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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3456541 - 12/06/04 07:26 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

those are two huge hurtles to overcome...but isn't everyone on their own path to begin with?


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
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Re: My beef with christianity [Re: tekramrepus]
    #3456727 - 12/06/04 07:59 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

It is your choice again to believe whatever YOU want to believe, but it doesn't partake of the reality of a 1st century Jewish Holy Man, Incarnation of the Logos or not. I was a vegan when I was young, for 3.5 years or so, until I simply realized that all of us are on the Great Chain of Being, and that puts us higher up on the food chain as well. Recent news reports of a so-called Kosher slaughterhouse was in horrible violation of simple Compassion. Kosher killing forbids the stunning of beef cattle, and their butchery was anything but humane. My particular constitution suffers without animal food, but I respect ethical vegetarianism. Meat eating was not a daily event in Biblical times, and it was received, as I receive it, with thanksgiving - not only of GOD, but of the creature whose life was taken for ME. It is unrealistic in the max to envision the USA overrun by cattle like India is.
Until you come to terms with your own mortality and the very brutality of life and death, you will have to be a spiritual babe fed with milk. Meat is for the spiritually mature, contrary to your sentiments. The Tibetan Buddhists eat yak as well BTW.

As to your disavowel of Jesus' Jewishness: you are wrong, plain and simple. In fact, this claim underlies practically every anti-Jewish movement from antiquity, through Nazism to present attempts. There is no Jesus of the Bible without the historical milieu from which He emerged. Little is known about the specifics of the person, but He did not teach that "god [sic] is EVERYTHING," for that is pantheism. If you want to go about in denial, and fantasize about a person of your own invention, then that is your choice, but it will not help you develop spiritually to force Reality to fit YOUR conceptions. The task is for you to humbly acknowledge elements that your own young ego finds so difficult to bow to. The difficulty with adolescence - even protracted adolescence is to believe that 'I am right and the world is wrong,' or worse, 'I know and YOU don't!' You are attempting 'a' Gnostic point of view among others, wherein YHWH is a demiurge/creator, but not Ultimate Reality. OK, that's your choice yet again, but it is not the GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that Jesus preached. Jesus wasn't a Gnostic. Gnosticism developed after the death of Jesus as an attempt to define early Christianity. I am obviously sympathetic to much of their mystical, self-realizable theologies, and their departure from the full mythological storyline of orthodox Christianity, but Gnostics lost the battle for how Christianity is to be defined. Your doctrine is just your doctrine. I know the traditional doctrines, but I am interested in TRUTH.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineJacquesCousteau
Being.
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Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
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Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: kaiowas]
    #3456764 - 12/06/04 08:09 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
those are two huge hurtles to overcome...but isn't everyone on their own path to begin with?




Absolutely. And I was thinking about this as I wrote the last post. Didn't want to get too into it, since it was a pretty drastic change of subject, but...

With acceptance comes the realization that things are the way they are and this is how things have and will unfold. It was "meant" to be because it HAS been.

In light of this I come to a bit of transcendence as I realize that the very act of trying to dismiss ANY aspect of the world as non-beneficial TO the world is absurd. It simply IS. It doesn't affect the world negatively that the Bible is interpretted incorrectly.. it is simply part of the fabric that creates time-space, and it is part of the journey for all of us to overcome.

Without these obstacles in our path, what purpose would we have? What would we have to overcome? And how much less deeply defined would each of us be as a person at the end of it all?

Call it what you want.. necessary evil? "All things work together for the greater good?" These can be boiled down to a simple concept that relates DIRECTLY to transcendance of duality: Without the bad, you cannot have the good. Without the good, you cannot have the bad.

At any given moment in your life, you have the right to choose to either adhere to duality or NOT adhere to duality. Think of it as a light-switch on your brain.

Happy situation occurs--set the switch to duality--now you can bask in the emotional satisfaction of a happy situation.

Something bad happens--set the switch to ABOVE-duality-- now you can remain in peace and rest despite being in a hostile situation.

Meditation is a prime example.

So is prayer. Think on that.

Something bad happens..

one person counts to 10 like their therapist says... and feels better about it.

one person prays, and feels better about it.

Another meditates... and feels better about it.

Another goes for a long drive.. and feels better about it.

Another exercises or punches a punching bag.. and feels better about it.

They are all forms of mental rest... but the thing is, only certain ones openly acknowledge the active switching of modes.

If you do not actively ackowledge and remain aware of the mental switch, you cannot control it.

Ho boy... what a mouthful...

Edited by JacquesCousteau (12/06/04 08:20 PM)

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: tekramrepus]
    #3457428 - 12/06/04 09:58 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

supermarket said:
2. You only live one life.    In the bible, there is a WONDERFUL example of reincarnation (John the baptist, who was Elijah in a previous life) yet christians time and time again denounce the idea of reincarnation.  Talk about absurd....







I would have delt with all of your points as most of them are very incorrect in the eyes of this Christian but, I will deal with this one for sure :thumbup: As it is very incorrect.



In this passage you will see that John is described as being in the spirit and power of Elijah.......meaning that he will very much like him in the ways that he is crazy for god just as Elijah was. They both were fanatics for God

Luke 1: 15-17
15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.[1] 16 Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God. 17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."



In this passage you can plainly see that John in fact does not say that he is Elijah


JOHN 1: 19-23

19 Now this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, "I am not the Christ.[1] "
21They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?"
He said, "I am not."
"Are you the Prophet?"
He answered, "No."
22Finally they said, "Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?"
23John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.' "[2]



John the Bapsist was a very Godly man but was not in fact a reincarnation of anyone. :thumbup:

You have the facts wrong


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleCherryBomM
Yoga Gypsy
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Registered: 12/26/98
Posts: 11,177
Loc: Ontario
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3457444 - 12/06/04 10:01 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
You have the facts wrong




Does he really? Or perchance his perception is different then your own and neither of you are right.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: tekramrepus]
    #3457462 - 12/06/04 10:06 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

supermarket said:
1. Their only book of reference is the Bible. It is well known this book has been revised and edited many times, and many books were left out of the compilation of the "bible". Not to mention the bible contains the OLD TESTAMENT....which really had nothign to do with jesus considering he was neither jewish, nor believed in the God "YahWeh"






We as Christaians are in fact FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST so we have his teaching to read. Yes there are many books that are " Lost " Yes many men have had there hands on it. That is why we have the Holy Spirit and Gods wisdom to know the difference.

And yes the Old testament does in fact speak of the coming of Jesus. The old testament is full of Godly wisdom and knowledge. So your point is kinda mute. And Jesus did in fact talk about God. MANY TIMES LOL...........Yah weh is a old name for God.


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: CherryBom]
    #3457475 - 12/06/04 10:08 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CherryBomb said:
Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
You have the facts wrong




Does he really?  Or perchance his perception is different then your own and neither of you are right.




Excuse me ? Can you not read ? 21They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?"
He said, "I am not."

I am shocked sometimes as to what people say around here. I give the passage and JOHN himself  says THAT HE IN NOT ELIJAH and yet you say something like that.


That is crazy :rolleyes:


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: tekramrepus]
    #3457538 - 12/06/04 10:23 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

supermarket said:
3.  Jesus died for our sins, thus freeing us.    No.  Jesus was murdered because he refused to tell a lie (He would not say what they wanted him to).  His death did not HAVE to occur in that mannner.  But then again, if I was one of the people who murdered jesus, I'd probably try to make it look like it was meant to be also!    The truth behind jesus "Dying for our sins" is that he came to earth, lived and showed an example contrary to the current establishment, and gave his life up in order to show Truth. He willingly surrendered his life.

"





You have not taken the time to even know why Jesus was killed. I suggest that you should do some study here is a good place to start. :smile:
It is a bit more complex than that :thumbup:

Matthew 26


Before the Sanhedrin

57Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas, the high priest, where the teachers of the law and the elders had assembled. 58But Peter followed him at a distance, right up to the courtyard of the high priest. He entered and sat down with the guards to see the outcome.
59The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. 60But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward.
61Finally two came forward and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.' "
62Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[1] the Son of God."
64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66What do you think?"
"He is worthy of death," they answered.
67Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him 68and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"

Matthew 27

15Now it was the governor's custom at the Feast to release a prisoner chosen by the crowd. 16At that time they had a notorious prisoner, called Barabbas. 17So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, "Which one do you want me to release to you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?" 18For he knew it was out of envy that they had handed Jesus over to him.
19While Pilate was sitting on the judge's seat, his wife sent him this message: "Don't have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him."
20But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed.
21"Which of the two do you want me to release to you?" asked the governor.
"Barabbas," they answered.
22"What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked.
They all answered, "Crucify him!"
23"Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate.
But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"
24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"
25All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"
26Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.




If you go to these passages in your nearest on line bible on read before and after you will get a much better understanding of the reasons why men decided to kill him. But basicly they just wanted to shut him up. But the reasons on man to kill Jesus are not the point.

Here is a great link...........http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible


Would you like some direction to find the words of Jesus himself as to why he must die this way ? :laugh: I would be glad to point them out for you


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Offlinebobbyrox
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Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 22
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: tekramrepus]
    #3457847 - 12/06/04 11:27 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

AS you might have realized if you were not ignorant, or oblivious to put it a little more lightly, RELIGION IS NOT BASED ON TRUTH.

RELIGIOUS VALUES AND MORALITY ARE ALL BASED ON FAITH.

FAITH MEANS the belief in something that cannot be proven by reason
( a priori reason) but is instead true because of the faithholders subjective experience that told them it was true. Faith means believin in something that you can't prove objectively. A faith can never be true since it is subjective.


There are many implications that arise when one realizes that religious teachings aren't based on reason. SUCH AS:


HOw can religion be taught if the process of teaching involves making another understand through reason alone.

REligion can never teach


it can only encourage one to experience their faith.


NOw, another thing which arises, is that all faiths (all religions) are not true. This is because faith means believing in something you can't objectively prove to be real. faith is a subjective experience. remember this.

IF one cannot prove their religion to be real by using objective evidence, like reason, then why should anyone ever believe in a religion when they are taught it?

ONE CANNOT TEACH A RELIGION. NOR CAN ONE PROVE IT TO BE TRUe.

SINCE TRUTH ITSELF IS SOMETHING THAT IS OBJECTIVE, AND UNIVERSAL. RELIGOUS TRUTH CAN BE TAUGHT


THerefore religions must face up to this fact.

___________________________________________________------\\


IF i come out to be quite harsh, i only do so so as to make religious teachers cease to use their ways of teaching through reason or a common consesus/will.

I want a religion that will be able to express their truth by expelling my ignorance and make me aware of the truth that lie in it.

relgions must oversome the barrier. teaching relgion logically.

RELIGION IS NOT LOGICAL. FAITH TRANSCENDS REASON AND LOGIC.

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Registered: 09/25/03
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Re: My beef with christianity [Re: tekramrepus]
    #3457877 - 12/06/04 11:33 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

4. Jesus ate meat. I'm sorry, but no matter how many scriptures will say he was a meat-eater, I find this false and innacurate. YES, he might have served fish and bread....but I do not believe jesus would ingest meat on a regular basis. Perphaps he did once or twice. I do believe one of the commandments was "Though shall not kill". I tend to follow the essene christianity thought-stream, in which jesus was a practicing Fruitarian, and would not iniatate anyone into his inner circle unless they gave up this dense act.





Actually.. the phrase is more accurately "Thou shalt not murder". Killing's ok -- killing people is ok. I'm not exactly a bible scholar or anything, but if I remember things right.. Jesus personally promised exactly one person that they would go to heaven, that person being a soldier.


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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3458161 - 12/07/04 12:37 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

The difference between Killing and Murder is Intent.


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3458218 - 12/07/04 12:53 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Is that all? The end-result is unimportant?

So someone you love is killed in car by a sloppy drunk and then it is A-OK? The drunk made a selfish decision, just like an armed robber who "does not intend" to kill anyone during the act. What about a soldier who "accidentally" kills a civilian?

Let's see, which would impact you more, a loved one intentionally punched in the face (evil intent) or a loved one "accidentally" killed (no intent)?

I don't believe in accidents. I could NEVER accidentally shoot anyone as I don't own a gun. Simple, eh?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: Swami]
    #3458286 - 12/07/04 01:07 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

This is a very difficult thing to understand. I do not fully grasp the entire content of what God has taught me about murder and killing. I would say I have much to learn.

But I see your point. Is the intent of a drunk to kill when they get in a car wreck ? No but then again we all are very aware of the possibility what may happen. So it may be that yes a drunk who kills with a Car may be guilty of Murder. Yes I think he is.

No Swami it is not a simple thing to understand. Lucky for me I have God to worry about such things.

But Fucknuckle wishes to know for sure.............. :smirk:


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3458334 - 12/07/04 01:19 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

To find out fer sure, I will need two volunteers for the "Swami Murderous Intent Challenge"...  :crazy:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: Swami]
    #3458353 - 12/07/04 01:25 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Go over to OTD you will find some worthy volunteers.......... :lol: :oogle:


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada Flag
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3458544 - 12/07/04 03:59 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

As i think you know man i share your beliefs and your faith in Jesus and via Him, God. I will confess to being a little(?)  :confused: by the following, perhaps you could please be so good as to shed some light on this or was it merely a typo?

I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say..... all of true spirituality is so unreal (because it is so incredibly real)


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada Flag
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3458549 - 12/07/04 04:08 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Okay sorry, just waking up here  :yesnod:


I think maybe when you said "unreal" you meant so amazing? :smile:

I think the main point a lot of people miss when expecting miracles in their life is that they demand God perform them B4 they accept the Gift of Salvation through Jesus Christ,it's like: "Show ME first, then i'll believe" it doesn't work that way  :wink:


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Offlinezahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3458554 - 12/07/04 04:20 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I agree.

One has to fear God before God reveals to them that they have nothing to fear.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada Flag
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3458561 - 12/07/04 04:31 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

That was very well put my friend. I would have quoted you but i think i've seen enough of that pic to last me for a LONG time :grin:


And to think of all the sicker than thou pics i used to post in OTD, sheesh  :crazy:


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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OfflineIcebergMcNasty
Stranger
Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 22
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: My beef with christianity [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3458603 - 12/07/04 05:05 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds like ld50negative1 has had some contact with the witnesses.
For a long time I've had alot of problems with religion. People claiming to worship god and doing some pretty messed up stuff.

I've since learned that just because someone goes to church, or reads the bible, or even someone like myself who has some accurate knowledge of the bible doesnt mean they are doing what God would have them. It would seem by our actions that we dont worship the true God (whose name happens to be Jehovah), but the God of this world satan.

It sucks because just knowing what God wants is far from enough.

Here are some things I believe to be true, and backed by scripture:

Jesus was Jehovahs first creation.

Jesus is a seperate entity.

The holy spirit is Jehovahs active force.

Jesus came to earth to teach us the truth about Jehovah, to maintain perfect integrity providing a model for us to follow, and to sacrifice his life to set us free from sin and death.

Jesus died and was resurrected by Jehovah as a spirit and returned to heaven.

Satan has a huge grip on this world. He is very sneaky, very subtle, and very very smart.( He's been watching us since the begining of our existence, so I think he knows how to get us.)

Jehovah will see that the truth is told to all the inhabited earth, and then the end of this system of things will come.

The righteous and the unrighteous will be resurected for judgement but the wicked will be destroyed.

Satan eventually will be destroyed after a 1000 year imprisonment.

Jesus will rule as king of the earth along with 144,000 in heaven.

The earth will be a paradise and those who "follow the rules" will live forever on it. (Satan and his fallen angels will all be destroyed so this will probably be a whole lot easier).

Somethings God hates:

Fornication:
Sex before marriage, adultery, beastiality, incest, and(this one might piss some people off) homosexuality.

Lying, Gambling, Stealing:
Remember this whole thing started with satan lying to eve telling her she wouldnt die if she ate that fruit. Gambling aka bingo.

Fits of Anger, Violence

Magical Spells and Spiritism:
Any power behind this comes from satan and his demons.

Drunkenness:
This one always gets me =)


I figured since I'm such a sinner the least I could do was pass on some accurate knowledge. The only people I've met who really practice what the bible teaches are a few Jehovahs witness, I can tell because the fruits they bear.

Cool topic

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