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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5151514 -

While someone confesses a false gospel, (such as salvation conditioned on the sinner), should be judged to be currently unregenerate and lost, this does not mean they will remain that way, as they might be granted repentance and belief of the truth.

So repentance is not an act of the individual? It is something that they have no choice in? To me, from you statement, this is what you are saying.

This a very curious use of the word repentance, used in this way it makes the verb, repent, transitory. With the repenter as the object. Very curious, I'm guessing very hard for most people to think this way, it is for me.

I'm guessing then from the point of repentance, that all your actions would be granted, not just repentance. This is what is confusing. You choose to word your arguments to defend the lack of volition in a way the person reading them would think that you do indeed have some control over your life.

Should we in reading what you say, every action you describe that is not qualified with the statement,

As has been granted to me

, assume that it has?

Is it safe to say then, if you would say,"I ran.", we should interpret it to mean "I have been run."?

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: falcon]
    #5151746 -

So repentance is not an act of the individual? It is something that they have no choice in? To me, from you statement, this is what you are saying....

Since fallen man is entirely inclined away from God and is in bondage to sin, and has no capability within himself to understand spiritual truth, every aspect of salvation is a unilateral action of God on the chosen vessel of mercy. We read only sinners are saved. But unregenerated man does not see himself as a sinner. And only those who are thirsting are given the water of life. Man is so dead that he is not thirsting, and he is not heavy laden with sin. It takes conviction by the Holy Spirit to bring a man into the truth of his own sinnership. Only after a man has been stripped of his own self-righteousness, can the truth of the righteousness of God be revealed by the gospel. Sinners do not bring "decisions", they do not bring anything at all, they are broken and know that they only deserve damnation. From this point the sole and only ground of righteousness is revealed, which is the righteousness of Christ alone, apart from any good deeds done by a sinner. So a man does repent and believe, but these things themselves are gifts, in fact the entire process of salvation is a free gift. This is true love, that a person deserving nothing but wrath, is given unconditional love. Faith, repentance, ect. are not conditions to be met. These things are gifts in order that God may reveal His love to His people, and they may know who He is, and His Son, and His Spirit.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5151760 -

By all means possible, avoid me, and please take your brethren with you.
As a matter of fact, it is precisely because of people like you that I hesitate to identify myself as a Christian to others, lest they assume that I believe as you do. Perhaps then 'Gnostic' will have to remain my appellation, since it immediately distinguishes my stance from those with your's. Remember this: It is not your appointed task to judge, but to love. The Bible is for personal guidance, not for condemnation of others. Christian?! No. 'Biblian' maybe.

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/07/06 11:38 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5152023 -

fivepointer said:
Since fallen man is entirely inclined away from God and is in bondage to sin, and has no capability within himself to understand spiritual truth, every aspect of salvation is a unilateral action of God on the chosen vessel of mercy.


This is what makes arguing with this type of Christian so futile. Rather than admit that there is even a remote possibility that you could be wrong, you place yourself in some higher echelon of existence. Your sole defense is that you are part of some special "club" who has had these divine mysteries made plain as day to them. It is time you realized that not everything you say is God speaking through you, but rather your ego. I may go so far as to recommend a healthy dose of psychedelics to treat this, but at this point it may take a miracle to bring you out of your hole.


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5152122 -

"from a valley in the rhineland
to the deserts of iran
from a village they called Jonestown
to a meeting of the clan
nobody knows where the strangers will go
and oh, oh, oh you know
they'll always be there
they'll always be there

and they comes when they're summonned
and they do what must be done
and they live for the movement
they take pride in being one
of the lucky and the chosen
and the perfect men
and the strangers
are with us again"


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5152195 -

I know for a fact that the only way to deal with closed minds and empty hearts is to ignore them. I find people who harbor hate for their fellow man so offensive that I find it hard to take my own advice. When I get over my anger at such behavior I can take pity on one who lives in such fear. Who feels so worthless within themselves that they must put themselves at the mercy of a vengeful, wrathful, god and condemn the innocent in his name so as to feel some small security. Still I feel it's important to confront them as they can, like a virus infect the innocent and unwary.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5152196 -

Every true convert does have the gospel revealed to them, they are translated from darkness and death, to light and life.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5152269 -

I agree, but I lose patience with lunatics.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5152285 -

Dear YHVH-1,
May the Stark Fist of Removal make its presence known to dis nutter in a most unfashionable manner.
Amen.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5153097 -

I am pretty sure that fivepointer is actually a computer program, a bot. Makes sense to me.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5153217 -

NRS Genesis 18:26 And the LORD said, "If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will forgive the whole place for their sake."

NRS Psalm 32:5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not hide my iniquity; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD," and you forgave the guilt of my sin.Selah

NRS Lamentations 3:42 We have transgressed and rebelled, and you have not forgiven.

NRS Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you;
NRS Matthew 6:15 but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

NRS Mark 1:4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

NRS Luke 5:32 I have come to call not the righteous but sinners to repentance."

NRS Luke 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

NRS Wisdom 19:13 The punishments did not come upon the sinners without prior signs in the violence of thunder, for they justly suffered because of their wicked acts; for they practiced a more bitter hatred of strangers.

NRS Ezekiel 18:20 The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own

NRS Ezekiel 33:12 And you, mortal, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not save them when they transgress; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, it shall not make them stumble when they turn from their wickedness; and the righteous shall not be able to live by their righteousness when they sin.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5153271 -

BlueCoyote, please elaborate on the verses you have posted.

BTW, the book of Wisdom is not part of the scriptures and should not be considered.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5153296 -

Let me try:

NRS Genesis 18:26 And the LORD said, "If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will forgive the whole place for their sake."
Shows, that the others will be forgiven too, no matter what they believe. -> non exclusive

NRS Psalm 32:5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not hide my iniquity; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD," and you forgave the guilt of my sin.Selah
Someone (not nescessary a christ) turned to g*d and he was forgiven.

NRS Lamentations 3:42 We have transgressed and rebelled, and you have not forgiven.
Those who do 'bad' will not been forgiven, whoever they are.

NRS Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you;
NRS Matthew 6:15 but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
That is a rule for everyone. -> not exclusive.

NRS Mark 1:4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
He came to tell you, that you CAN do something for forgiveness. BUT, you can not FORCE forgiveness ! (Contrary to Jewish believes)

NRS Luke 5:32 I have come to call not the righteous but sinners to repentance."
If the sinners would all predestined end in hell, he would have no need to come to them.

NRS Luke 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Only possible, if the person has the possibility to change.

NRS Ezekiel 18:20 The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own
Everyone is responsible for himself. No predestination from the genes or anything else. The only thing that counts is the 'sin'.

NRS Ezekiel 33:12 And you, mortal, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not save them when they transgress;
(...and further do the sin)

and as for the wickedness of the wicked, it shall not make them stumble when they turn from their wickedness;
(...as soon as they turn from it !)

and the righteous shall not be able to live by their righteousness when they sin.
Sin is the momentum that counts. Nothing else !

I think, people of all times, mix up predestination with forseeing. There is a difference !


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5153334 -

Let me try:

NRS Genesis 18:26 And the LORD said, "If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will forgive the whole place for their sake."
Shows, that the others will be forgiven too, no matter what they believe. -> non exclusive

"..And he said, I will not destroy it for ten?s sake. "
He could not find ten righteous in that city. The only reason why this world is not immediately destroyed is because He has an election of grace in this world that must be saved in time. Only the elect's sake holds back this destruction. Sodom was utterly demolished, men, women and children were rained on with brimstone and fire out of heaven. This verse does not teach others will be forgiven, no matter what they believe.

NRS Psalm 32:5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not hide my iniquity; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD," and you forgave the guilt of my sin.Selah
Someone (not nescessary a christ) turned to g*d and he was forgiven.

Only through Christ can anyone be forgiven. Every forgiven person WILL be converted and believe the gospel.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:
Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

NRS Lamentations 3:42 We have transgressed and rebelled, and you have not forgiven.
Those who do 'bad' will not been forgiven, whoever they are.

The problem is everyone is "bad".
Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

NRS Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you;
NRS Matthew 6:15 but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
That is a rule for everyone. -> not exclusive.

What you are saying is the good deed of forgiving others is considered in whether or not God will forgive a person. This is an impossible conclusion since salvation is not of works but solely of grace. A born again person does have a new spirit, and a tender heart, and this will be shown in dealings with others, but the new heart is a gift, not a reward.

NRS Mark 1:4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
He came to tell you, that you CAN do something for forgiveness. BUT, you can not FORCE forgiveness ! (Contrary to Jewish believes)

Again you have a works foundation for what merits justification. You are saying a person repents, and this act then merits grace and favor with God.

NRS Luke 5:32 I have come to call not the righteous but sinners to repentance."
If the sinners would all predestined end in hell, he would have no need to come to them.

Salvation is a process that happens in time, it always results in repentance and faith for those who are ordained to eternal life.
Ac 13:48...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

NRS Luke 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Only possible, if the person has the possibility to change.

The self-righteous Jews thought that they could get to heaven by keeping the law. But true gospel repentance is the realization that the best efforts of a sinner is sin, and only Christ's righteousness can save. It is a renouncement of self-righteousness. This repentance is what happens in conversion, and the angels rejoice when a person is converted.

NRS Ezekiel 18:20 The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own
Everyone is responsible for himself. No predestination from the genes or anything else. The only thing that counts is the 'sin'.

Predestination is prior to the creation, and prior to good or bad deeds.
Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

The Fall did impute the first transgression the the entire race, Adam was the representative, and all fell in him. Just as Christ is the representative and head of His people.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

NRS Ezekiel 33:12 And you, mortal, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not save them when they transgress;
(...and further do the sin)

This is another example of the self-righteous relying on their own righteousness. This is not Christ's righteousness, that is why it will not save them.

and as for the wickedness of the wicked, it shall not make them stumble when they turn from their wickedness;
(...as soon as they turn from it !)

A wicked person who realizes that he is wicked, and looks not to himself, but to Christ, will be delivered, this is true repentance.

and the righteous shall not be able to live by their righteousness when they sin.
Sin is the momentum that counts. Nothing else !

Again a re-statement. The self-righteous, being ignorant of God's righteousness, this self-righteousness is completely unprofitable for them.


I think, people of all times, mix up predestination with forseeing. There is a difference !

It is not a mere "knowing before". All things are ordered according to purpose, the ordering causes the things to happen.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Joh 1:12-3 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5153346 -

Sorry Sir,
our interpretations differ. I am convinced Jesus spoke to everyone, for everyone to make his way to salvation. Don't mix someone who reveals the truth and has to recognize Jesus as Christ, with someone who blindly believes Jesus Christ and does still does the sins, especially the sin of SEPARATION, which shows he believes in Christ, but has no understanding of him at all.

LOVE is the opposite of SEPARATION and LOVE is what Jesus preached in all his ways.

You don't need to know Jesus, nor do you need to know Christianity to know this.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5153571 -

AMEN. That was well said and describes my feelings exactly. Never in any other philosophical debate have I come across such one-sided absololutism. The style seems to search for responses exclusively external to the synthesizing thinking mind! The Fundamentalist response is completely robotic or parrot-like in its limited scope, with no ability to act Phenomenologically by isolating universal truths from archaic time and culture based irrelevancies. Engaging such a mind yields insight into its predictability, since one can also access the 'rule book' of the extremist's game. Such rank-and-file mentation is nothing other than tyranical with a Moloch-like GOD as the king tyrant. It would come as no surprise that a new crusade would arise from Fundamentalist minds in the US if it could - more genocidal nazi behavior in the Name of GOD like the Catholics against Jews, Cathars, mystics, Pagans, Muslims, and all who held different views.



Here is a beltbuckle designed for Hitler's elite murderers the SS (Sig Sig rune). It says "God is With Us," and it is a psychological device which helped to tap into the self-righteous religious zeal shared by the SS. As Reichfuhrer Heinrich Himmler said, "Adolf Hitler is my conscience." Hitler believed in a Pagan god, but used belief in the service of Power. The beltbuckle was worn at the Navel Center of Power, the same Center (Manipura: same Indo-European root as Manipu-lation) is the symbol in Hindu Tantra that contains three swastikas and the place where I believe Hitler took the symbol for his own. Racial cleansing is but a variation of genocide; pogroms and persecutions can be against other religions as well. I see no 'love shed abroad in the hearts' of the average Fundamentalist, but I do see obvious hypocrisy.

I do not mind being verbally condemned by such an individual because it demonstrates to others just exactly how the Fundamentalist mind works. Believe what 'I' say or be damned (because what 'I' say is the very Word of GOD, written BY GOD, and there is no higher authority). Indeed, in Truth, there IS no Higher Authority than the dictates of REALITY (i.e., GOD), but this is the important part: the one who thus preaches is the 'mouthpiece' of the LORD, and no matter how such a one protests about his humility in being 'chosen' to be such a 'mouthpiece,' the inner workings of his psyche is cherishing the belief that he is a prophet, a divinely ordained individual - AND YOU ARE NOT! This is the Messianic Complex that Ram Dass introduced me to in BE HERE NOW. His brother-in-law was hospitalized for claiming to be Christ (a common delusion) and when asked why he was locked up but Ram Dass could run around wearing dresses (Indian clothes), Ram Dass explained 'because I believe we are all Christ (in our Real Selves), but you believe it is ONLY you.' A prophet is a lesser claim than being Christ, but the Complex is at bottom. It is sufficiently integrated and so pervasive that it is deemed 'normal,' but then again, Klan beliefs were long deemed 'normal' in the Bible belt of the deep South which preserved the values that gave rise to a society of hate (cloaked in White Christian garb). What else can I say about haters who use Orwellian 'double-think' to say that they are loving?! What can one say about Fundamentalism - a medieval mind-set that cannot discern mythological and metaphorical language from literal language? Is it a lesion on the brain's Angular Gyrus? Is it a form of mass psychotic delusion? Whatever it is, it isn't pretty.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/08/06 11:30 AM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5153599 -

Well said, one strike for people who think their beliefs out instead of accepting a consensus at face value.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5154010 -

The gospel brings to nothing the great wisdom of men and all their great theories of sociology, psychology, and other so called "sciences", as well as all man made "religion".

1Cor 1:18-31
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?1 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

2Cor 10:4-5
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5154018 -

This is all regurgitation. How about delivering an original thought.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5154047 -

I love how people think they can determine which books count as an authoritative source on something and which do not. If all of these books are written by God, and man is fallible, then man should not determine which books count as scripture.

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