enertain it as well, creative enertainment... I'm insane like that. :nut:) doesn't make it more reasonable to believe in.

I mean, also that the concept of God is something that has been carried for so fucking long. I see everything as being a concept. The concept of what love is, etc... I see "God" as being a collection of thoughts, an idea, that has gone through a hell of a lot of people, considering what this particular concept entails.

Consider why a lot of people approach pondering this concept. It is usually relative to some unknown. Why are we here? What was before? What will be after? What is the meaning, the point? A lot of what makes up the concept of God has been contributed to by people asking these questions, and I can't help but feel that a lot of it is just someone patching over these unknowns, not being able to bear the abyss and trying to "solve" it by putting some newspapers over it...

Myself, I don't see how we can begin to fill in this abyss, by just finding something to believe... I sort of consider evolution becoming gradually more aware, working our way back to that unknown, to solve the puzzle....

Of course, to believe in Bob Dole, you don't need any chasm jumping, when you see him telepathicly bake some cookies, seeing is believing. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblejpod
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2228410 - 01/08/04 03:15 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

I will say one more thing in this thread, which is that I believe silversoul is absolutely right when he questions people when they claim something on faith. People need to understand why they have faith. Far too many people don't question what they are told and end up holding hollow beliefs. This can only lead to an empty faith based on empty shell made of lack of reason. How can this be a secure faith?

For many years I rejected the Christian faith. I assure you I do not hold my beliefs just because someone told me it was true, or I am scared of Hell, or any such thing. I have studied very extensively in many varied areas of relion, philosophy, and sciences. And while I agree that no amount of studies can show a proof of God either way, one who is seeking knowledge can certainly find evidences that may point them in one direction or another, and may use their rational brain to ponder and interpret these evidences as they may. This is really all we as humans can do with the gifts we have, to seek answers which do not exist in a form we can sense with our physical selves.

Certainly each one of us will be moved by various evidences in differing ways and amounts. Therefore we each must seek the evidences which move ourselves and draw from them. This reasoning is where our solidly based internal faith comes from, regardless of what that faith may be, whether you believe in God or not, or even if you believe you are a god. How can a faith without reason be a true faith, when it is baseless?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2228412 - 01/08/04 03:15 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Let me put it this way:  I am the one and only Son of God.  Jesus is a false idol.  Worship me on faith alone and you shall be rewarded in the hereafter.  If you do not, you will be banished to eternal torture in the Lake of Fire.  So what's it gonna be?  Me or Jesus?  You willing to risk eternal damnation to follow Jesus?




We all know that it is ME who is Jesus. You must have all forgotten since I took down the avatar.. what can I say, Disco Stu is one cool dude. :grin:

Disco Stu Likes Disco music.  :laugh:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2228414 - 01/08/04 03:16 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Are you the anti-christ? j/k.

If you come to me out of the blue, the way you are right now, and say what you say, I'm not even going to give you a second thought.

If you had been around for a while, performing miracles, doing good deeds, etc., and then claimed you were the son of God, I might have to ask around about you.



How do you know I haven't done all these things?

Quote:

But see, what's difficult about arguing this point is that it's not real. We could argue "what if" all day, but it's kind of pointless because the "what ifs" aren't real. You're not the son of God.



And how do you know this?

Quote:

If your point is that my beliefs seem ridiculous to you because I have nothing concrete by which to support my beliefs, I get your point. You have a right not to believe what I believe.



It's not that I think your beliefs are ridiculous. It's your reasons for why you think I should believe the same that are ridiculous. That's the point I'm making here.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: jpod]
    #2228422 - 01/08/04 03:18 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

jpod, I totally agree with you.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2228437 - 01/08/04 03:21 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

It's not that I think your beliefs are ridiculous. It's your reasons for why you think I should believe the same that are ridiculous. That's the point I'm making here.

What reasons have I given that you should believe the same as I believe?  I think I've given the reasons that I believe the way I do, but I haven't said that anyone has to believe the way I do.  :confused:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2228463 - 01/08/04 03:29 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

You said earlier in this thread something like:

Quote:

What if you die, and find out there's really a God? If you don't believe in Jesus, you will go to hell. But if you believe, just on faith, and there's a God, you will go to heaven. But if you believe, and there's not God, what did you lose by believing?



This is what I'm addressing. It's a very common Christian argument, known in philosophy as Pasqual's wager. I'm addressing where that argument falls short.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2228509 - 01/08/04 03:44 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Yes, I know what that argument is. I think it is supposed to be a bad one, too. I mainly brought it up because it just sort of makes sense to me.

This is probably like beating a dead horse at this point, isn't it? I really have nothing against you or anyone for not believing.

Here's what it is, for me, I think: I, personally, wish everyone would believe because I basically like people and if I'm going to heaven, because of my beliefs, then I want everyone to have my beliefs so that they can go with me. It's more of a selfish thing, I suppose.

But I'm not saying that you are going to hell, either. I stopped believing that way a long time ago. I figured out that maybe "God" is not the only name by which God goes, and maybe there are things I don't know. So how presumptious of me to say I'm going to heaven and you're not.

I know I'm sounding contradictory right now. But basically it's my fundamental Christian beliefs that were taught to me that you have to believe that Christ was born and died for your sins so that you could go to heaven. Well, I believe that.

But I am not going to be the one pointing out who is going to hell, because I could be wrong. Or the beliefs I've been taught could be wrong. Maybe the bible was interpreted incorrectly in some aspects.

So I will wait and see what happens, and in the meantime, live the way I think I'm supposed to live, based on my beliefs.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2228579 - 01/08/04 04:07 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

I think Jesus's true message which got warped and misinterpreted as it was handed down from people to people to generation to generation and so on; was that we are ALL God's sons and daughters. That God, is our father in the Universe.

If you know your Bible correctly, you'll know that there is a HUGE gap in Jesus's life...from when he was a baby....till he was in his 30's.
I dont think Jesus was just BORN like he was acting in his 30's. He obviously grew up around people who had major influence on his views and so forth...and well, geuss what? He did...The Nag-Hammadi scrolls indicate that Jesus was either an Essene, a student of the Essenes, or at least associated very closely with this sect (which was said to have believed in reincarnation) during the ?lost? or ?silent? years of his life between the ages of 12 and 30.

THEN, he found the inner TRUTH...and shared it, and spread it around with all good intentions and so on...but the Officials and Authorities of the land was intimidated and scared that Jesus was going to overthrow their religion and well...the rest is history.


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2228824 - 01/08/04 05:50 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

you don't need any chasm jumping

As I coined that term, please remit a $0.10 royalty everytime that appears in print. PM me for an address.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Swami]
    #2228848 - 01/08/04 06:02 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Can't I just chasm jump the payment?

Um, either put it on God's tab or charge the bill to Bob Dole, thank you very much.

No! He heard us use his name! He just told me to kill all of you! *screams horribly*

:nut:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2228859 - 01/08/04 06:05 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Nice thoughts, Skorpivo.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2233453 - 01/10/04 05:36 PM (18 years, 20 days ago)

Actually, it was John the Baptizer whom some believed was an Essene, though this is largely rejected. Jews belonging to the Pharasees - the sect that Jesus is most closely aligned with (as opposed to the saducees who did NOT believe in a Resurrection), used water ablutions as well for ritual cleansing. Jesus was not an Essene. Neither did He travel more than 200 miles from the place of His birth in Roman-occupied Judea like some fanciful writers have suggested (e.g., Levi's 'The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ'). BTW, transmigration of souls also called metempsychosis or reincarnation remained in Christian doctrine until 530 A.D. when it was rejected at the Council of Chalcedon, because it afforded the believer too much time for salvation.

I disagree that we are all 'Children of God.' Not every apparently human being Is truly human in the fullest sense of the word. Below the common self-centered a**hole on the street there are evidently demonic entities in human garb. They themselves do not usually regard themselves as 'demons,' sometimes they have inklings as to their non-humanity but claim to be of superior species. My own singular measure of being human is Compassion. The more Compassionate, the more profoundly human. The more Compassionate, the more suffused with Divinity as well.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2233544 - 01/10/04 06:25 PM (18 years, 20 days ago)

Firstly, I suspect Biblical history and such is just so warped and skewed as it got handed down to people to other people and to other people and then to generation to generation over thousands of years....I dont think people in those times necessarilly had their shit super-organized and well-structered, and so on....but whatever, I could be wrong--but thats the thing, nobody TODAY can really say for sure who's right or who's wrong, UNLESS they are immortal and actually lived in those times and in the place of those times and experienced it at firsthand. So, eh -shrugs- whatever.

As for the Children of God...
In my belief of reincarnation, everybody who incarnates here in this plane of existence, the 3rd dimension, CAME from the other side, the 4th Dimension. Every soul is a part of God. So despite what misfortunes and grievances and harrowing lifetimes a soul goes through in their incarnation on this planet Earth that led them to become a less compassionate human than they COULD have been, the fact remains, they are still a part of God. Do you think God just disowns every soul who makes a mistake and goes down a spiral of bad karma and energy because they were too weak stay strong and be good? If your child gets busted using drugs and gets sent to jail and then becomes an even worse criminal just by being locked up amongst the morbid wolves of society and spirals down a life of uncompassionate hatred and crime, he is still your child, regardless. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Sure, you could "disown" him, but thats an illusion created by law. He's still your child and thus a part of you. No human being was born pure evil or uncompassionate. Not everbody is fortunate enough to have a strong soul insofar as to cope honorably with their trials and tribulations, and refrain from succumbing to the Dark Side.


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2233553 - 01/10/04 06:33 PM (18 years, 20 days ago)

The assholes are still children of God. I have recently been in a situation where someone is drinking and lying and generally being a shit. Actually, he's an asshole, but he used to be a good person. I think facets of his personality, that he has kept hidden, are coming out. He can no longer hide them. He needs help.

But even though he's acting like an asshole, it's only because of problems he has for which he needs counseling. These problems are interefering with his ability to act like a good human being. He is lacking in compassion somewhat, but he's still a child of God. I think God still loves him. Everyone is just in different states of being human, I think. There's always hope for each of us.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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