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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Learyfan]
    #2224172 - 01/06/04 09:58 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

...Then you think wrongly. I became a Christian at age 22, in 1976. I was pretty well-read in world religions, history of magickal traditions and had taught Yoga by then. I'm a bit more well-read now, and have had 29 more years to experience being 'in Christ.' I do not live in fear, I have much peace. Moreover, I have sought Wisdom, and GOD has supplied me with more than I ever expected as well as much more materially (home, career, recent inherited funds from surprise source), thereby illustrating to me the Truth in the dictate: "Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven and its righteousness, and all things will be added unto ye." I did not seek GOD to be rewarded - I sought GOD because GOD is the Ultimate Object of human existence and Union with GOD (Mysticism) is its own reward.

The Wrathful, Left Pillar of GOD's Nature and the Merciful Right Pillar of GOD's Nature are joined by the Central Pillar, as illustrated by the Kabbalistic Tree of Life. This map which belongs to Jewish Mysticism is helpful to the Christian as well. The Light of GOD is a consuming fire or a beatific vision - depending upon the condition of the human being. All that does not become Loving Kindness in a human being is burned away like dross being burned off of Gold when it is refined. All the evil, impurity, stupid selfishness that is far from the Divine Nature, dies. To the extent that one becomes transformed and identifies oneself with the "Inner Man" (St. Paul), the "indwelling Christ," one has Eternal Life ("I live, yet not I, Christ liveth in me.") If it is given to you to know, you have much to learn about what it means to be a Christian.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224221 - 01/06/04 10:16 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Let me restate the fact that I respect your beliefs, but I also don't understand them.

Quote:

My understanding is that we all deserve to burn in hell for being the sinners that we are, but that these days, since the birth of Christ, we have been redeemed.




See, now that's not right. How can you be a sinner before you've even done anything? Why would you believe this??

Quote:

but as long as we believe in Christ, we don't have to go to the hell we deserve, because God loves us.




That's just a round about way of saying God will send you to be burned and tortured for enternity for not doing what he says.

Why would God feel the need to get revenge on you? How could God do that to someone who is a part of him? How can you believe that a being who would do this "loves you"?



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OfflinePositronius
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224300 - 01/06/04 10:46 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

blech.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Learyfan]
    #2224382 - 01/06/04 11:32 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

To answer your questions, I would have to refer to the bible.  I was never good at quoting scripture from memory.  I just know what I believe, based on what has been taught to me.  I'm open minded about this subject for discussion, but I would have to show where it says it in the bible, and I can't do that, without taking a lot of time to go through the bible to reference the passages.  I don't have time.

Maybe someone here with better knowledge of the bible can answer these questions.    :grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224522 - 01/07/04 12:40 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

So in your God's eyes we are guilty until proven innocent with this whole original sin thing right? Glad I'm made myself exempt from this religion a few years back...  :lol:


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Offlinedaba
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2224542 - 01/07/04 12:46 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

You know one thing that puzzles me is that any extraordinary happenstance is credited towards a religion or "God."

Why can't those things be attributed to chance?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: chodamunky]
    #2224562 - 01/07/04 12:52 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

No, actually, we're pretty much always guilty.  And I can tell you where it says that:  Romans.    :grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224631 - 01/07/04 01:16 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

If that's what you believe, then I love you for it. I personally reject any God who would reject me. I see no reason why "God's" love wouldn't be unconditional.

Look in your heart Frog, not in the bible.




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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Learyfan]
    #2224666 - 01/07/04 01:23 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Leary, I don't believe God rejects any of us!  We reject Him!

Sorry to sound like a zealot.  I'm not in my real life.  *smiles)

I play pool in dives, I speed on the freeway like a demon, I say "fuck" often.  I don't care for bible-thumpers, because I prefer someone to walk the walk rather than talk the talk. 

Now I'm going to sound like a zealot  :grin: :

(Assume this to be true, for the purposes of this discussion)  God loves us so much that rather than damn us to eternity for being sinners, He sent His only son to be born and die a horrible death for us, so that we wouldn't have to be condemned.  All we have to do in return is accept Jesus as our saviour.  What's so bad about that???


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224707 - 01/07/04 01:47 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

How do you feel about original sin? It seems weird to me that humans, by nature, are sinners, and that we deserve to be damned to hell for it.

It also seems weird to me that God couldn't just allow sinners into heaven. If he is the one calling the shots, why did he set the system up so that he had to kill his only son for our salvation?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2224724 - 01/07/04 01:54 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

My understanding is that we are all sinners.  The "original sin" part comes from Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit in the garden.  Was bound to happen.  No one can "not" be a sinner and get into heaven, because we are all sinners. 

See, this is what people don't understand.  I will have to use me as an example.    :grin:

I am a sinner.  *hi*  I commit sins every day.  If the old testament was still in effect, I would be going to hell, no doubt. 

However!  This is what was bothersome to God.  NONE OF US WERE GOING TO HEAVEN!!!!

So, He changed the rules, hence, the New Testament.  He decided to send Jesus to die for our sins, so that we, His children (so to speak), could still go to heaven. 

See???  We are sinners, and He knows it.  We will never NOT be sinners.  He discovered we couldn't live by His rules.  He's like a parent. 

I have kids.  When one of my kids fucks up, I don't throw him into the traffic of on-coming cars.  I let him take his consequences, and I get him back on his feet.  I will do anything for one of my kids.  And supposedly God will do anything for us, including sending His son to die for us.

But we're not condemned any more.  God changed the rules because He knew we couldn't live by His rules all the time.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224729 - 01/07/04 01:57 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

So, He changed the rules, hence, the New Testament. He decided to send Jesus to die for our sins, so that we, His children (so to speak), could still go to heaven.




How were people judged in the days of the old testament? Surely everyone didn't go to hell.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2224752 - 01/07/04 02:05 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Yes!  Or, wait.  What's that place called where they went, and when Revelations occurs, they will get out?  Hades?  :nonono:

But those people are going to get a second chance.  I'm sure of that.  *looks around for someone who knows better who will disagree*


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224765 - 01/07/04 02:12 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

You may have answered this already, but,

What do you think hell is?

Is it mere separation from God or a place of physical torment?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2224776 - 01/07/04 02:18 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

I've thought about that myself. I don't think I've ever studied what hell, specifically, is.

My own personal belief on what hell is is separation from God, for eternity.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224782 - 01/07/04 02:23 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

The true reason (playing along with biblical tangents) that we're all "sinners" is because we all hold ourselves to unrealistic and impossible standards--that is, to be Divine. Basically speaking, no human being will ever be TRULY sin-free, because the fact is, it's not in our human-nature. Christians STRIVE to be something they CANNOT truly be. They can do their absolute best, of course. Some can get pretty good at it. But the bottom line still remains--nobody will ever be "perfect". And I'm only speaking of "perfect" in terms of the way, a typical bible-thumpin christian would...that is..to be sin-free.


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2224788 - 01/07/04 02:30 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Well, hell, skorvivo, I absolutely agree with you on that one!


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224965 - 01/07/04 04:16 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

My understanding is that we all deserve to burn in hell for being the sinners that we are, but that these days, since the birth of Christ, we have been redeemed.



And you really believe this?!  You really think that all human beings are so wretched--so vile and evil--that we all deserve eternal torture?  I wouldn't wish that upon my worst enemy, and I certainly don't see why God would.  How low an opinion of humanity God must have... :nonono:


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2224998 - 01/07/04 04:33 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Well, think about it. Stealing, murder, lying, cheating, etc. etc. etc., ad nauseum. Assuming that God is perfect, we are way less than perfect, and we are sinners, and if God created us, then we deserve to burn in hell for not being perfect, as He is.

But why can't you get past that? Why can't you get to the part where God forgave us in spite of our sins, and is letting us go to heaven in spite of ourselves?

That's the part I don't understand. You guys don't understand me for believing the way I do. Well, I don't understand why anyone would not.

I had this conversation with my girlfriend once, and I think I posted about that conversation here. She's an agnostic. Or atheist. Or whatever it's called. She doesn't believe in God.

I said, "What if you die, and find out there's really a God? If you don't believe in Jesus, you will go to hell. But if you believe, just on faith, and there's a God, you will go to heaven. But if you believe, and there's not God, what did you lose by believing?"

I have never tried to talk anyone into believing the way I believe. I live and let live. But if I'm right about God, I'd like to see my friends go with me, so I tried talking her into it one night.

I don't see God as mean, or vengeful, or whatever. I see God as a loving father. Just because you guys see God the way you see Him, and therefore refuse to believe, doesn't mean that I am wrong for believing. It also doesn't mean that you are right about God.

Everyone sees God differently. What's interesting to me is ... Why do I see Him as a loving God, and I believe in Him, and you guys, who don't believe, see Him as a mean God? Very interesting.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2225021 - 01/07/04 04:49 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

It doesn't matter who you believe it or whatever you believe in--be it nothing. Because everybody goes back to the other side when they die.


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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