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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5123695 - 12/30/05 07:13 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Many posters have asserted that salvation can happen without belief of the gospel. There is no scripture that will support this notion, but a great many scriptures clearly state that no one is saved apart from conversion and faith.

There he goes, assuming that everyone on the planet holds and/or must hold "The Bible" and "sacred scripture" in high regard.

Why should anyone care about what the Bible says, really?


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5123787 - 12/30/05 07:45 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Many posters have asserted that salvation can happen without belief of the gospel. There is no scripture that will support this notion, but a great many scriptures clearly state that no one is saved apart from conversion and faith.

There he goes, assuming that everyone on the planet holds and/or must hold "The Bible" and "sacred scripture" in high regard.


The objection was from self-proclaimed "Christians" that salvation can happen without faith. Therefore it is proper to assume that they have some scriptural backing for such a position, which they do not. Sure the world does not value scripture, but true Christians always value it to the highest degree.

Why should anyone care about what the Bible says, really?

Because God wrote it, you should care what it says.


Edited by fivepointer (12/30/05 07:50 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5123806 - 12/30/05 07:50 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Many posters have asserted that salvation can happen without belief of the gospel. There is no scripture that will support this notion, but a great many scriptures clearly state that no one is saved apart from conversion and faith.

I want to clarify something, conversion and faith are NOT causes of salvation, they are evidences of salvation. The cause of salvation is the work of Jesus Christ to justify His people, all those who where given to Him by the Father from before the foundation of the world, He gives every spiritual blessing to them, washes them in His own blood, and presents them without blemish in love. Grace is not based on what a person does, it is despite what a person does. Those who would condition salvation on what someone does are not justified by grace, they are seeking justification through the works of the law, and no flesh is ever justified by works of the law. They are attempting to establish righteousness outside of Jesus Christ, and are ignorant of God's righteousness. This is not a minor detail, this is the foundation of most false gospels that rear their ugly heads in Christendom.

Sin is a breakage of the law, sin can only break a person, expose wickedness, and expose the true nature of a fallen man. All those who are thirsting for righteousness, heavy burdened with sin, who are shown that they are wretched, broke and broken, (the Spirit convicts His people of sin, righteousness and judgement), will be delivered, and drink of the everlasting fountain, and be called to eat without money or price. Salvation is by glorious free grace to completely hell deserving sinners.




IMHO you have no proof whatsoever of the non-sense you are talking. You are just a mouth piece for a disease of self hate. I pity you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5123808 - 12/30/05 07:53 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)



The objection was from self-proclaimed "Christians" that salvation can happen without faith. Therefore it is proper to assume that they have some scriptural backing for such a position, which they do not. Sure the world does not value scripture, but true Christians always value it to the highest degree.



why should a true christian value the words of scripture over the the living word that can be attained through a direct relationship with God?


Edited by Deviate (12/30/05 07:54 PM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Deviate]
    #5123828 - 12/30/05 08:04 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

why should a true christian value the words of scripture over the the living word that can be attained through a direct relationship with God?

The Spirit leads His people into all truth, and gives confirmation by witness to the believers spirit, that they are God's children. No experience of a Christian will ever be contrary to the scriptures.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5123842 - 12/30/05 08:10 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

the scriptures have been interpreted in more ways than one so the experience of a christian could indeed be contrary to certain interpretations.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5123943 - 12/30/05 08:55 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

No experience of a Christian will ever be contrary to the scriptures.
Uh uh, big (miss-)assumption. Even Jesus Christ breakes with specific OT-scriptures...
But..on the other hand, without the sciptures, where would Jesus had been ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5124004 - 12/30/05 09:10 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Many posters have asserted that salvation can happen without belief of the gospel. There is no scripture that will support this notion, but a great many scriptures clearly state that no one is saved apart from conversion and faith.

There he goes, assuming that everyone on the planet holds and/or must hold "The Bible" and "sacred scripture" in high regard.


The objection was from self-proclaimed "Christians" that salvation can happen without faith.  Therefore it is proper to assume that they have some scriptural backing for such a position, which they do not.  Sure the world does not value scripture, but true Christians always value it to the highest degree.

Why should anyone care about what the Bible says, really?

Because God wrote it, you should care what it says.




How do you know God wrote it?  Because the Bible says so?  What if you don't care about the Bible?  What if you don't care about GOD?  Why should a human care about God anyway?  Are you supposed to put your absolute trust into a single book "because it says so?" 

Why would you do something a book tells you to do?  Why would you get so obsessed over OBEYING a BOOK just because some of its authors claimed that god wrote it?  What makes them more believable then someone else?  Anyone can claim that GOD speaks to them and then write a story about it.  Why do you trust a book written by human beings when you could simply look for the answers yourself? 

Isn't that a little silly to do something a book tells you to do?  Where's the joy in doing something "because the Bible tells me to do it?"  Isn't it better to look at every situation with fresh eyes, try to draw unbiased conclusions from it?  Instead you wring everything through your Bible filter.  We all have filters, but I rely on my own personal experiences rather then having a book tell me what to do. 

I have never understood the weird fixation Christians have for the Bible.  :confused:  It's just a book.  It sits on my shelf next to Be Here Now, a book about druids, and the Tao Te Ching.  The teachings inside are not confined by the pages, but can be experienced every day. So what's the big deal about the Bible, anyway?  Why should anyone care about a book?  It claims it was written by God?  Big deal, the author obviously had a huge ego. 

To be honest, I wish I'd written the Bible myself.  Controversey makes for a good story.  I did once have a goal to write the 'second Bible' and have a religion formed around my story, but I thought that idea was a little optimistic. 

And I realized, well, it's already been done, so it's clearly not impossible.


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OfflineCUBErt
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5124052 - 12/30/05 09:28 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
No experience of a Christian will ever be contrary to the scriptures.




Scripture contradicts itself, and thus parts of the faith do as well.

For instance, most Christians I know are against the use of psychedelics, eating mushrooms for instance. They say it is against God's rules.
But in Matthew 15:11, Jesus says, "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."
Some would say I am taking that verse out of context, but Christians do that sort of thing all the time  :cool:


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5124305 - 12/30/05 10:59 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

How do you know God wrote it? Because the Bible says so?

Because the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me, and every believer, this is the gift of faith that He gives His people. And the scriptures do assert that God the Holy Spirit did indeed write it, and it is the Word of God.

What if you don't care about the Bible? What if you don't care about GOD?

This is evidence of being unregenerated. If this continues until you die, or until Christ should return, you will face the law without mercy, and righteous judgement will be applied, the result is everlasting punishment under the wrath of God.

Why should a human care about God anyway?

God created all things, the universe, and humans, and things unseen, so I think you should care about God.

Are you supposed to put your absolute trust into a single book "because it says so?

Not the books of men, but you should absolutely trust in a book that was written by the Creator.

To be honest, I wish I'd written the Bible myself. Controversey makes for a good story. I did once have a goal to write the 'second Bible' and have a religion formed around my story, but I thought that idea was a little optimistic.
And I realized, well, it's already been done, so it's clearly not impossible.


One man could not have written it, it took many men about 1500 years to write it, and it has pure message throughout it, because God the Holy Spirit wrote it through these men. Not only that but God preserves it by Divine providence.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5124376 - 12/30/05 11:18 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I often find your interpretations of Christianity to be quite intellectually palatable. I have been surrounded by fundamentalists too long.




Thank you for the compliment.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5124381 - 12/30/05 11:20 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
How do you know God wrote it? Because the Bible says so?

Because the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me, and every believer, this is the gift of faith that He gives His people. And the scriptures do assert that God the Holy Spirit did indeed write it, and it is the Word of God.

What if you don't care about the Bible? What if you don't care about GOD?

This is evidence of being unregenerated. If this continues until you die, or until Christ should return, you will face the law without mercy, and righteous judgement will be applied, the result is everlasting punishment under the wrath of God.

Why should a human care about God anyway?

God created all things, the universe, and humans, and things unseen, so I think you should care about God.

Are you supposed to put your absolute trust into a single book "because it says so?

Not the books of men, but you should absolutely trust in a book that was written by the Creator.

To be honest, I wish I'd written the Bible myself. Controversey makes for a good story. I did once have a goal to write the 'second Bible' and have a religion formed around my story, but I thought that idea was a little optimistic.
And I realized, well, it's already been done, so it's clearly not impossible.


One man could not have written it, it took many men about 1500 years to write it, and it has pure message throughout it, because God the Holy Spirit wrote it through these men. Not only that but God preserves it by Divine providence.




All your responses are contingent upon believing in the Bible in the first place.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5124434 - 12/30/05 11:36 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Of course my words are only interpretations, what else could they be? Not only are scriptures interpretations, they are interpretations of interpretations. So I am interpreting interpretations of interpretations. The goal is for clarity of Truth and Truth is not found in mankind's symbolic (language) interpretation of the primal Experience of Reality (where Reality = Truth).

The Spirit in Letter is really taken to the limit in Islam where the Qur'an is the actual Word of G-D incarnate, equivalent to the Pagan Johannine Christ in which 'The Word was made flesh.' Idolatry both. The Spirit is intangible to Mind [Nous] and seems 'empty' or 'void' or 'nothing' [no-thing] to the Mind. The nature of Mind to grasp, is what creates the 'golden calf' of written words and mythic images upon which to rest. Otherwise, it would find itself 'free-floating' like an infant placed on a glass table, and panic! The other alternative is to involute - go into itself, at which point it would discover the real meaning of the Greek word 'Pan,' (as in Pan-ic) which is 'All.' The Mind realizing that it is unbounded, finds that it is indistinguishable from its Source. Realization of its identity as Spirit is Gnosis - 'the mind of Christ.' This is a Gnostic interpretation of Christian writings. Take it or leave it.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5124596 - 12/31/05 12:45 AM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Take it or leave it.

If the mind is indistinguishable from its
Source there can be no realization, until it can
once again distinguish. Since it does not lose the ability to distinguish
it must. Since it must, it is distinguishable.


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Offlinekeefboy
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: falcon]
    #5124674 - 12/31/05 01:22 AM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Elle is pretty much on point on this one.

the threat of hell is one of the 5 main brainwashing techniques employed by missionaries or anyone that tries to force their beliefs on non-christians.

9*********<-----my kitten wrote that

they get kids while their young and naive with things like hell and eternal torment. all it does it lead to people acting shitty towards each other because they care about the next life and not this one. after all, as long as they repent for their sins they will be A-ok.


--------------------
"A friend of mine was famous for holding his hits until his face swelled up and turned bright red. The veins in his neck and forehead would bulge and he'd get bug-eyed. He'd start sweating. Then he'd belch the hit out violently, along with plenty of spit, and gasp for air." ~UBAKO


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5125692 - 12/31/05 12:53 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

So Fivepointer. I have a question for you. Can you answer honestly? Do you have any interest in the Shroomery and what it stands for? Do you use or believe it's ok to use psychedelics. Or, are you only here to spread the word of Jesus Christ and to proselytize for Christianity?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5125758 - 12/31/05 01:26 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Well, 100% of his posts are about Fundamental Christianity, so his mission seems pretty clear to me.  :shrug:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Veritas]
    #5125760 - 12/31/05 01:28 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

I want to hear it from him. Is he honest enough to proclaim his intent in being here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5126049 - 12/31/05 03:12 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

So Fivepointer. I have a question for you. Can you answer honestly?

Sure.

Do you have any interest in the Shroomery and what it stands for?

I do not really know what the Shroomery stands for, since most posters seem to come from many different backgrounds and beliefs. There isn't an official statement of Shroomery beliefs that all agree on. Before my conversion I would be considered a typical agnostic/atheist "Shroomerite", who experienced many things from the magnificent mushrooms. This is why I am here because I feel an affinity for those who were like myself prior to conversion.

Do you use or believe it's ok to use psychedelics?

One reason why a Christian would not use psychedelics is because they are illegal, and scripture tells Christians not to be disobedient to those who rule over them. (As long as the rule does not force Christians to be disobedient to God.)

Another reason why a Christian would not take psychedelics is because they are made a new creation and have no need of these experiences anymore.

Or, are you only here to spread the word of Jesus Christ and to proselytize for Christianity?

I will certainly testify to what I have experienced since the gospel truth shone into my heart in the hope that some others might also experience such a great thing.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5126092 - 12/31/05 03:27 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:


One reason why a Christian would not use psychedelics is because they are illegal, and scripture tells Christians not to be disobedient to those who rule over them. (As long as the rule does not force Christians to be disobedient to God.)





If there is any part of scripture that shows that the Bible is at best the word of God intepreted to fit the need of mankind, your above-quoted passage shows it perfectly.


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