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OfflineHidingInPlainSight
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From athiest to christian...
    #2215492 - 01/02/04 07:31 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

A couple of months back an experience happened to my cousin who was an athiest.
I'd like to share... I'm keeping it short too. :smile:

My cousin B kept saying, "If there is a God, I want to see proof." Later on that night, he picked something up blowing around outside in someones yard.. it was a card explaining why you need to get saved and how God loves you. I told him, "Theres your sign right there!" he shrugged it off as coincidence.

That night, we were in my room and he was asking me if God was real why doesn't he do stuff like he did in the Bible back in the old days...

As he finished that sentence, a very bright light shone in my window and filled up my whole room. (Keep in mind this is at 1:00 A.M at night.)

My room is about 300 yards away from the road, because we live far out in the country. He wanted me to go look out the window to see what it was, but for some reason I was very scared to look out, but never have been before.

After I stepped back from the window, my cell phone started lighting up like crazy, although no one was calling me. As I started to lay down in bed, I felt an intense euphoric-loving tingly sensation spreading all over my body (Almost an LSD-like feeling). It was so intense I had to lay down. All the sudden emotion spread over me and I began crying. I lost sense of time for a while, and when I cam back I said, "B, did you feel that?". He said, "Yeah, It was God. I know it." Once those feelings left I we both got very scared, like once God left we were back in the same evil world..

After that, when we got up to go get a drink, we both felt very lethargic..

My cousin is now a believer...  :sun: :cool:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2215513 - 01/02/04 07:39 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

Please tell me he doesn't now believe that the world is only 10,000 years old or that the dinosaurs perished in the great flood.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2215519 - 01/02/04 07:42 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

I think people will see "signs" when they're looking for them.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineHidingInPlainSight
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Strumpling]
    #2215529 - 01/02/04 07:49 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

I wasn't looking for a sign.. but saw one... God is just to evident to ingnore for me..


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2215543 - 01/02/04 07:58 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

What is God? I think you'd have to define what God is before you claim that he/she/it is "evident."


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibledjfrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2215552 - 01/02/04 08:02 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

sounds like rasta


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OfflineHidingInPlainSight
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2215555 - 01/02/04 08:03 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

God is the being that created everything, and governs everything.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2215570 - 01/02/04 08:14 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

I'm sorry but that's way too vague of an answer. We don't know that anything created everything, and we don't know that there's anything governing anything either.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2215573 - 01/02/04 08:15 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

ledzepln86 said:
God is the being that created everything, and governs everything.



Sounds a little vague. I mean, I'm pretty sure my parents created me, so what does God have to do with that? And what do you mean he governs everything? Arnold Schwarzenegger is governing the state I'm in. My brain governs my body. In fact, it seems to me like most things you see are created and/or governed by something other than God, unless you believe that everything is God.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2215584 - 01/02/04 08:20 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

"unless you believe that everything is God."

Yeah, in which case why call it God? Why not just call it everything or existence..

I think when people label "everything" or "all" or "existence" as "GOD," they know damn well that they're not referring to the conventional meaning of the word - I think they just want to fit in and be able to say "Thank GOD!" even though they're thanking something completely different than many others who would say the same thing


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Strumpling]
    #2215593 - 01/02/04 08:27 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

I am of that belief, but I believe there's more to it than that. It's just that I have trouble putting the concept into words, so I call it "God" for the sake of convenience.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2215597 - 01/02/04 08:30 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

As he finished that sentence, a very bright light shone in my window and filled up my whole room.

God is a police helicopter with a searchlight?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Swami]
    #2215600 - 01/02/04 08:33 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

and to follow up Swami:

"He wanted me to go look out the window to see what it was, but for some reason I was very scared to look out, but never have been before."

"But never have before.." hmm...... so bright lights shine into your room often, but you're just usually able to look out the window and see where its coming from. This time you didn't want to because if you did you'd see it wasn't God?

edit: sorry if it sounds like I'm picking on you.... I just find religion and "God" to be strange preoccupations - stranger, even, than mushrooms, which we KNOW exist. I'll probably leave this thread unless I'm addressed


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (01/02/04 08:37 PM)


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2215621 - 01/02/04 08:49 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

I was very scared to look out




If you were scared then you didn't think it was divine when it was happening. There was a logical explanation for this and afterwards you convinced yourself. Why not look and find confirmation?


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2215626 - 01/02/04 08:51 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

because that would have destroyed it...

lol sorry to return but this is like one time when I was laying in bed late at night, and for some reason I convinced myself that there were aliens standing in my room.

I didn't look. I was paralyzed.. I didn't want to look because this game was too fun! Eventually when I checked there was nothing there, so the game was over and I fell asleep bored.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Strumpling]
    #2215840 - 01/02/04 11:31 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

No they WERE there. They just got tired of waiting for you to look at them, so they left. You think aliens don't have a life and have nothing better to do?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Swami]
    #2215876 - 01/03/04 12:04 AM (18 years, 28 days ago)

"If you were scared then you didn't think it was divine when it was happening"

um.... SAY WHAT?! you dont think divine experiences are scary? Weather its an acid trip, an out of body experience or a touch of divine prescence i dont think any divine/supernatural experience is anything less than terrifying, at least in some respects.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2216267 - 01/03/04 06:11 AM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

um.... SAY WHAT?! you dont think divine experiences are scary? Weather its an acid trip, an out of body experience or a touch of divine prescence i dont think any divine/supernatural experience is anything less than terrifying, at least in some respects.




Ignoring the fact that you are equating a divine prescence with a cid trip, why would God's prescense be terrifying? How about positive and life affirming?


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
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Offlinedaba
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2216452 - 01/03/04 11:24 AM (18 years, 27 days ago)

:grin: I love the debates that go on in this forum.

Everything is coincidence you know.  There is a chance for anything to happen at any given moment!


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Fold for The Shroomery!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: daba]
    #2216465 - 01/03/04 11:42 AM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Everything is coincidence you know.

I beg to differ! Everything is most definately not coincidence! Everything follows a path, according to Cause and Effect.

This moment could not have happened differently. There is a reason for its being.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinedaba
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: trendal]
    #2216473 - 01/03/04 11:50 AM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Of course, there are many perspectives.

Sure, I agree with you on predestination (we already had a conversation similar to this).

But after all, we as humans are but a container of hydrogen and oxygen. Mix us together, and there will be mostly water, O2, and H2. But let us not forget the chance of a hydronium ion.

Cause and Effect is meaningful only in the human's perspective.


--------------------
Fold for The Shroomery!


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InvisibleBadEnglish
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2216482 - 01/03/04 12:00 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

#1: we have proof of evolution,no proof 0f God.Just a book that was written long ago in a time when things as simple as lightning were interpreted as signs from Heaven.
Do I believe everything in the bible is a fairy tale,absolutely not,but i do believe exaggerated and morphed over time,(like that game telephone everybody sees and hears things differently.)
#2:Even if there is a greater power the true fraud is religion.Organized religion regardless of the type is about power,corruption,deceit and control,not about God or Love.It is Organized religon that causes the majority of conflicts in the world,not the belief in a higher being.
#3:it sound to me like maybe it was aliens.A bright light,cell phone started acting crazy,feeling of euphoria,You were abducted and the Lethargy afterwards was to cover the pain of the Anal probe!
#4:I do believe that things happen as for a purpose and along predestined paths,however I believe thta you can make changes in that path sending you on a new path,while the orignal continues along as it should.There are many paths And i dont believe this has anything to do with God,but more to do with Physics,as in string theory.


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Anonymous

Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2216526 - 01/03/04 12:43 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Congratulations!  :thumbup:

Let no one dissuade you from the path you have chosen.  May it lead to a happy end.

"The fool has said in his heart, there is no God."  Psalm 14:1


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: trendal]
    #2216774 - 01/03/04 03:54 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

This moment could not have happened differently. There is a reason for its being. 

In light of what you said about the event that took place, I am going to equate it with this very moment. Are you telling me these words I just typed in this very sentence could not have been replaced by any words? that I had no choice in replying to your what you have said? that I was bound to respond to you and say exactly what I'm saying now? I'm reading a book on philosophy right now and I just finished the Free Will chapter..  :wink:


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Offlinedaba
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: chodamunky]
    #2216789 - 01/03/04 04:03 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

No. That moment which you typed those words could not have happened differently?
You want proof? Look, you typed your reply and chose the words you did, just like I am typing this message right now. It couldn't have happened any other way :smile:!


--------------------
Fold for The Shroomery!


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Anonymous

Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: ]
    #2216967 - 01/03/04 06:21 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
Congratulations!  :thumbup:

Let no one dissuade you from the path you have chosen.  May it lead to a happy end.

"The fool has said in his heart, there is no God."  Psalm 14:1




I am with you on this. I wish you good luck and further your relationship with God. :thumbup:


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2216972 - 01/03/04 06:24 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

"Ignoring the fact that you are equating a divine prescence with a cid trip, why would God's prescense be terrifying? How about positive and life affirming? " -special ed

first off, dont ignore the fact that i equate gods presence with a cid trip, the experiences are diffrent but the basic fact is in both cases you are having a direct experience of something totally beyond your normal reality. I used the cid exampole becuase most of us know what the feeling of direct experience with the incredible is like from our drug experiences, and we know how frightening it can be. BTW on this topic definetly check out this link very worth while http://homepage.mac.com/bdelions/ramdass.good_friday_web.mp3
its about the good friday project in which religious visions are compared to drug trips

I think a direct experience of god as this kid is describing (possibly) would be scary. After the bible talks often about the 'fear of god' and to be honest alot of the things that bastard does in the old testament are pretty scary. But i do think it would be life affirmming and all that as well, especially after the fact when you know that god really does exist, just like i often feel very refreshed and renknewd after a good mush trip. Its the experience itself that is often hard to handle.

(ok the link didnt work, i dont know why, but herews a little bit about the experiment: http://www.bluehoney.org/GoodFri.htm
a while ago someone posted an audio of ram dass speaking about this and it was very interesting so try and dig it up )


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2217046 - 01/03/04 07:23 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

The miracles of everyday life and everyday people are Real. I use the Jungian term 'synchronicity' which indicates a non-causal relationship between inner psychic events and outer physical events. The co-incidence of these factors seem to 'constellate' around avid seekers of GOD, and may very well be manifested through everyday, natural objects. It is the 'meaningful coincidence' of the inner and the outer, at a point of one's development which conveys a sense of the spiritual or 'Numinous' about it. One or more synchronistic events can and do convert previously materialistic people to spiritual people, and the fearful aspect is also a usual component to religious experiences. Theologian Rudolph Otto, who used the term 'Numinous,' that Jung picked up on, spoke of encounter with GOD as "The Mysterium Tremendum et Fascinans" - The Tremendous and Fascinating Mystery, the Tremendous aspect being reminiscent of the account of Moses bowing and covering his face in the Presence of the Lord in the 'burning bush.' This aspect strikes at the very root of one's human existence: life, death and That which transcends both. It is a Holy Awe rather than biologically-based fear.

Religious beings, like shamanistic beings who are said to be able to cross 'rainbow bridges,' can live their lives by synchronistic/miraculous events, which become for them 'spiritual manna.' The idea that 'man does not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of GOD,' is scriptural language for this process of living for, and eventually in, a lifestyle in which these miracles are finally recognized as being in every moment of our existence. I only saw them on psychedelics originally, then I began to 'seek,' and then to 'find' them more frequently. Over the years, and decades, it began to dawn that my entire life of awareness is life in a Living Presence which does connect things together - like the neuronal connections of a brain, only it is space-time itself which is connected thusly, and we are all a part of its fabric. The fabric - the space-time continuum - creation - is created in each moment by the Creator. Our failure to see it is our failure: our attachment to the physical plane, our sinful refusal to Be Godly, not GOD's fault for not providing each human with a special Revelation. Your cousin received grace. Peace be with you both.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Anonymous

Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2217066 - 01/03/04 07:34 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

:thumbup:

Well said as always.  Thanks for the invitation to the celebratory event.  I would have loved to be there. :smile:  I am glad to see you posting.  Your absence make this forum a poorer place to be.  No one has come close to replacing your words.

zerohero:  You should post more in here if you have time.  I think your insight and opinions would be nice. :smile:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: chodamunky]
    #2217115 - 01/03/04 07:56 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

In light of what you said about the event that took place, I am going to equate it with this very moment. Are you telling me these words I just typed in this very sentence could not have been replaced by any words? that I had no choice in replying to your what you have said? that I was bound to respond to you and say exactly what I'm saying now? I'm reading a book on philosophy right now and I just finished the Free Will chapter..

Ahh yes, Free Will is oft on my mind of late as well :wink:

Daba answered your question, in much the way I would. It's not that you had no choice in the matter, only that once the moment was reached and breeched...there is no other Way of occurence :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: trendal]
    #2217230 - 01/03/04 08:45 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

It's not that you had no choice in the matter, only that once the moment was reached and breeched...there is no other Way of occurence

that sounds rather contradictory, if had a choice in the matter, that means the outcome of my sentence could have been something else. Can you explain what you mean by "reached and breeched" and provide a logical argument to support it? When I wrote that sentence I erased what I typed several times, there were many choices I made of which words I finally decided to use, was all this just an illusion?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2217654 - 01/04/04 02:42 AM (18 years, 27 days ago)

God is who the bible says He is, and you have to accept Him on faith, or not at all.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: chodamunky]
    #2218050 - 01/04/04 08:37 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

chodamunky said:
When I wrote that sentence I erased what I typed several times, there were many choices I made of which words I finally decided to use, was all this just an illusion?




It doesn't matter how many choices you have or how many times you hit backspace and changed what you wrote. You may have a choice as to what actions you take and what thoughts you make, but that isn't what this is about. Whatever choices you make, they were going to happen as such. Every moment and movement that has ever occured before it inevitably lead up to the choice you made.

You may have considered what to do, what words to choose, even changing them, but it all was going to happen. We still have free will, I just decided to take my left elbow and swing it out just to see if I still could, but it was going to happen anyways because of what happened before it.  :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: ]
    #2218597 - 01/04/04 04:30 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Thank you.


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OfflineHidingInPlainSight
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2219069 - 01/04/04 09:19 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

The reason I was afraid to look out the window was because of how different the lights looked from normal car lights, or the moons light. It was almost as bright in the room as the lights off, and an important detail to add: The blinds were shut.


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2219156 - 01/04/04 10:08 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Don't you think the allmighty god who created and governs all of life on earth has better things to do besides shine a light in your window and call you on your cell?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2219175 - 01/04/04 10:24 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

ChiefThunderbong said:
Don't you think the allmighty god who created and governs all of life on earth has better things to do besides shine a light in your window and call you on your cell?




God is  :heartpump:.

Surely, love and compassion are meaningful things, and not a waste of time.


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2219198 - 01/04/04 10:44 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

chodamunky said:
When I wrote that sentence I erased what I typed several times, there were many choices I made of which words I finally decided to use, was all this just an illusion?




It doesn't matter how many choices you have or how many times you hit backspace and changed what you wrote. You may have a choice as to what actions you take and what thoughts you make, but that isn't what this is about. Whatever choices you make, they were going to happen as such. Every moment and movement that has ever occured before it inevitably lead up to the choice you made.

You may have considered what to do, what words to choose, even changing them, but it all was going to happen. We still have free will, I just decided to take my left elbow and swing it out just to see if I still could, but it was going to happen anyways because of what happened before it.  :grin:
Peace.




What happened before you swung out your elbow?


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2219224 - 01/04/04 11:00 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

so a coincidence is enough to convert people these days? What's the world coming to. Back in my day it took a lot of beating.


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OfflineHidingInPlainSight
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2220028 - 01/05/04 09:02 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

This was definately not just a coincidence... And, God can be in many places at one time.  :sun:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: chodamunky]
    #2220034 - 01/05/04 09:08 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

chodamunky said:
What happened before you swung out your elbow?




Well, I was posting, thinking about what I was saying, I felt the urge to do something that would be unexpected from the outside perspective, so I made the choice to take my elbow and fling it outwards...

I made the choice. But it was my prior choices that brought me to make this choice. If my thoughts hadn't followed the exact path that they did, I probably would have never have done it....

I'm not saying that we don't have choice. However, whatever we choose happened because of what happened before it...
Peace.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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OfflineHidingInPlainSight
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2220105 - 01/05/04 09:33 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ChiefThunderbong said:
Don't you think the allmighty god who created and governs all of life on earth has better things to do besides shine a light in your window and call you on your cell?




Everyone is special in the eyes of God. There is a reason he wanted to show himself to my cousin, and only God knows what that is.  :cool:


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2223022 - 01/06/04 02:10 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

ok, if I understand you correctly what you are saying is this: I am driving my car and I stop at a four-way intersection. I now have now have 3 choices, turn left, turn right, or go straight. But, the only reason I have these three choices is because earlier I made a choice to get inside my car, instead of say..riding my bike. So each of our choices leads us to another 'list' of possible choices. And each option on that list will inevitably lead me to another list of choices.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: chodamunky]
    #2223413 - 01/06/04 04:22 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

True, choices lead us to new possible choices... but I mean, it is a really complex thing. Fucking near infinite variables interacting everywhere every second...

We may be faced with a choice and everything, but the option we choose is going to be chose for a reason... what happened before made it so that we would lean towards whatever we choose.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2223665 - 01/06/04 06:04 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

I'm sure not special in God's eyes. He never shows his glory to me, never answers my prayers. Fuck your spotlig- er, I mean god.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2223834 - 01/06/04 07:21 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Everyone is special in the eyes of God.

That makes no sense. To be special means to be extraordinary; to stand out from the crowd.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Swami]
    #2223844 - 01/06/04 07:29 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

If such a thing were true than the world would not be the fucked up hell that it is.....if god cared he would make the world a better place, not shine lights into people's windows.


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Offlinecatalyst777
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Swami]
    #2223895 - 01/06/04 07:52 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Everyone is special in the eyes of God.

That makes no sense. To be special means to be extraordinary; to stand out from the crowd.




Perhaps he meant that everyone has value in the eyes of God. Some people use the word "special" to mean "of great importance".


--------------------
Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored.

Aldous Huxley


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2223928 - 01/06/04 08:14 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

I don't want to be negative, but it sounds like fear is his only God.

I think the only reason people decide to be Christian is because they don't know that there are other spiritual options out there. Why would you want to believe in the vengeful Christian God?




--------------------
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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Learyfan]
    #2223944 - 01/06/04 08:18 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

The bible doesn't describe God as only vengeful. God is also loving and merciful.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Learyfan]
    #2223946 - 01/06/04 08:18 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

I want nothing to do with any of this conversation. Sorry I even spoke.


Edited by Adom (01/06/04 08:24 PM)


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2223953 - 01/06/04 08:22 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
The bible doesn't describe God as only vengeful. God is also loving and merciful.



Like when he killed off all those innocent first-born sons of Egypt just cuz the pharaoh wouldn't free "his people." I'm amazed when people act say God doesn't pick sides, because he does just that throughout the Old Testament.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Learyfan]
    #2223956 - 01/06/04 08:24 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Why would you want to believe in the vengeful Christian God?



Fear. If you don't, your headed for an eternity of pain and torture. Or in past centuries because the church would torture and kill you if you didn't. Great quote, fear is your only god.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2223958 - 01/06/04 08:25 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Does the Christian God send people to burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow his stringent rules? That sounds like a vengeful God to me.

In my eyes, Christianity is all about kissing God's ass so that he doesn't send you to hell. Saying you love the Christian God is like saying you love the man who has a gun to your head and is threatening to blow your brains out.




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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Learyfan]
    #2223966 - 01/06/04 08:28 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Exactly.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Learyfan]
    #2223975 - 01/06/04 08:32 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Does the Christian God send people to burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow his stringent rules? That sounds like a vengeful God to me.

In my eyes, Christianity is all about kissing God's ass so that he doesn't send you to hell. Saying you love the Christian God is like saying you love the man who has a gun to your head and is threatening to blow your brains out.


[image]http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:XqiUKjSvAiYC:users.ipfw.edu/jehle/newman/heart7.gif[/image]




My understanding is that we all deserve to burn in hell for being the sinners that we are, but that these days, since the birth of Christ, we have been redeemed.

This means that we get to continue to be sinners (as if we can help it), but as long as we believe in Christ, we don't have to go to the hell we deserve, because God loves us.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2223991 - 01/06/04 08:37 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

God certainly dosn't love Africa or South America, maybe he only loves white people?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2224006 - 01/06/04 08:44 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Well, and this is where I make my "Book of Job" argument.  The one that SpecialEd doesn't like.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224011 - 01/06/04 08:45 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

The book of job is really the only part of the bible I've actually read parts of....but I still don't know what your trying to say.


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Edited by ChiefThunderbong (01/06/04 08:50 PM)


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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2224025 - 01/06/04 08:53 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...=&fpart=all

That's where me and SpecialEd discussed this. Since I already wrote it up there, my discussion about Job and how we don't really know everything that's going on behind the scenes, if you read it there, I don't have to repeat myself here. But you don't have to.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Learyfan]
    #2224172 - 01/06/04 09:58 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

...Then you think wrongly. I became a Christian at age 22, in 1976. I was pretty well-read in world religions, history of magickal traditions and had taught Yoga by then. I'm a bit more well-read now, and have had 29 more years to experience being 'in Christ.' I do not live in fear, I have much peace. Moreover, I have sought Wisdom, and GOD has supplied me with more than I ever expected as well as much more materially (home, career, recent inherited funds from surprise source), thereby illustrating to me the Truth in the dictate: "Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven and its righteousness, and all things will be added unto ye." I did not seek GOD to be rewarded - I sought GOD because GOD is the Ultimate Object of human existence and Union with GOD (Mysticism) is its own reward.

The Wrathful, Left Pillar of GOD's Nature and the Merciful Right Pillar of GOD's Nature are joined by the Central Pillar, as illustrated by the Kabbalistic Tree of Life. This map which belongs to Jewish Mysticism is helpful to the Christian as well. The Light of GOD is a consuming fire or a beatific vision - depending upon the condition of the human being. All that does not become Loving Kindness in a human being is burned away like dross being burned off of Gold when it is refined. All the evil, impurity, stupid selfishness that is far from the Divine Nature, dies. To the extent that one becomes transformed and identifies oneself with the "Inner Man" (St. Paul), the "indwelling Christ," one has Eternal Life ("I live, yet not I, Christ liveth in me.") If it is given to you to know, you have much to learn about what it means to be a Christian.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224221 - 01/06/04 10:16 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Let me restate the fact that I respect your beliefs, but I also don't understand them.

Quote:

My understanding is that we all deserve to burn in hell for being the sinners that we are, but that these days, since the birth of Christ, we have been redeemed.




See, now that's not right. How can you be a sinner before you've even done anything? Why would you believe this??

Quote:

but as long as we believe in Christ, we don't have to go to the hell we deserve, because God loves us.




That's just a round about way of saying God will send you to be burned and tortured for enternity for not doing what he says.

Why would God feel the need to get revenge on you? How could God do that to someone who is a part of him? How can you believe that a being who would do this "loves you"?



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OfflinePositronius
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224300 - 01/06/04 10:46 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

blech.


--------------------
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Learyfan]
    #2224382 - 01/06/04 11:32 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

To answer your questions, I would have to refer to the bible.  I was never good at quoting scripture from memory.  I just know what I believe, based on what has been taught to me.  I'm open minded about this subject for discussion, but I would have to show where it says it in the bible, and I can't do that, without taking a lot of time to go through the bible to reference the passages.  I don't have time.

Maybe someone here with better knowledge of the bible can answer these questions.    :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224522 - 01/07/04 12:40 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

So in your God's eyes we are guilty until proven innocent with this whole original sin thing right? Glad I'm made myself exempt from this religion a few years back...  :lol:


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2224542 - 01/07/04 12:46 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

You know one thing that puzzles me is that any extraordinary happenstance is credited towards a religion or "God."

Why can't those things be attributed to chance?


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: chodamunky]
    #2224562 - 01/07/04 12:52 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

No, actually, we're pretty much always guilty.  And I can tell you where it says that:  Romans.    :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224631 - 01/07/04 01:16 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

If that's what you believe, then I love you for it. I personally reject any God who would reject me. I see no reason why "God's" love wouldn't be unconditional.

Look in your heart Frog, not in the bible.




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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Learyfan]
    #2224666 - 01/07/04 01:23 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Leary, I don't believe God rejects any of us!  We reject Him!

Sorry to sound like a zealot.  I'm not in my real life.  *smiles)

I play pool in dives, I speed on the freeway like a demon, I say "fuck" often.  I don't care for bible-thumpers, because I prefer someone to walk the walk rather than talk the talk. 

Now I'm going to sound like a zealot  :grin: :

(Assume this to be true, for the purposes of this discussion)  God loves us so much that rather than damn us to eternity for being sinners, He sent His only son to be born and die a horrible death for us, so that we wouldn't have to be condemned.  All we have to do in return is accept Jesus as our saviour.  What's so bad about that???


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224707 - 01/07/04 01:47 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

How do you feel about original sin? It seems weird to me that humans, by nature, are sinners, and that we deserve to be damned to hell for it.

It also seems weird to me that God couldn't just allow sinners into heaven. If he is the one calling the shots, why did he set the system up so that he had to kill his only son for our salvation?


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"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
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OfflineFrog
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2224724 - 01/07/04 01:54 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

My understanding is that we are all sinners.  The "original sin" part comes from Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit in the garden.  Was bound to happen.  No one can "not" be a sinner and get into heaven, because we are all sinners. 

See, this is what people don't understand.  I will have to use me as an example.    :grin:

I am a sinner.  *hi*  I commit sins every day.  If the old testament was still in effect, I would be going to hell, no doubt. 

However!  This is what was bothersome to God.  NONE OF US WERE GOING TO HEAVEN!!!!

So, He changed the rules, hence, the New Testament.  He decided to send Jesus to die for our sins, so that we, His children (so to speak), could still go to heaven. 

See???  We are sinners, and He knows it.  We will never NOT be sinners.  He discovered we couldn't live by His rules.  He's like a parent. 

I have kids.  When one of my kids fucks up, I don't throw him into the traffic of on-coming cars.  I let him take his consequences, and I get him back on his feet.  I will do anything for one of my kids.  And supposedly God will do anything for us, including sending His son to die for us.

But we're not condemned any more.  God changed the rules because He knew we couldn't live by His rules all the time.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224729 - 01/07/04 01:57 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

So, He changed the rules, hence, the New Testament. He decided to send Jesus to die for our sins, so that we, His children (so to speak), could still go to heaven.




How were people judged in the days of the old testament? Surely everyone didn't go to hell.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2224752 - 01/07/04 02:05 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Yes!  Or, wait.  What's that place called where they went, and when Revelations occurs, they will get out?  Hades?  :nonono:

But those people are going to get a second chance.  I'm sure of that.  *looks around for someone who knows better who will disagree*


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224765 - 01/07/04 02:12 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

You may have answered this already, but,

What do you think hell is?

Is it mere separation from God or a place of physical torment?


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2224776 - 01/07/04 02:18 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

I've thought about that myself. I don't think I've ever studied what hell, specifically, is.

My own personal belief on what hell is is separation from God, for eternity.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224782 - 01/07/04 02:23 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

The true reason (playing along with biblical tangents) that we're all "sinners" is because we all hold ourselves to unrealistic and impossible standards--that is, to be Divine. Basically speaking, no human being will ever be TRULY sin-free, because the fact is, it's not in our human-nature. Christians STRIVE to be something they CANNOT truly be. They can do their absolute best, of course. Some can get pretty good at it. But the bottom line still remains--nobody will ever be "perfect". And I'm only speaking of "perfect" in terms of the way, a typical bible-thumpin christian would...that is..to be sin-free.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2224788 - 01/07/04 02:30 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Well, hell, skorvivo, I absolutely agree with you on that one!


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2224965 - 01/07/04 04:16 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

My understanding is that we all deserve to burn in hell for being the sinners that we are, but that these days, since the birth of Christ, we have been redeemed.



And you really believe this?!  You really think that all human beings are so wretched--so vile and evil--that we all deserve eternal torture?  I wouldn't wish that upon my worst enemy, and I certainly don't see why God would.  How low an opinion of humanity God must have... :nonono:


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2224998 - 01/07/04 04:33 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Well, think about it. Stealing, murder, lying, cheating, etc. etc. etc., ad nauseum. Assuming that God is perfect, we are way less than perfect, and we are sinners, and if God created us, then we deserve to burn in hell for not being perfect, as He is.

But why can't you get past that? Why can't you get to the part where God forgave us in spite of our sins, and is letting us go to heaven in spite of ourselves?

That's the part I don't understand. You guys don't understand me for believing the way I do. Well, I don't understand why anyone would not.

I had this conversation with my girlfriend once, and I think I posted about that conversation here. She's an agnostic. Or atheist. Or whatever it's called. She doesn't believe in God.

I said, "What if you die, and find out there's really a God? If you don't believe in Jesus, you will go to hell. But if you believe, just on faith, and there's a God, you will go to heaven. But if you believe, and there's not God, what did you lose by believing?"

I have never tried to talk anyone into believing the way I believe. I live and let live. But if I'm right about God, I'd like to see my friends go with me, so I tried talking her into it one night.

I don't see God as mean, or vengeful, or whatever. I see God as a loving father. Just because you guys see God the way you see Him, and therefore refuse to believe, doesn't mean that I am wrong for believing. It also doesn't mean that you are right about God.

Everyone sees God differently. What's interesting to me is ... Why do I see Him as a loving God, and I believe in Him, and you guys, who don't believe, see Him as a mean God? Very interesting.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2225021 - 01/07/04 04:49 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

It doesn't matter who you believe it or whatever you believe in--be it nothing. Because everybody goes back to the other side when they die.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2225148 - 01/07/04 07:30 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

The Adam, Eve and the serpent mythos (some of which parallels the Babylonian Gilgamesh epic which is older still) derives from the Old Testament. Jewish theology understands that humanity has 'an evil inclination,' or the 'yetzer hara,' but Christianity took this evil 'tendency' and expanded it theologically into the doctrine of 'Original Sin,' in which we are ALL inherently depraved from birth. This is supposedly the result (spiritual inheritance? Karma?) of the original sins of Adam and Eve. Christianity HAD to come up with this doctrine because it makes the appearance of Jesus Christ that much more critical. If we are ALL depraved, we ALL need a Redeemer - despite that verse in which Jesus says 'I have come not for the righteous, but for the sinners,' implying that there are humans who are righteous in the eyes of GOD.

GOD did not change the rules, men changed the doctrines and their understanding of 'how it all is.' The "rules" or Nature of GOD is not changeable, it is the perception and comprehension of mankind that changes. Being in Christ allows Grace, or the Holy Spirit to operate in the human heart, and this was available before Jesus Incarnated - not only to Jews, but to all who sought GOD and holinesss.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2225278 - 01/07/04 09:32 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Yes. God says, "I Am". He is the eternal, the unchanging. Men may twist their interpretations of his Word, and preach this, but this is no longer the Word of God, it is now the words of men. The distortions of God's Word run strong and leads to much confusion of the truth.

Some verses which directly reference the topic of righteous men: Matt 9:13, Mark 2:17, Mark 10:45, Luke 5:32, Luke 15:7. These are just a start, the answer is there for those who seek Christ.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: jpod]
    #2225410 - 01/07/04 10:46 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Thanks, Markos, and jpod, for posting.


--------------------
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: jpod]
    #2225417 - 01/07/04 10:52 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

jpod said:
Yes. God says, "I Am". He is the eternal, the unchanging. Men may twist their interpretations of his Word, and preach this, but this is no longer the Word of God, it is now the words of men. The distortions of God's Word run strong and leads to much confusion of the truth.




Right on.  :cool:


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2225605 - 01/07/04 12:13 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

"but this is no longer the Word of God, it is now the words of men."

There are many who feel its ALL been words of men


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Strumpling]
    #2225634 - 01/07/04 12:29 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Yes, I realize some believe that, but that is beside the point I was making. I was simply giving a response to those posts which I feel were lacking in knowledge of what the Bible actually says, and instead remarking on what is commonly taught the Bible says.

I am not looking to debate on the seperate subject of the origins of the Bible at this moment.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Strumpling]
    #2225635 - 01/07/04 12:29 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Blasphemer! Start a pyre...


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2226065 - 01/07/04 03:47 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Well, think about it. Stealing, murder, lying, cheating, etc. etc. etc., ad nauseum. Assuming that God is perfect, we are way less than perfect, and we are sinners, and if God created us, then we deserve to burn in hell for not being perfect, as He is.



Some say the glass is half-empty, others say it's half-full.  Besides, I've never murdered anyone.  I've never stolen anything.  I've never cheated on a test, or on a significant other, for that matter.  Granted, I do tend to lie sometimes, but if the people I lie to can forgive me, why should it matter?  And to me it sounds ridiculous to say that because we're not as perfect as God that we deserve to burn in hell.  :wtf:

Quote:

But why can't you get past that? Why can't you get to the part where God forgave us in spite of our sins, and is letting us go to heaven in spite of ourselves?



Why can't you get past the bad side of humanity and see that we are all good as well as bad.  And if God were to forgive us, he wouldn't need to send his son to die in order to do so.  He's all-powerful.  Why can't he just forgive us unconditionally?  Instead he has to say, "Ok, I'll forgive you for not being as perfect as me so you won't have to be burned and tortured for all eternity, but only if you read this here book and believe every last word of it without question, even the parts that contradict each other."

Quote:

That's the part I don't understand. You guys don't understand me for believing the way I do. Well, I don't understand why anyone would not.



Because if this all-powerful God were as forgiving as you say he is, then he wouldn't have created Hell in the first place, and wouldn't make such a shady deal for forgiving us.

Quote:

I said, "What if you die, and find out there's really a God? If you don't believe in Jesus, you will go to hell. But if you believe, just on faith, and there's a God, you will go to heaven. But if you believe, and there's not God, what did you lose by believing?"



What will I lose?  My pride, my dignity, my self-respect.  I don't take kindly to threats, even ones from an all-powerful God.

Quote:

I don't see God as mean, or vengeful, or whatever. I see God as a loving father. Just because you guys see God the way you see Him, and therefore refuse to believe, doesn't mean that I am wrong for believing. It also doesn't mean that you are right about God.



If God is not mean and vengeful, then why did he create Hell?  If I understand Christian theology well enough, then God created everything, and that would include Hell.  Why?  Whey can't he accept us along with our faults and forgive us unconditionally?  That's what you do when you love someone.  I'm able to do it.  Why can't God?

Quote:

Everyone sees God differently. What's interesting to me is ... Why do I see Him as a loving God, and I believe in Him, and you guys, who don't believe, see Him as a mean God? Very interesting.



I don't see God as mean.  I see the Judeo-Christian God as mean, and there's plenty of evidence in the Bible to back that up.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2226087 - 01/07/04 04:00 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Jesus didn't die to have man's sins forgiven, he died on the cross as a last scapegoat, to try and change the way Jewish society worked, to be once and for all rid of the blaming-one-individual-for-all-humanity's-sins routine. He was more of a political, a sage and a philosophical rebel than anything, if you ask me.
'The Bible' is not one book, it's two different ones. The Jewish God mentioned in the Tenach has a bit of a vengeful desert God how-bout-I-smack-you-some theme going on, but the God in the New Testament is different.
On hell: more informed (Christian, for instance) Bible readers, could you please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Hell is a mythological addition added later to Christianity, with no basis in the Bible.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2226095 - 01/07/04 04:02 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

On hell: more informed (Christian, for instance) Bible readers, could you please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Hell is a mythological addition added later to Christianity, with no basis in the Bible.



I believe there are references in the Book of Revelation to a "Lake of Fire," which awaits non-believers in the afterlife.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2226152 - 01/07/04 04:20 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

I can certainly understand why one would see the Christian God as mean. All of the things you have mentioned are certainly very valid viewpoints.

I don't expect many to agree with my perspective, but I do feel it is a valid comparison to a parent punishing a child for disobeying them. I imagine a child who is made to sit in the corner, or who is given a spanking, feels their punishment and parents are mean and unjust in most cases. However, a loving parent must discipline their child occasionally. A parent who has set rules for their child must take some sort of corrective action, ideally for the good of their child. Most people will agree with this.

Certainly we are like children when compared to an all-powerful and all-knowing God. How then, when we disobey the rules He has set for us, are we in a position to question the punishment? Thought it may seem harsh, it can only be we who are the ones who lack understanding, not Him. Is a child knowledgable enough to question their parent?


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: jpod]
    #2226164 - 01/07/04 04:23 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Sure, a parent may have a child sit in a corner or spank them as punishment. But we're talking about all eternity here. I imagine it wouldn't take very long in Hell for a sinner to learn their lesson. So then how come they still have to remain there for the rest of eternity? If a parent spanked their child for the rest of that child's life, I believe that would be considered severe child abuse.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2226184 - 01/07/04 04:32 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Like I said, a child really is not necessarily given to understand the the reasoning behind or the nature of their punishment. I will not pretend that I have all the answers or a full understanding of why this is the punishment God has chosen. As a mortal human being by definition I cannot understand the full nature of an infinite God. I do however have enough faith in Him to accept that if this is what He has chosen, then He has chosen it for a reason, and this is all I need to know. I would not expect a person without full faith in my God to be as accepting of this, however.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2226298 - 01/07/04 05:13 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

All of the major world religions contain teachings about Hell. The Old Testament writings do not much focus on individual post-mortem conditions - it is the condition of Israel as a whole that has precedence. The notion of 'Sheol' as a kind of shadowy post-mortem condition is mentioned but not explicated into complicated celestial and infernal hierarchies as the Catholics did, or reiterate "lake of fire" imagery from Matthew or John like Protestants like to do. The mention of the smoldering fires of "Gehenna," in the NT refers to a place where garbage was burned.

The Book of Daniel speaks of resurrection either to righteousness or to "contempt" (KJV), and illustrates the later Pharasaic notions that Jesus Himself picked up on, but again, there is no notion of a human being who is tortured eternally in burning brimstone (sulphur). Volcanic, sulphurous, underworld imagery would resonate with the common 1st century mentality who held to a flat Earth, a pre-Copernican 3-tiered cosmos which included a subterranean underworld, flat Earth at the center of God's universe, and a domed heavens in which the physical lights were confused with metaphysical Light of Heaven. In like manner, in the language of mythos, in which cosmic principles are anthropomorphized, it was reasonable to imagine a spiritualized corpus of Jesus, enthroned next to a Zeus-like YHVH, with a White Dove hovering between their forms. Fundamentalists of the 21st century still harbor pre-Copernican views, and mythic anthropomorphisms, and have complete tantrums when more learned folk refuse to believe in their childish literalisms. Hell may be quite real in the metaphysical sense. The religious mind recognizes that all Earthly phenomena have roots in Divine Reality. I for one reject any image of the metaphysical, while acknowledging the possibilities and living accordingly.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2226341 - 01/07/04 05:31 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Very insightful post, Markos...

Hell is something any Christian or Gnostic must come to terms with.

Thank you for giving me some food for thought.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: catalyst777]
    #2226384 - 01/07/04 05:52 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

The only "Hell" is the one us humans create--here on this planet.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: jpod]
    #2226413 - 01/07/04 06:02 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Like I said, a child really is not necessarily given to understand the the reasoning behind or the nature of their punishment.



Maybe so, but the fact is that some people are just bad parents, and both child and outsider can see that. Spanking may be ok, but beating a child senseless is clearly not just punishment. Granted, if there is a God, then he/she/it is beyond our understanding, but if that's the case, then it's useless to argue over whether he/she/it is mean or forgiving, because we can never know. For all you know, God could be a sadistic asshole.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2226460 - 01/07/04 06:19 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

"The only "Hell" is the one us humans create--here on this planet."

and I'd add that the only "Heaven" is the one we could build right here on this planet


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2226641 - 01/07/04 07:18 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Maybe so, but the fact is that some people are just bad parents, and both child and outsider can see that.  Spanking may be ok, but beating a child senseless is clearly not just punishment.




I certainly agree that as adults, we can see clearly that this would not be just punishment.  As applied to the previous posts however, I still believe that we are not on level with God and are therefore unfit to deem whatever punishment he may have as unfair.

Quote:

Granted, if there is a God, then he/she/it is beyond our understanding, but if that's the case, then it's useless to argue over whether he/she/it is mean or forgiving, because we can never know.  For all you know, God could be a sadistic asshole.




While I do believe that the full nature of God is beyond our understanding, my faith in Him also leads me to believe that parts of His nature have been revealed by His Word, i.e. the Bible.  It tells me that He is love, not that He is a "sadistic asshole".  I don't have the answers to all of the why's and how's, but I have faith in the truth of this.

BTW, I hope I am not coming across as argumentative, this certainly is not my intention.  I am simply trying to let my point of view be clearly known to whoever may be interested.  I respect all viewpoints though I may disagree.  :smile:


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: jpod]
    #2226656 - 01/07/04 07:28 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

I certainly agree that as adults, we can see clearly that this would not be just punishment. As applied to the previous posts however, I still believe that we are not on level with God and are therefore unfit to deem whatever punishment he may have as unfair.



It just seems to me like a cop-out to go with the old "God works in mysterious ways," argument. I mean, sure we can't fully understand it, but we have a thing called reason, which allows us to have a sense of fairness. To say that because we are not on God's level(IMO we are and don't realize it) that we can't say his judgements are unfair is bullshit. Besides, children can sometimes be right about their parents being unfair. It think you give children far too little credit.
Quote:

While I do believe that the full nature of God is beyond our understanding, my faith in Him also leads me to believe that parts of His nature have been revealed by His Word, i.e. the Bible. It tells me that He is love, not that He is a "sadistic asshole". I don't have the answers to all of the why's and how's, but I have faith in the truth of this.



That same book also tells you that he murdered all the first-born of Egypt, that he sends people to Hell if they don't believe in him, and that he's homophobe. Sounds like an asshole to me.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2226757 - 01/07/04 08:27 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

silversoul: Why can't you get past the bad side of humanity and see that we are all good as well as bad. And if God were to forgive us, he wouldn't need to send his son to die in order to do so. He's all-powerful. Why can't he just forgive us unconditionally? Instead he has to say, "Ok, I'll forgive you for not being as perfect as me so you won't have to be burned and tortured for all eternity, but only if you read this here book and believe every last word of it without question, even the parts that contradict each other."

Actually, we only go to hell now for rejecting CHrist, not for being bad. God DOES accept us, in spite of our imperfections. '

You're lucky that I'm not God! I'm much less tolerant with lying, cheating and stealing!!!


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2226796 - 01/07/04 08:50 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Would you prefer I falsely claim to have absolute knowledge? I freely and openly admit that I do not know everything, but have faith in my belief that God does. My sense of reason is perfectly fine and intact, but I will not attempt to impose it on such an area of which I do not have full knowledge. Do you honestly believe that you possess enough knowledge that your sense of reason is more qualified than anyone else's to make a decision in every single situation in life?


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2226939 - 01/07/04 10:19 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Actually, we only go to hell now for rejecting CHrist, not for being bad. God DOES accept us, in spite of our imperfections. '



Define "rejecting." I have no problem with Jesus. He was a good man, a nice guy, and very wise. He seems like the kind of guy I'd like to chill with. I just don't happen to believe he's the one and only Son of God. Also, I don't see why our fate for the rest of eternity would rest on how we feel towards one particular guy.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: jpod]
    #2226955 - 01/07/04 10:28 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

jpod said:
Would you prefer I falsely claim to have absolute knowledge? I freely and openly admit that I do not know everything, but have faith in my belief that God does.



When we are children, we often think our parents know everything, only to find out later in life just how little they know. Perhaps it is the same with God?

Quote:

My sense of reason is perfectly fine and intact, but I will not attempt to impose it on such an area of which I do not have full knowledge. Do you honestly believe that you possess enough knowledge that your sense of reason is more qualified than anyone else's to make a decision in every single situation in life?



No I don't. But when we talk about God and heaven and hell, we are talking about things for which there is no evidence anyway, so no one is really qualified to speak about them except in a theoretical sense. Neither of us knows that there is a God or heaven or hell. We are talking about concepts here, and to say that I'm not in a position to judge God's decisions because I'm inferior to him is bullshit because none of us even knows if God exists in the first place. How do you know God isn't a moron?


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2226996 - 01/07/04 10:55 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

I absolutely agree that none of us can physically prove God, Heaven, Hell, our own souls, or any other spiritual realm at all.  So of course we are speaking theoretically in that sense.  I thought that was assumed already.  I agree that no man can prove God exists or does not exist with enough evidence to make every person believe either way.  Therefore, whatever we choose, of course can only be a belief, not indisputable fact.  I accept this, which is my I have repeatedly referred to 'my beliefs'.  Keep this in mind when you read what I say.  We are not in opposition here.  So you must keep in mind when you refer theoretically to my God, the God I speak of, that He is all-powerful and all-knowing.  Following such theory, it is easy to see why I would believe God is not a "moron".

Anyways, you are obviously an intelligent person, and seek your own truths and beliefs.  I wish you peace with them.  :smile:


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2227124 - 01/07/04 11:51 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Actually, we only go to hell now for rejecting CHrist, not for being bad. God DOES accept us, in spite of our imperfections. '



Define "rejecting." I have no problem with Jesus. He was a good man, a nice guy, and very wise. He seems like the kind of guy I'd like to chill with. I just don't happen to believe he's the one and only Son of God. Also, I don't see why our fate for the rest of eternity would rest on how we feel towards one particular guy.




"Rejecting" as in not believing that Jesus was born and died for our sins. It's really simple. And I apologize, but I didn't make the rules. It seems harsh to me, too, but it's simple. Accept, on faith, that Jesus was born and died for our sins, or go to hell. After that, it's a piece of cake.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2227197 - 01/07/04 07:08 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

"Rejecting" as in not believing that Jesus was born and died for our sins. It's really simple. And I apologize, but I didn't make the rules. It seems harsh to me, too, but it's simple. Accept, on faith, that Jesus was born and died for our sins, or go to hell. After that, it's a piece of cake.



What if I told you that you that you have to accept, on faith, that I am God, and that you must worship me, or else you'll go to hell? Would you believe me?


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2227681 - 01/08/04 09:52 AM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Sure, a parent may have a child sit in a corner or spank them as punishment.  But we're talking about all eternity here.  I imagine it wouldn't take very long in Hell for a sinner to learn their lesson.  So then how come they still have to remain there for the rest of eternity?  If a parent spanked their child for the rest of that child's life, I believe that would be considered severe child abuse.




Silversoul7: The bible says (I'm non-denominational by choice, but parents are baptist, I go by the Bible.) anyone who has heard about God and chooses not to ask him to come into and be in control of their life, will go to hell for all eternity because him coming into your life and saving you is free, and turning that opportunity down is obsurd. It's kind of like someone saying, "Take this $100 or be shot.." and you not taking the $100 and getting shot. Why not take a free gift, and live forever in Heaven? Even though some may not believe in it, why not do it anyways, you aren't losing anything! And what if in the end, you find out there is a God, and you passed up that free opportunity.  :shocked:

:sun:


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2228030 - 01/08/04 01:05 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

How can you take something, not believing in it, and get eternal Heaven as your reward? That just doesn't make sense to me.

Then again, most literal interpretations of the Bible don't make sense to me. I mean, how many times have you struggled to explain something with words?

Seriously, now. Someone has a mindblowing experience, say on some mushrooms, and they go up to someone that has never had mushrooms or any parallel experiences. At a loss of words to accurately describe the experience?

Now... if anyone happened to experience God, encountered Him (if he is even a seperate entity as is the literal interpretation), how the hell would they explain it to others who haven't? Combine that with thousands of years of people fucking around with the writings that numerous people did, all these people who haven't truely had the experience spreading what they think it means and using it as a control device and others using it as this and that and that and this....

As usual, it isn't the words that are carrying the meaning, it is the intentions running through them. Read in between the lines, look at things from different perspectives, don't jump to any conclusions or assumptions...

Hehe, here is a salt packet, take it, Heaven is now yours.
Peace.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2228040 - 01/08/04 01:10 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

How can you take something, not believing in it, and get eternal Heaven as your reward? That just doesn't make sense to me.


That's the thing. We really don't have any proof that God exists, and that Jesus was His son. That's why we have to go by "faith" alone. And once we accept Jesus as our saviour, we have to live as Christians. (No, not like the ones who joined the crusades or killed witches.)


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2228177 - 01/08/04 02:08 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
How can you take something, not believing in it, and get eternal Heaven as your reward? That just doesn't make sense to me.


That's the thing. We really don't have any proof that God exists, and that Jesus was His son. That's why we have to go by "faith" alone. And once we accept Jesus as our saviour, we have to live as Christians. (No, not like the ones who joined the crusades or killed witches.)




But faith IS believing in something.

I can see living the good life, and all, but I can't see putting faith in something that we have no way of knowing either way. If someone walked up to me and said that Bob Dole has superior mind powers, and that if I believe in this and live accordingly, that I will go to Heaven, I'm not going to believe in it. There is no difference between this and God.
Peace.


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Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2228257 - 01/08/04 02:33 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

ledzepln86 said:
Silversoul7: The bible says (I'm non-denominational by choice, but parents are baptist, I go by the Bible.) anyone who has heard about God and chooses not to ask him to come into and be in control of their life, will go to hell for all eternity because him coming into your life and saving you is free, and turning that opportunity down is obsurd. It's kind of like someone saying, "Take this $100 or be shot.." and you not taking the $100 and getting shot.



Ah, so you admit that God is threatening me.  I see...

Quote:

Why not take a free gift, and live forever in Heaven? Even though some may not believe in it, why not do it anyways, you aren't losing anything! And what if in the end, you find out there is a God, and you passed up that free opportunity.  :shocked:

:sun:



I choose not to live my life based on fear, thank you very much.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2228267 - 01/08/04 02:36 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
How can you take something, not believing in it, and get eternal Heaven as your reward? That just doesn't make sense to me.


That's the thing. We really don't have any proof that God exists, and that Jesus was His son. That's why we have to go by "faith" alone. And once we accept Jesus as our saviour, we have to live as Christians. (No, not like the ones who joined the crusades or killed witches.)



So I have to have faith in something for which there is no proof, or else I'm doomed. Kinda reminds me of the book 1984, where they keep telling the guy that 2+2=5 if they want it to be, and after enough torture, he actually believes it. God sure is sounding like a major asshole here.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2228271 - 01/08/04 02:38 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

I am not even going to dignify your analogy with a response.    :shake:


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2228280 - 01/08/04 02:41 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
I am not even going to dignify your analogy with a response.    :shake:



Why not?  Seems reasonable enough to me.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2228299 - 01/08/04 02:46 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

You guys, you're comparing belief in Bob Dole's superior mind powers and going to heaven, with belief in God and Jesus and going to heaven.  It doesn't work for me.  If you're trying to make a point, please make a better one.  I can't argue this one.  Or explain the point you're trying to make. 

The difference, to me, seems so obvious, that I just can't bring myself to practice my typing skills on this one.  :lol:


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2228319 - 01/08/04 02:51 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

It seems so obvious to you, but you obviously can't say why it's obvious. I think the thing is that this analogy shows just how ridiculous your beliefs seem to us, and you don't want to think your beliefs are ridiculous, so you claim it's a dumb analogy. Sorry to be an asshole here, but I just don't see why it's a bad analogy, and if you can show me why it is, I'd be much obliged.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2228364 - 01/08/04 03:02 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

I am getting your point, and I am not saying it's a dumb analogy. I'm saying it's an obvious analogy, one not worth refuting. So I was hoping if there was a deeper point you were making, make it, because sometimes I have difficulty reading in-between the lines. Otherwise, if the analogy clearly states the point you are trying to make, I get it, but I think it's so obvious that I don't need to practice my typing skills by refuting it myself.

I don't think your beliefs are ridiculous, silversoul. I don't think anyone's belief's on this forum are ridiculous. Everyone here seems pretty intelligent to me, for the most part. If you really believed that Bob Doles' brain would get you into heaven, I would have serious doubts about your intelligence, but I know you were just making a point, or supporting firework's point.

And I can actually see how it would seem silly to someone that I would believe in God, of whom you think there is no concrete proof. Based on my life experiences, and my reasoning, and studies, I have chosen to believe in God.


--------------------
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2228374 - 01/08/04 03:05 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Let me put it this way: I am the one and only Son of God. Jesus is a false idol. Worship me on faith alone and you shall be rewarded in the hereafter. If you do not, you will be banished to eternal torture in the Lake of Fire. So what's it gonna be? Me or Jesus? You willing to risk eternal damnation to follow Jesus?


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2228392 - 01/08/04 03:11 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Are you the anti-christ? j/k.

If you come to me out of the blue, the way you are right now, and say what you say, I'm not even going to give you a second thought.

If you had been around for a while, performing miracles, doing good deeds, etc., and then claimed you were the son of God, I might have to ask around about you.

But see, what's difficult about arguing this point is that it's not real. We could argue "what if" all day, but it's kind of pointless because the "what ifs" aren't real. You're not the son of God.

If your point is that my beliefs seem ridiculous to you because I have nothing concrete by which to support my beliefs, I get your point. You have a right not to believe what I believe.

(To quote fireworks): Peace


--------------------
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2228394 - 01/08/04 03:11 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
You guys, you're comparing belief in Bob Dole's superior mind powers and going to heaven, with belief in God and Jesus and going to heaven.  It doesn't work for me.  If you're trying to make a point, please make a better one.  I can't argue this one.  Or explain the point you're trying to make. 





What I am saying is that my mind doesn't see the difference. The fact that so many more people believe in God as he is presented in Christianity rather than Bob Dole's superior mind powers (I'm probably the only one, but I only enertain it as well, creative enertainment... I'm insane like that. :nut:) doesn't make it more reasonable to believe in.

I mean, also that the concept of God is something that has been carried for so fucking long. I see everything as being a concept. The concept of what love is, etc... I see "God" as being a collection of thoughts, an idea, that has gone through a hell of a lot of people, considering what this particular concept entails.

Consider why a lot of people approach pondering this concept. It is usually relative to some unknown. Why are we here? What was before? What will be after? What is the meaning, the point? A lot of what makes up the concept of God has been contributed to by people asking these questions, and I can't help but feel that a lot of it is just someone patching over these unknowns, not being able to bear the abyss and trying to "solve" it by putting some newspapers over it...

Myself, I don't see how we can begin to fill in this abyss, by just finding something to believe... I sort of consider evolution becoming gradually more aware, working our way back to that unknown, to solve the puzzle....

Of course, to believe in Bob Dole, you don't need any chasm jumping, when you see him telepathicly bake some cookies, seeing is believing. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2228410 - 01/08/04 03:15 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

I will say one more thing in this thread, which is that I believe silversoul is absolutely right when he questions people when they claim something on faith. People need to understand why they have faith. Far too many people don't question what they are told and end up holding hollow beliefs. This can only lead to an empty faith based on empty shell made of lack of reason. How can this be a secure faith?

For many years I rejected the Christian faith. I assure you I do not hold my beliefs just because someone told me it was true, or I am scared of Hell, or any such thing. I have studied very extensively in many varied areas of relion, philosophy, and sciences. And while I agree that no amount of studies can show a proof of God either way, one who is seeking knowledge can certainly find evidences that may point them in one direction or another, and may use their rational brain to ponder and interpret these evidences as they may. This is really all we as humans can do with the gifts we have, to seek answers which do not exist in a form we can sense with our physical selves.

Certainly each one of us will be moved by various evidences in differing ways and amounts. Therefore we each must seek the evidences which move ourselves and draw from them. This reasoning is where our solidly based internal faith comes from, regardless of what that faith may be, whether you believe in God or not, or even if you believe you are a god. How can a faith without reason be a true faith, when it is baseless?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2228412 - 01/08/04 03:15 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Let me put it this way:  I am the one and only Son of God.  Jesus is a false idol.  Worship me on faith alone and you shall be rewarded in the hereafter.  If you do not, you will be banished to eternal torture in the Lake of Fire.  So what's it gonna be?  Me or Jesus?  You willing to risk eternal damnation to follow Jesus?




We all know that it is ME who is Jesus. You must have all forgotten since I took down the avatar.. what can I say, Disco Stu is one cool dude. :grin:

Disco Stu Likes Disco music.  :laugh:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2228414 - 01/08/04 03:16 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Are you the anti-christ? j/k.

If you come to me out of the blue, the way you are right now, and say what you say, I'm not even going to give you a second thought.

If you had been around for a while, performing miracles, doing good deeds, etc., and then claimed you were the son of God, I might have to ask around about you.



How do you know I haven't done all these things?

Quote:

But see, what's difficult about arguing this point is that it's not real. We could argue "what if" all day, but it's kind of pointless because the "what ifs" aren't real. You're not the son of God.



And how do you know this?

Quote:

If your point is that my beliefs seem ridiculous to you because I have nothing concrete by which to support my beliefs, I get your point. You have a right not to believe what I believe.



It's not that I think your beliefs are ridiculous. It's your reasons for why you think I should believe the same that are ridiculous. That's the point I'm making here.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: jpod]
    #2228422 - 01/08/04 03:18 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

jpod, I totally agree with you.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2228437 - 01/08/04 03:21 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

It's not that I think your beliefs are ridiculous. It's your reasons for why you think I should believe the same that are ridiculous. That's the point I'm making here.

What reasons have I given that you should believe the same as I believe?  I think I've given the reasons that I believe the way I do, but I haven't said that anyone has to believe the way I do.  :confused:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2228463 - 01/08/04 03:29 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

You said earlier in this thread something like:

Quote:

What if you die, and find out there's really a God? If you don't believe in Jesus, you will go to hell. But if you believe, just on faith, and there's a God, you will go to heaven. But if you believe, and there's not God, what did you lose by believing?



This is what I'm addressing. It's a very common Christian argument, known in philosophy as Pasqual's wager. I'm addressing where that argument falls short.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2228509 - 01/08/04 03:44 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Yes, I know what that argument is. I think it is supposed to be a bad one, too. I mainly brought it up because it just sort of makes sense to me.

This is probably like beating a dead horse at this point, isn't it? I really have nothing against you or anyone for not believing.

Here's what it is, for me, I think: I, personally, wish everyone would believe because I basically like people and if I'm going to heaven, because of my beliefs, then I want everyone to have my beliefs so that they can go with me. It's more of a selfish thing, I suppose.

But I'm not saying that you are going to hell, either. I stopped believing that way a long time ago. I figured out that maybe "God" is not the only name by which God goes, and maybe there are things I don't know. So how presumptious of me to say I'm going to heaven and you're not.

I know I'm sounding contradictory right now. But basically it's my fundamental Christian beliefs that were taught to me that you have to believe that Christ was born and died for your sins so that you could go to heaven. Well, I believe that.

But I am not going to be the one pointing out who is going to hell, because I could be wrong. Or the beliefs I've been taught could be wrong. Maybe the bible was interpreted incorrectly in some aspects.

So I will wait and see what happens, and in the meantime, live the way I think I'm supposed to live, based on my beliefs.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Frog]
    #2228579 - 01/08/04 04:07 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

I think Jesus's true message which got warped and misinterpreted as it was handed down from people to people to generation to generation and so on; was that we are ALL God's sons and daughters. That God, is our father in the Universe.

If you know your Bible correctly, you'll know that there is a HUGE gap in Jesus's life...from when he was a baby....till he was in his 30's.
I dont think Jesus was just BORN like he was acting in his 30's. He obviously grew up around people who had major influence on his views and so forth...and well, geuss what? He did...The Nag-Hammadi scrolls indicate that Jesus was either an Essene, a student of the Essenes, or at least associated very closely with this sect (which was said to have believed in reincarnation) during the ?lost? or ?silent? years of his life between the ages of 12 and 30.

THEN, he found the inner TRUTH...and shared it, and spread it around with all good intentions and so on...but the Officials and Authorities of the land was intimidated and scared that Jesus was going to overthrow their religion and well...the rest is history.


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2228824 - 01/08/04 05:50 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

you don't need any chasm jumping

As I coined that term, please remit a $0.10 royalty everytime that appears in print. PM me for an address.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: Swami]
    #2228848 - 01/08/04 06:02 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Can't I just chasm jump the payment?

Um, either put it on God's tab or charge the bill to Bob Dole, thank you very much.

No! He heard us use his name! He just told me to kill all of you! *screams horribly*

:nut:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2228859 - 01/08/04 06:05 PM (18 years, 22 days ago)

Nice thoughts, Skorpivo.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2233453 - 01/10/04 05:36 PM (18 years, 20 days ago)

Actually, it was John the Baptizer whom some believed was an Essene, though this is largely rejected. Jews belonging to the Pharasees - the sect that Jesus is most closely aligned with (as opposed to the saducees who did NOT believe in a Resurrection), used water ablutions as well for ritual cleansing. Jesus was not an Essene. Neither did He travel more than 200 miles from the place of His birth in Roman-occupied Judea like some fanciful writers have suggested (e.g., Levi's 'The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ'). BTW, transmigration of souls also called metempsychosis or reincarnation remained in Christian doctrine until 530 A.D. when it was rejected at the Council of Chalcedon, because it afforded the believer too much time for salvation.

I disagree that we are all 'Children of God.' Not every apparently human being Is truly human in the fullest sense of the word. Below the common self-centered a**hole on the street there are evidently demonic entities in human garb. They themselves do not usually regard themselves as 'demons,' sometimes they have inklings as to their non-humanity but claim to be of superior species. My own singular measure of being human is Compassion. The more Compassionate, the more profoundly human. The more Compassionate, the more suffused with Divinity as well.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2233544 - 01/10/04 06:25 PM (18 years, 20 days ago)

Firstly, I suspect Biblical history and such is just so warped and skewed as it got handed down to people to other people and to other people and then to generation to generation over thousands of years....I dont think people in those times necessarilly had their shit super-organized and well-structered, and so on....but whatever, I could be wrong--but thats the thing, nobody TODAY can really say for sure who's right or who's wrong, UNLESS they are immortal and actually lived in those times and in the place of those times and experienced it at firsthand. So, eh -shrugs- whatever.

As for the Children of God...
In my belief of reincarnation, everybody who incarnates here in this plane of existence, the 3rd dimension, CAME from the other side, the 4th Dimension. Every soul is a part of God. So despite what misfortunes and grievances and harrowing lifetimes a soul goes through in their incarnation on this planet Earth that led them to become a less compassionate human than they COULD have been, the fact remains, they are still a part of God. Do you think God just disowns every soul who makes a mistake and goes down a spiral of bad karma and energy because they were too weak stay strong and be good? If your child gets busted using drugs and gets sent to jail and then becomes an even worse criminal just by being locked up amongst the morbid wolves of society and spirals down a life of uncompassionate hatred and crime, he is still your child, regardless. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Sure, you could "disown" him, but thats an illusion created by law. He's still your child and thus a part of you. No human being was born pure evil or uncompassionate. Not everbody is fortunate enough to have a strong soul insofar as to cope honorably with their trials and tribulations, and refrain from succumbing to the Dark Side.


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Re: From athiest to christian... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2233553 - 01/10/04 06:33 PM (18 years, 20 days ago)

The assholes are still children of God. I have recently been in a situation where someone is drinking and lying and generally being a shit. Actually, he's an asshole, but he used to be a good person. I think facets of his personality, that he has kept hidden, are coming out. He can no longer hide them. He needs help.

But even though he's acting like an asshole, it's only because of problems he has for which he needs counseling. These problems are interefering with his ability to act like a good human being. He is lacking in compassion somewhat, but he's still a child of God. I think God still loves him. Everyone is just in different states of being human, I think. There's always hope for each of us.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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