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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5139444 - 01/04/06 06:06 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

To anyone who wanna read:

I just talked with a good friend of mine. A catholic priest, 65 years, italian and he found the idea of Jesus being in hell after crucification equal funny as me. He also said, there mixed someone the idea of dantes inferno or hades with hell :lol: We looked in his catechism, which he gave me with me and there was no word about that. I will do your websearch, falcon and fivepointer (thanks), either.

I asked him too about only those who heard of Jesus would come to heaven and he almost was shocked. Same as me. He said, EVERY human on this planet will get at least ONE chance to find the way (back) to g*d if he was diverted from him by sin (I use this * for him too, because he's a really cool priest [also Dr.. in philosophy !]). It only gets 'problematic' if you don't find that way (back) before you die while being 'divorced'. BUT there are many different ways !
Jesus simply was one, who traveled in the desert and suddenly found an oasis. He turned around to his fellows shouting "Here, look, here ! Come over here !"
He would have been an asshole, if he did not do that.

AND the catholic church has CLEARLY turned away from fear, as they see 'making fear' as a sin NOW. It is the opposite of love and g*d and/or Jesus would not 'emit' that in his/their 'original' way.

amen

edit: I hope this *blasts* everyone as much as it does to me !!

:heartpump:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (01/04/06 07:26 PM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5139767 - 01/04/06 07:35 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

CUBErt
And what do you mean God has "graciously favored a person with his grace?" I disagree with statements like this and that whole predestination idea. If God only favors certain people, what is the point of living if you are not one of those people?


Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

This objection is answered in Romans Chapter 9. Read these verses carefully.

Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 ? What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5139933 - 01/04/06 08:08 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Saulus the Paulus, aeh or was it Paulus the Saulus


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5140251 - 01/04/06 09:05 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

I have three questions for you fivepointer.

1) Why do you consider scripture to be your ultimate authority when:

  a)The Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture,  including the Deuterocanonical texts and excluding many other books like the Gospel of Thomas,
  *and*
  b) Nothing in Scripture says that Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith. Instead, the Bible says that the Church, not Scripture, is "the pillar and foundation of truth"(1 Tim. 3:15), and the final judge of disputes among Christians (Matt. 18:17)?

2) Why do you insist on using an archaic translation, which is difficult to understand, when there are accurate translations from the Greek and Hebrew into modern English? Was King James some kind of prophet?


3) If you believe the theory of predestination to be correct, in spite of all Jesus' teaching about what to do and what not to do, then why are you trying to convince us that you are right?

There is no way for you to affect our beliefs because they are predestined, and your words can not help anyone achieve salvation, because all who read them are already predestined either to heaven or to hell.

What you are doing just doesn't make any sense. :shrug:


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OfflineCUBErt
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5141077 - 01/04/06 11:59 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Nice post shroomydan, as well as the post in the eternal sin thread.

Fivepointer, I will try and sift through your antiquated passage at a time when I have less homework. I would ask for a simple translation but for obvious reasons I am somewhat skeptical of your judgement and interperetation.


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5142134 - 01/05/06 05:03 AM (16 years, 15 days ago)

This is within Paulus letter to the romans. I think he was struggeling within his faith himself, so his words are more of an inner reflection of his own fight about his justifications. As he was a 'fallen' hellenistic and pharisean Jew, he struggled for and with the 'God is only for Israel'-statement from them. He said, god stands to his treaty with Israel, but not everyone who comes from Israel is an Israelit.
He jokes at the end, RWB (Romans 11,25f):
11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part hath happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles shall be come in.
11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
11:27 For this {is} my covenant to them, when I shall take away their sins.

But I am in general very critical to Paulus. I often and usually read him as a very agressive one and my sense of humor hasn't developed so far to always understand him in a slightly ironical way.
In essence he says: Until all the others are saved to god, then the Israelites will be finally saved, too. That is a joke, imho ! :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (01/05/06 05:20 AM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5142155 - 01/05/06 06:21 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

And to be more clear: In this whole letter, he states how could he believe in exclusive salvation as a Jew if he is now a christ. That is WHY he believes in christ and not the jewish exclusivety.

So this argument is for christian-god, not is an exclusive god (in relevance to someones 'genes' or predestination) like the Jewish god seemed to be !

quite circle-tricky...Paulus is a struggler.

edit:
NRS Matthew 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (01/05/06 06:33 AM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5143874 - 01/05/06 06:48 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

1) Why do you consider scripture to be your ultimate authority when:

a)The Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture, including the Deuterocanonical texts and excluding many other books like the Gospel of Thomas,
*and*


I have already refuted the Deuterocanonical (Apocrypha) books in my previous posting, they are not canonical, and were added in 1542 by the Council of Trent.

The early church, before any Roman Catholic Church even existed, already widely agreed on what books are canonical. The Council of Carthage (397 A.D.) listed as canonical "only those books that were generally regarded by the consensus of use as properly a canon". In other words, it didn't create the canon. Rather, it formally identified the canon that already existed.


b) Nothing in Scripture says that Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith. Instead, the Bible says that the Church, not Scripture, is "the pillar and foundation of truth"(1 Tim. 3:15), and the final judge of disputes among Christians (Matt. 18:17)?

Why where the Pharisees unbraided by Jesus? Because they put traditions above the Word of God, seems things never change.

Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Lu 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Scripture does declare itself as given by inspiration of God repeatedly.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


2) Why do you insist on using an archaic translation, which is difficult to understand, when there are accurate translations from the Greek and Hebrew into modern English?

The KJV is not hard to understand. While no translation is perfect, the KJV is relatively better than any modern translation.

Was King James some kind of prophet?

No.

3) If you believe the theory of predestination to be correct, in spite of all Jesus' teaching about what to do and what not to do, then why are you trying to convince us that you are right?

There is no way for you to affect our beliefs because they are predestined, and your words can not help anyone achieve salvation, because all who read them are already predestined either to heaven or to hell.


Because I do not know if the reader is elect or not. I know that the gospel (which is the person and work of Jesus Christ), will be understood by those who are given ears. It is not my business to determine whether someone is elect or reprobate. The gospel is the means by which the elect are brought to conversion.

While someone confesses a false gospel, (such as salvation conditioned on the sinner), should be judged to be currently unregenerate and lost, this does not mean they will remain that way, as they might be granted repentance and belief of the truth.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5144510 - 01/05/06 09:48 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

This is my last reply to this post.


The early church, before any Roman Catholic Church even existed

There is no such thing as the "Roman Catholic Church", there is only "One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church". The Catholic Church has more than twenty rites (rituals). Chaldean, Maronite, Malankarese, Coptic, Roman, Melkite, and Ruthenian are a few you may have heard of. All are faithful to the magisterium. The entire list is here.
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/newman/Pages/fr-catholicrites.html



I have already refuted the Deuterocanonical (Apocrypha) books in my previous posting, they are not canonical, and were added in 1542 by the Council of Trent.

The early church, before any Roman Catholic Church even existed, already widely agreed on what books are canonical. The Council of Carthage (397 A.D.) listed as canonical "only those books that were generally regarded by the consensus of use as properly a canon". In other words, it didn't create the canon. Rather, it formally identified the canon that already existed.


Your assertion is simply false.
I highly recommend this entire article to anyone interested in the history of the Bible.

Quote:

The first official council that accepted the present New Testament canon was a local synod, the Council of Hippo in 393. The minutes of that council have been lost, but they were read into the record at the Council of Carthage in 397. Canon 24 from that Synod reads as follows:

Besides the canonical Scriptures, nothing shall be read in church under the name of divine Scriptures. Moreover, the canonical Scriptures are these: [then follows a list of Old Testament books, including all of the deuterocanonical books].




http://www.godtouches.org/deutero-intro.html


Scripture does declare itself as given by inspiration of God repeatedly.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
OK, I forgot about that one.  :tongue:
Scripture is inspired, but what is and what is not scripture? See above.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
"Spake", I don't see "writeth"!

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
"Heard", not "read". There was no written Gospel at the time of St. Paul's evangelizing. Spoken word is Tradition!

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Quote:

Indeed, the word of God is living and effective, sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating even between soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and able to discern reflections and thoughts of the heart. No creature is concealed from him, but everything is naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must render an account. Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession. (Hebrews 4:12-14)


http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews4.htm

When taken in context, "the Word of God" is clearly referring to the person Jesus; "No creature is concealed from him." Recall the beginning of the Gospel of John.
Quote:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God...And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth (John 1: 1 - 14).


http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john1.htm

To interpret "word of God" to mean "scripture" in the passage you cited would be akin translating the preamble of John as "In the beginning there was the Bible."

The KJV is not hard to understand. While no translation is perfect, the KJV is relatively better than any modern translation.
Everybody is entitled to his opinion, however, the use of archaic words like "sheweth" rather than "showed" tends to render it difficult for most people to read. 


Because I do not know if the reader is elect or not. I know that the gospel (which is the person and work of Jesus Christ), will be understood by those who are given ears. It is not my business to determine whether someone is elect or reprobate. The gospel is the means by which the elect are brought to conversion.

While someone confesses a false gospel, (such as salvation conditioned on the sinner), should be judged to be currently unregenerate and lost, this does not mean they will remain that way, as they might be granted repentance and belief of the truth.

If change is possible, then predestination is not valid. If accepting the 'true' Gospel is requisite for salvation, then salvation is dependent on the work of man!

You have misrepresented facts of history (St. Augustine, Council of Carthage), and your position on evangelizing the predestined is incoherent.

The good news is that the Truth is out there for you to find, if you open your eyes and your mind.

Quote:

This is why I speak to them in parables, because 'they look but do not see and hear but do not listen or understand.' Isaiah's prophecy is fulfilled in them, which says: 'You shall indeed hear but not understand you shall indeed look but never see. Gross is the heart of this people, they will hardly hear with their ears, they have closed their eyes, lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and be converted, and I heal them.'



http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew13.htm

Much love Friend.
:heart:


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5148491 - 01/06/06 08:47 PM (16 years, 13 days ago)

An inseparable gulf lies between Sola Scriptura and Scripture + tradition as the basis for truth and all doctrine.

Scripture is infallible, and good for all doctrine. Men are fallible, traditions of men only seem to make untruth more solid as it gets wrapped "respectability", "reputation" and "history".

Let me explain my position on the predestination, nothing is a requisite for salvation, not faith, not correct doctrine, not repentance. Correct doctrine is an immediate result of conversion, it is not a cause of conversion. The Spirit teaches every one of the elect what the gospel is and is not, and what is the sole and only ground of salvation, which is the person and work of Jesus Christ alone. Every broken sinner knows immediately upon conversion that human merit can not enter into salvation, since sinners have no merit to bring! If I believed that correct doctrine was a requisite to salvation, that would make the work of correct doctrine the merit that obtains salvation. If I believed this I would be lost.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5148503 - 01/06/06 08:51 PM (16 years, 13 days ago)

I think you are lost anyway. Just my 2 cents fivepointer. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5149386 - 01/07/06 01:46 AM (16 years, 13 days ago)

A White Fraternal Christian Brotherhood. The insignia worn on the left breast is an equilateral cross at the center of which is a diamond which holds a 'drop of Christ's blood.' They have a philosophy and a '[c]hristian' theology which is absolutely intolerant of any interpretation of Biblical writ other than their own, including all moderate Protestant sects, Catholics, Coptics and Orthodox. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. The pointed hood though in white, not black, is reminiscent of the medieval Inquisitor's hood. Many members belong to Southern Baptist congregations which idolatize the Bible as the infallible Word of GOD and can justify Ku Klux Klan ideology by a literal interpretation of those words. This is Fundamentalist [c]hristianity at its most extreme, although the atrocities of their past fortunately have declined in the present. They call their rite 'cross lightings' not 'burnings' but to find one on your property does not symbolize love, but rather hate and threat of death.

Here is a lynching of a Black man - a representative action of American [c]hristian Fundamentalism, and a Muslim Fundamentalist beheading about to commence. Both of the Fundamentalist extremist groups hate each other with a depth of feeling that reaches straight down to proverbial Hell, yet the first group claims to be founded on the metaphysical nature of Love and the second group claims in every Sura of its Qur'an to be based upon the equivalent in it's tradition "Allah the Compassionate, the Merciful."

What is wrong with all of these pictures? One can only stand back and witness with pristine detachment the truth about fanaticism in both camps. Their doctrines differ but their convictions are on a par with one another, as are their atrocities.


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/08/06 01:46 AM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5149908 - 01/07/06 07:17 AM (16 years, 12 days ago)

Markos again shows his backhanded slander technique by equating Fundamentalist Christians", (a term he still hasn't defined, yet he as labeled me as such) to the KKK and Muslim Fundamentalism and lynchings.

What he is really saying is anyone who believes in the fundamentals of Christianity (I will biefly define the term - Sola Scriptura, Sovereign Grace, physical existence, resurrection and Deity of Jesus Christ, justification by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone apart from human merits) is filled with hate.

Just because some men take the term "Christian", and then go and lynch people, this does not make them Christian. Anyone who would do such a thing obviously has not been born of the Spirit, and the love of God has not been shed abroad in their hearts.

Why paint a whole group based on the actions of those who obviously do not hold to the faith? Don't let your anger against the truth of gospel (which is summed up as the person and work of Jesus Christ) consume you.

Markos denies the core doctrines of the faith, and has been called out and exposed. I hope that in time Markos may know the grace of God in truth.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5150145 - 01/07/06 11:44 AM (16 years, 12 days ago)

Much nonsense. Intolerant Christians abound and not that many belong to the KKK. I grew up in a baptist church and saw first hand the hypocrisy and hate preached in my church. I also grew up in a mostly Catholic neighborhood and witnessed the same hatred and condemnation of the heathen nonbelievers. My assessment now is that it is based mainly in poor parenting, education, and living in a fear based culture.

As far as Markos is concerned. Here is someone who can be called a Christian. While being an imperfect human with fallibilities he continues to strive after the principles of love and compassion that make Christ's life an example for some to emulate.

You have focused on condemnation to hell as the punishment of all who oppose your beliefs and show very little in the way of love outside of mouthing some platitudes so you don't appear totally the way you really believe. You are among the chosen few. Which is a hysterical farce IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5150257 - 01/07/06 12:45 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

I did not address you, I addressed the subject at hand which reeks far more of the psychologies of the different posters (all of us) than any metaphysic any of us chooses to embrace. This kind of post ferrets out your motives however, in which your judgement of my spiritual status is written out. This needs to be shown to others here because it reveals not my spiritual status, but rather, your psychological status. You are ego-inflated as are the majority of human beings who assume this kind of religious stance. Ego-inflation, regardless of the trigger: religious fervor, bipolar disorder, cocaine/amphetamine euphoria, etc. all lead the individual to an 'assumed' moral high ground. Individuals feel above the masses and perpetrate all manner of crimes against others. The religious situation is different because it claims justification for the actions based on a 'yard-stick,' a gold-standard' of morality deemed so by virtue of its supernatural origin. Christian and Muslim Fundamentalist-Literalist believers alike are blind to their psychological dyanamics. They fail to see that they are BOTH saying exactly the same thing: 'I am right and you are wrong!' - and they do not have the ability to detach from their own psychological processes to examine the relativity of their respective perspectives. You sir are such an individual. You are in reality NOT in a position to assess the true spiritual status of another human being EXCEPT by the rules of the doctrinal game that you have chosen to adopt. Such absolutism is, as human history continues to demonstrate (or demonstrate) the very core of our planetary religious madness. GOD and GOD alone - not the differing human IDEAS of GOD, but Very Reality Itself will determine who is 'right with GOD' not you, not any man or woman with a book and a doctrine and an agenda consciously or unconsciously held. Re-read 1 Corinthians 13 and remember how 'love' manifests in human psychology. Rabid fanaticism is clearly not the state of being that is described therein.

The Bible is spuriously historical according to the best archeologists and historians of our time and mythological in large measure. The Genesis account is undeniably written in Hebrew midrashic style and is similar to to many of the ancient creation myths. To state that thr Genesis account is a scientific or phenomenologically accurate account of physical incidents, while all other creation stories are false, is indicative of the psychology of the person making such affirmation, not a revelation of truth.

The 'moralities' included in the Bible contains murders of children, genocide, and incest. That Matthew begins with "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David...," and David was said to be an adulterer and murderer of Hezekiah the Hittite. It is gross error to miss the juxtaposition of goodness and evil as depicted in writings, and fail to see the evil while affirming historicity to any goodness. A geneology between Jesus and Adam links Jesus to Joseph in classic patriarchal fashion, but the inconsistency is obvious - Jesus would have been of the blood-line of Mary if parthenogenesis were really meant to be taken physically instead of mytho-poetically. The mistranslation of the Hebrew into Greek, from 'Matthew' reading Isaiah in Greek not Hebrew gives us Mary as a 'virgin' [parthenos] instead of 'young woman' [almah: Hebrew]. The Hebrew 'betula' means virgin, but both concepts are collapsed into one word 'parthenos' in Greek. The Hebrew Isaiah did NOT use the word for virgin, it was a mistranslation owing to the lack of differentiation in Greek! Matthew should not have used the Greek Septuigint for his source, but the original Hebrew. This is but one example, but the entire history of the Virgin Mary, the tradition of monasticism, the virgin birth all derive from one single mistranslated word!

I am not attacking the value of Biblical wisdom, neither do I attack one man's choice to be a Muslim, another a Christian, another a Jew. But, in common to all these faiths is a literal interpretation which is rigid and absolutist and is inconsistent with what is known of the mentality of the people of millenia past. It is an interpretation that is contrary to common sense and empirical science alike. Adherence to anything which is contradicted by common sense (sense organs) and science may be taken as a transcendental attitude of faith - a faith which can deny the obvious world for an assertion of scripture. But this is denial of reality, not transcendence of the profane/mundane world. Absolutism, literalness is a misdirected plea for certitude in a domain which yields no certitude. The answer is to 'let be,' or "Let it be" as the Beatles sang. Nobody is in a position to affirm past a certain point - that point which yields order and peace to one's individual existence, beyond which the only sane perspective must admit to a 'maybe' - maybe I'm wrong, maybe he's right, maybe we're both wrong, maybe we're both right, etc. With a sufficiently 'high' perspective, one can hold the opposites in union. That is the goal, to see 'sub specie aeternitatus' - under the aspect of eternity. The goal is not merely to play a role on the battlefield of life and the soul. That is the meaning of the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita btw, which every Hindu understands to be true while being mythological and metaphorical. Try to grasp Truth with a faculty other than the one you've been employing and you will see this (not my) point. I appreciate spiritual struggle, but I also have learned a little to relax my white-knuckled grip, to let be and let GOD be incontrol with fear of sinking ito the quagmire of dissipation. Take a deep living breath and sigh/die in each moment. The opposites to which I refer are in that inspiration-expiration.

Shalom.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5150444 - 01/07/06 01:55 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
This kind of post ferrets out your motives however, in which your judgement of my spiritual status is written out.




Obviously this is not relevant to the discussion at hand, but I would just like to comment that your appropriate use of the verb "ferrets" was much appreciated. :grin: Very creative and expressive, and it reminds me of when one of my ferrets will tunnel underneath the blankets of my bed, and the other will notice the lumps in motion and will dive underneath, sense the movements, and will proceed to tunnel right up to the other's exact location (very much akin to their application of rushing rabbits out of their holes, i'm sure). :lol: Very intriguing! :thumbup:

Quote:


Ego-inflation, regardless of the trigger: religious fervor, bipolar disorder, cocaine/amphetamine euphoria




Since I've already interupted this flow of discussion, I might as well add one more comment. This reference to cocaine/amphetamine euphoria in the context in which it was used is suggestive of the nature of George W. Bush's sympathetic ear to fundamentalist Christians. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefivepointer
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Registered: 08/03/02
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Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5151193 - 01/07/06 06:05 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

Markos denies core gospel doctrine, therefore he is to be marked and Christians are to separate from him. Christians are not called to endlessly bicker with a known heretic, but admonish, and if no correction is seen, separate. All who associate with him and call him "brother", they partake of his wickedness by speaking spiritual peace to him. They to are to be marked and avoided.


2Joh 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Tit 3:10 11 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Gal 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

1Jo 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5151216 - 01/07/06 06:19 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

:rofl2: Are you ready to take your scriptural advice and leave, seeing that we take no heed of your holy righteous admonishment? The PTL folks are in need of your "glad up to heaven" presence. :bye:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/07/06 06:20 PM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5151311 - 01/07/06 06:56 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

George Bush is not a Christian, read his statement on the death of Pope John Paul II.

President's Statement on the Death of Pope John Paul II

THE PRESIDENT: Laura and I join people across the Earth in mourning the passing of Pope John Paul II. The Catholic Church has lost its shepherd, the world has lost a champion of human freedom, and a good and faithful servant of God has been called home.

Note - "and a good and faithful servant of God has been called home."

He calls a man who has headed the largest antichristian church in the world a "good and faithful servant of God". Bush has denied core gospel doctrine by speaking peace to someone who teaches the false gospel of Roman Catholicism. This exposes where George Bush stands spiritually.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5151385 - 01/07/06 07:21 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

George Bush is not a Christian





You have now said one thing I can agree with. Which surprises the Hell :hellfire: out of me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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