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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5127624 - 12/31/05 11:39 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Well shit man.

Talking to fundamentalists is like talking to a wall. I had a friend once who said he didn't believe in dinosaurs because there was no mention of them in the Bible; he had seen the bones but still didn't believe.

You are free (or from your point of view predestined) to believe whatever you want. I'm not going to try to stop you.


If you can make your assertion with scripture I will certainly listen, the problem is scripture is not your authority. If your a Catholic then your church is your authority. The Roman Catholic Church anathematizes anyone who holds to Protestant predestination. I reject the authority of the magisterium, and the Papacy.

BTW
St. Augustine believed in free will, scripture only speaks of predestination toward heaven not hell, and the rest of your sources post-date the protestant break from Christian tradition.


Did you read Augustine? he rejected the free will error of Pelagius.
The sources are Protestant confessions.


My posts here are not an attempt to convert you or your fundamentalists friends (you guys will be fine); my intention is to present the ancient, authentic, Catholic perspective, so that those who reject the protestant heresy need not also reject Christ.

Peace brother,
I'll see you in purgatory if not before then.


"Purgatory" is a not in scripture, it is just another false creation of Romanism. But if you read scripture you would know this.


Edited by fivepointer (12/31/05 11:40 PM)


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5127963 - 01/01/06 02:46 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Did you read Augustine? he rejected the free will error of Pelagius.



This is from St. Augustine, Catholic Bishop of Hippo, On Grace and Free Will Chapter 2:

Quote:

Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine. There is, to begin with, the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards.



http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

Yes, Augustine argued against the Pelagian heresy. However, Pelagius' error was not that he believed in freedom; he erred in denying the necessity of grace for salvation. The truth, taught by St. Augustine, is that both grace and freedom are required for salvation.

Pelagians only countenance freedom, while Calvinists only perceive grace. Pelagianism, which says that man can merit salvation, and Calvinism, which says that he is predestined regardless of his actions, both fail to recognize the virtuous middle way. Both grace and free acceptance of grace are required for salvation.


"Purgatory" is a not in scripture, it is just another false creation of Romanism. But if you read scripture you would know this.

It is in scripture, however, Protestants had to remove a few books from the Bible in order to accomadate their new religion. Then, after snipping away the parts of scripture they found distasteful, they had the gall to claim "Sola Scriptura!", which by the way is not in scripture.

From the second book of Maccabees (Removed from protestant Bibles in the 16th century):

Quote:

On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs. But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain. They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin (II Maccabees 12: 39-46).



http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/2maccabees/2maccabees12.htm

Joseph Maccabees was a Jewish man fighting Greek conquerers of Israel. After one of the battles, he found some of his dead Jewish soldiers wearing religious medals of pagan gods. This constituted the sin of idolatry, which was the worst possible sin, yet the soldiers died fighting for God, so they were martyrs guaranteed salvation (resurrection on the last day). Because they died in a state of sin, and yet were destined for salvation, reason dictates that there must be a possibility for forgiveness of sins after death. Furthermore, prayers for the dead would be pointless unless sins could be forgiven after death. The 'place' where sins are forgiven after death is called purgatory (place of purging or cleansing). 

Further evidence is given in the gospel of Matthew:

Quote:

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come (Matthew 12:32).



http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew12.htm

When Jesus says that sins against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in the next life, one can assume that lesser sins can be forgiven in the next life, in purgatory.

The beauty of purgatory is that it makes room for the infinite mercy of the all powerful and absolutely good God, while still preserving the perfection of heaven.

I could write more, but this is already long, and I want people to read it.

Peace, Love , and Shroomyness.
:smile: :heart: :mushroom2:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5127976 - 01/01/06 02:53 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

If the arrogance that supports your philosophy/theology is correct, I prefer to suffer in Hell. Going to Heaven would be an insufferable bore. It will obviously be full of brain dead regurgitators. At least in Hell there will be some good conversation to be had, as it will be host to the greatest minds of all humanity.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5127987 - 01/01/06 03:00 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

See ya there Hue, and Happy New Year.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5128264 - 01/01/06 09:52 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Augustine's own early writings did support free will, but his later writings rejected it.

Augustine's "A Treatise On The Predestination Of The Saints", fully supports predestination. Calvin quotes from it extensively in his book "Calvin's Calvinism". These writings are on the web and freely available. I would like to add that my authority is not writings of men, but I am illustrating the fact that Augustine held to predestination. In fact he would have to be anathematized by the Council of Trent for such a "heresy".


shroomydan
Pelagians only countenance freedom, while Calvinists only perceive grace. Pelagianism, which says that man can merit salvation, and Calvinism, which says that he is predestined regardless of his actions, both fail to recognize the virtuous middle way. Both grace and free acceptance of grace are required for salvation.


There is no middle way, it is either grace or works. The minute you try to mix a little merit you have completely demolished grace.


It is in scripture, however, Protestants had to remove a few books from the Bible in order to accommodate their new religion.

The Jewish Canon does not include the Apocrypha. No references are made to it in the NT, Jesus never quotes from it. Early church fathers like Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius, and Jerome spoke out against the Apocrypha. It was included in some Protestant bible only as historical information, but was never considered inspired. In 1546 the Roman Catholic Council of Trent declared it to be canon. Just another example of the audacity of Rome to add to God's Word. I am anathema according to Trent because I reject the Apocrypha. Perhaps they send the inquisition to burn me as a heretic.

When Jesus says that sins against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in the next life, one can assume that lesser sins can be forgiven in the next life, in purgatory.

The NT simply does not have Purgatory at all. I want to address your notion that there is such a thing as greater or lesser sins. Any sin is FATAL, even ONE. Either you have perfect righteousness, or you go to hell. Only Christ has perfect righteousness, this is sole and only reason why anyone does not go to hell, is that they are robed in Christ's righteousness, and this makes them spotless and acceptable to God.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5128295 - 01/01/06 10:52 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Perhaps they send the inquisition to burn me as a heretic.

:hellfire: Hehehehehehehe...  :evil:








































Happy New Year Heretic. :smile:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5128393 - 01/01/06 12:40 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Hey, temporary hell will be closed somedays, as if g*d reveals, no hell for the disbelievers is nescessary any more (will be thrown with death into the fire-lake)...
Because hell is everyones own decision to seperate from g*d in the spiritual meaning of 'trust' (of those who can not know all).
If it is possivle to see g*d and still want to seperate from him (what is possible due to free will and omnipossibility), that was, is and will be eternal hell.
Our living on earth is only a little pre-taste of it :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5128556 - 01/01/06 02:35 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
Perhaps they send the inquisition to burn me as a heretic.

:hellfire: Hehehehehehehe...  :evil:

The first time I was called a heretic was by a professor of theology around 1973. I was fairly thrilled because the man clearly understood and acknowledged my position (I was 20 years old and still adolescent) even though he adhered to the standard doctrine. The same kind of  titillation can be present for other reasons, like the exaggerated self-importance of an ego that is inflated to the degree that ideas of persecution (secretly cherished notions of martyrdom perhaps) are evidenced. Paranoia has two faces - grandiosity and persecution. The meaning here is that one needs to feel pretty important in order for the complementary delusion to arise in which 'they' are out to get me (I know too much, or I'm a righteous believer in the evil arena of the world, or I'm "ordained" by G-D [an attenuated 'anointed' by G-D, etc.).

I have had more than a passing acquaintance with paranoia in the form of a Messianic Complex. It was precipitated by excessive use of LSD in a short period of time. On one occasion, I remember standing in a tight crowd at that huge Grateful Dead show at Englishtown, NJ about 1977, and saying "A seminarian doesn't belong here." People turned and looked at me with such disgust, yet I imagined that I was a righteous Christian in the midst of thousands of godless heathen! I was tripping madly - took way too much acid - and actually left the show before the Dead hit the stage to suffer in the parking lot. When I got home, I tore up all my Grateful Dead shirts and pulled the 'Cosmic Consciousness' bumpersticker off my car. I 'realized' that my enthusiasm for the Dead was idolatry  :eek: and that I had inadvertantly been 'worshipping' 'rock idols!' Fortunately, that phase of paranoia passed and I came back to a balanced perspective, but for a time in seminary, as the expressions pencilled on bathroom walls read:

"I used to be high on acid, now I'm high on G-D."

Or

"I used to be an acid-head, now I'm a Godhead," to which someone added -
"You're a shithead." (A fairly appropriate respose I'd say to whomever the inflated person was who took himself that seriously).

A song by Larry Norman [?] a Christian musician, had the lyric:
"No more LSD for me - I met the Man from Galilee..." and I got behind that thought for a long while. When I did use psychedelics again, say on Easter Sunday, I'd contemplate the Mystery of Resurrection, read 'The Mystical Theology' of Dionysus the Areopagite, and my trips were with/in Christ. And thus it has remained, for, "...lo, I am with you alway, even to the end of the world."










































Happy New Year Heretic. :smile:




--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/01/06 02:45 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5128918 - 01/01/06 06:04 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

I'm a believer in the idea that all will eventually reach salvation, including Satan himself. But those who are more pure of heart must strive to change the hearts of those who turn away from God's love. Hell is a realm of purification, not an eternal torture chamber. It is created out of our bad karma, and we will escape from it once that karma has been paid off. However, one quick way to pay off that karmic debt without such painful purification is to adopt the Christ mind, which is Jesus' gift to the world. Let his sacrifice become your sacrifice, and he will bear the weight of those sins.


--------------------


Edited by Paradigm (01/01/06 06:20 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Silversoul]
    #5128943 - 01/01/06 06:17 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

To each heart, a path is prepared, and each will follow that path for the experience. Not just our experience but the experience of Tao or God. All experience is wanted and needed and none more important than another.

OK, Now you just heard my spiel. I said it just like you all said yours, as if I know it as truth. But like what you said, it's just something I choose to believe, without knowing for sure what the truth is.

And that is about all you can say about it. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinekeefboy
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5130357 - 01/02/06 04:34 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

"When a Christian claims to be informed by the Holy Spirit, one can presume that they are not referring to metaphor alone, depicted as theophanies in the Bible, but to a real change in their consciousness. That change may translate into new values upon which to base one's life, and that change constitutes a religious experience. However, the legitimate boundaries of authority of religious experience ends with the experiencer. In other words, a religious experience can be embraced by the one having the experience, but that experience has no authority over other individuals. I may concede that someone has had a life-changing experience, but personally, I will look for the way an individual manifests that inner change in his/her demeanor, personality, actions (The Sun in my little story). I will be particularly wary of any individual who does more than share his/her experience with me - particularly if that extremely intimate experience is volunteered, not requested! Furthermore, I will be more than wary, I will experience obvious aggression from anyone who expects his/her personal religious experience to have any authority over MY life. THAT aggression is the social pathology behind every atrocity ever perpetrated in the name of GOD!"


markos, that paragraph summarizes why these people are such a burden on society really well. they assert themselves as the authority, then proceed to say God wills their authority over you.

in most societies to date there are examples of someone saying he is better than another guy. this is hardly the case since most people and their experiences can be used by others to learn from. in my opinion a leader should not threaten or coerce his followers, but instead, set up a system which they will follow voluntarily without falling into any predetermined paths for failure.


--------------------
"A friend of mine was famous for holding his hits until his face swelled up and turned bright red. The veins in his neck and forehead would bulge and he'd get bug-eyed. He'd start sweating. Then he'd belch the hit out violently, along with plenty of spit, and gasp for air." ~UBAKO


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: keefboy]
    #5130518 - 01/02/06 08:02 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Thanks.
I will affirm that I am a Christian if someone asks, a Jewish Christian if one were to press further, and a Jewish Christian Gnostic if someone is really attempting to make contact with me, not just chat. Attitudinally, most people just tune out immediately - their eyes glaze over when it sounds like they're gonna have to listen carefully or they might learn something. Others might listen, say "very interesting," and change the subject. Still others who are extremely vested in their own doctrinal (intellectual) formulations of what Christ is or means, will be overtly hostile to anything that differs from their very particular understanding. Some will claim 'Apostolic authority' which allegedly goes back to the Biblical writings which says that Peter was "the rock" upon which the church was to be built. The Pope wears a ring which is kissed, which allegedly belonged to the Biblical Peter. It may well have been that James the [biological!] brother of Jesus, or more radically still, Mary called Magdalene was to have that honor, but the writngs were in either case changed to fit Constantine's evil agenda!

Since Fundamentalists choose to remain ignorant of Biblical scholarship, and choose to believe that the New Testament books were actually written by the same people that ostensibly accompanied Y'shua, they are fundamentally in error. The Gospel of John was written a good 90-100 years after Jesus died - stylistically and theologically completely and utterly different from the Synoptic Gospels. The lack of agreement just in this comparison alone makes the apparent unity of the four Gospels fall apart. John's Gospel, the most mythological, mystical and Hellenistic is also the one responsible for so much [unchristian] hatred towards Jews.

Half of the writings attributed to Paul show such difference in attitude, say, towards women - the egalitarian nature of early Christianity changes to a true misogynism where women can't teach, preach, or do anything but 'be quiet' in church - that half the writings of Paul were not even written by Paul. This is not just New Testament, the same thing happened in the Old Testament Book of the prophet Isaiah. In fact, some think that a woman wrote some of Isaiah (imagine that!)

Nobody seems to marvel that scriptures were not written by the originators - neither Jesus/Y'shua wrote anything that we know of, and Mohammed wrote nothing either. The Qur'an is a collage of saying attributed to The Prophet. I do not say these things to instill doubt, but Gnostics doubt. Even if Jesus never existed as a physical human being, the teachings from the Bible on love, equanimity and communion with G-D are sufficient for me to have faith in The Way (Christ). The Way is 'The Way to Be,' and it is characterized by Compassion, NOT judgement. Judgement [Severity, Kabbalistically speaking] is reserved for G-D alone. Those who claim to be Christians, conformed to Christ, who point a finger and say "You are damned!" - have so overstepped their authority as human beings, they are unconsciously assuming a role reserved for G-D. THEY are the meanest of the heretics - the inquisitors - Judgement without Mercy.

Thanks for reading and considering. It is awakening from 'The Matrix.'

Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5131953 - 01/02/06 06:35 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Hey Markos,
now I am absolute crazy and tell you about my beliefs about John. He >is< the trinity. As in my eyes he is the disciple, the baptist, the evangelist and the one who wrote the revelation, as he is the omni-one who inhibits and is inhibited by good and evil, he needs someone who represent the good parts of g*d, in his will to create out of love.
This one is Jesus and John saw it as baptist coming from the sky down to him. As his disciple, he was the most intime one..as baptist he had to loos his head beacuse of the truth...

John is the one to refer to, who has seen Jesus clothed as g*d in flesh :smile:

Doesn't gnosis has anything to tell ?

:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (01/02/06 06:47 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5132177 - 01/02/06 07:28 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Come on, noone has any reference in the bible for Jesus being in hell after crucification, besides mine ?

fivepointer ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5132298 - 01/02/06 08:00 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Sorry, I can't interpret your own particular belief, if that is what you're requesting.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5132313 - 01/02/06 08:04 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

So there aren't any links to gnosis for that ? Hmmm...
okaaayyy , thanks anyways :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5132627 - 01/02/06 09:20 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Come on, noone has any reference in the bible for Jesus being in hell after crucification, besides mine ?

fivepointer ?




i have also read that the bible describes jesus descending to hell in the days prior to his resurrection in order to preach to the souls there and help them find the way out. i don't know where this is in the bible though so i can't really help you.


Edited by Deviate (01/02/06 09:20 PM)


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OfflineThrasher420x
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5132814 - 01/02/06 10:02 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

CUBErt said:
The other day I was sitting with some friends downtown and we were approached by two young guys who stopped to ask us if we were 100% sure we would go to heaven if we died. I thought to myself "can anyone be 100% sure?" But I remained silent while they spoke with my other, blatantly anti-christian friends. Their whole deal was about accepting Jesus and asking us if we really had a concept of hell and if we really wanted to go there. When I began speaking, I explained that I had gone to Catholic school for 10 years and knew plenty about Christianity, but that I began to question the faith as I got older. (Now for the part that really bothered me) I started asking them about the legitimacy of other major religions like Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. I said that I considered myself Christian but that there are many other faiths that connect us all to the same God with many of the same basic moral standards. In reply they said that these religions were all missing Jesus Christ, the mid-point between us and God. So then I asked "what about people who live in isolation and never hear about Jesus? are they going to hell?" They said that the Bible says that everybody gets a chance to hear about God. I do not remember seeing that in the Bible but perhaps they were right. They used the Bible passage "I am the way, the truth, and the light. Nobody cometh unto the father except through me."

Anyways, since then I have just been feeling somewhat upset. My friend argued with them that Christianity is a bunch of paranoia, and I would consider myself a pretty paranoid person. I have been thinking alot:
-Wondering if I might be hell-bound
-Thinking of all the wonderful people on these boards and that I know in person who would be denied eternal bliss for believing something that is just as practical to them as Jesus Christ is to Christians.
-Coming to terms with the thought that I may have only remained Christian for so long for fear of hell.
-Wondering how a God of infinite wisdom could expect human beings all to jump on the same bandwagon when there are so many untrustworthy people around, especially in religion.

I was just wondering how other people felt about this issue, and hoping to gain some insight from those who are more well-read on spirituality then myself.





you know something like this happened to me and one of my friends while we were at the skate park he said when you die can you be 100% sure that you'll go to heaven then he hands us a little booklet and says well you can it was frightening kinda like an infomercial and we challenged his argument and he just struggled to come up with a response he was just completely dumb founded just standing there like a lifeless robot or something he was so brainwashed that he completely lost all hope he couldn't even come up with a legit statement to back up how he felt i mean this guy really needed to start questioning things that are presented to him and think for himself a little more


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Offlinemikeownow
Humungus fungus

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 2,856
Loc: WA,USA
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: psyka]
    #5132838 - 01/02/06 10:11 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

psyka said:
I know I'm going to hell.

Why? Because I believe in the Force.

http://www.ooze.com/toolofsatan/




WHAT?


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Thrasher420x]
    #5132863 - 01/02/06 10:17 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Thrasher420x said:
Quote:

CUBErt said:
The other day I was sitting with some friends downtown and we were approached by two young guys who stopped to ask us if we were 100% sure we would go to heaven if we died. I thought to myself "can anyone be 100% sure?" But I remained silent while they spoke with my other, blatantly anti-christian friends. Their whole deal was about accepting Jesus and asking us if we really had a concept of hell and if we really wanted to go there. When I began speaking, I explained that I had gone to Catholic school for 10 years and knew plenty about Christianity, but that I began to question the faith as I got older. (Now for the part that really bothered me) I started asking them about the legitimacy of other major religions like Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. I said that I considered myself Christian but that there are many other faiths that connect us all to the same God with many of the same basic moral standards. In reply they said that these religions were all missing Jesus Christ, the mid-point between us and God. So then I asked "what about people who live in isolation and never hear about Jesus? are they going to hell?" They said that the Bible says that everybody gets a chance to hear about God. I do not remember seeing that in the Bible but perhaps they were right. They used the Bible passage "I am the way, the truth, and the light. Nobody cometh unto the father except through me."

Anyways, since then I have just been feeling somewhat upset. My friend argued with them that Christianity is a bunch of paranoia, and I would consider myself a pretty paranoid person. I have been thinking alot:
-Wondering if I might be hell-bound
-Thinking of all the wonderful people on these boards and that I know in person who would be denied eternal bliss for believing something that is just as practical to them as Jesus Christ is to Christians.
-Coming to terms with the thought that I may have only remained Christian for so long for fear of hell.
-Wondering how a God of infinite wisdom could expect human beings all to jump on the same bandwagon when there are so many untrustworthy people around, especially in religion.

I was just wondering how other people felt about this issue, and hoping to gain some insight from those who are more well-read on spirituality then myself.





you know something like this happened to me and one of my friends while we were at the skate park he said when you die can you be 100% sure that you'll go to heaven then he hands us a little booklet and says well you can it was frightening kinda like an infomercial and we challenged his argument and he just struggled to come up with a response he was just completely dumb founded just standing there like a lifeless robot or something he was so brainwashed that he completely lost all hope he couldn't even come up with a legit statement to back up how he felt i mean this guy really needed to start questioning things that are presented to him and think for himself a little more




This guy must live near us man. Either that or fundamentalist Baptist churches across the globe have established a new marketing campaign.


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