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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5132870 - 01/02/06 10:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

HE DECENDED INTO HELL, is not in the bible. Check out the link, it's part of the teachings of the Catholic church.


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OfflineThrasher420x
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5132930 - 01/02/06 10:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Quote:

Thrasher420x said:
Quote:

CUBErt said:
The other day I was sitting with some friends downtown and we were approached by two young guys who stopped to ask us if we were 100% sure we would go to heaven if we died. I thought to myself "can anyone be 100% sure?" But I remained silent while they spoke with my other, blatantly anti-christian friends. Their whole deal was about accepting Jesus and asking us if we really had a concept of hell and if we really wanted to go there. When I began speaking, I explained that I had gone to Catholic school for 10 years and knew plenty about Christianity, but that I began to question the faith as I got older. (Now for the part that really bothered me) I started asking them about the legitimacy of other major religions like Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. I said that I considered myself Christian but that there are many other faiths that connect us all to the same God with many of the same basic moral standards. In reply they said that these religions were all missing Jesus Christ, the mid-point between us and God. So then I asked "what about people who live in isolation and never hear about Jesus? are they going to hell?" They said that the Bible says that everybody gets a chance to hear about God. I do not remember seeing that in the Bible but perhaps they were right. They used the Bible passage "I am the way, the truth, and the light. Nobody cometh unto the father except through me."

Anyways, since then I have just been feeling somewhat upset. My friend argued with them that Christianity is a bunch of paranoia, and I would consider myself a pretty paranoid person. I have been thinking alot:
-Wondering if I might be hell-bound
-Thinking of all the wonderful people on these boards and that I know in person who would be denied eternal bliss for believing something that is just as practical to them as Jesus Christ is to Christians.
-Coming to terms with the thought that I may have only remained Christian for so long for fear of hell.
-Wondering how a God of infinite wisdom could expect human beings all to jump on the same bandwagon when there are so many untrustworthy people around, especially in religion.

I was just wondering how other people felt about this issue, and hoping to gain some insight from those who are more well-read on spirituality then myself.





you know something like this happened to me and one of my friends while we were at the skate park he said when you die can you be 100% sure that you'll go to heaven then he hands us a little booklet and says well you can it was frightening kinda like an infomercial and we challenged his argument and he just struggled to come up with a response he was just completely dumb founded just standing there like a lifeless robot or something he was so brainwashed that he completely lost all hope he couldn't even come up with a legit statement to back up how he felt i mean this guy really needed to start questioning things that are presented to him and think for himself a little more




This guy must live near us man. Either that or fundamentalist Baptist churches across the globe have established a new marketing campaign.




I'm going with the globally established marketing campaign i mean how else are they going to ensure recruitment of new shitheads


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5133131 - 01/02/06 11:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Fear not, it is the hate-filled that are already children of Hell, children of wrath. Imagine basing one's life on a doctrine made by intellectual stooges of an emperor! Jesus wrote nothing down. He was not full of Himself, He was emptied of self. His words may have survived in some of the logia of Thomas, perhaps 'Q' and something in Mark. Everything else was elaboration, fabrication, insertion, creation. Christ is Logos if one believes, not the imperfect transformation into Greek fragments on parchment. Love G-D and your neighbor as yourself.

+++ Return thou to Hell all ye miscreants who threaten good people with the fear and hate of thy twisted souls - in the Name of Y'shua Ha Mashiach. Amen +++


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/03/06 07:40 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5133139 - 01/02/06 11:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Hey Markos, I'm sure you're aware of the Jesus Seminar. What are your thoughts on it, particularly their methods? Do you think that what they've done has any legitimacy?


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5133254 - 01/02/06 11:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:smile: Everything else was elaboration, fabrication, insertion, creation.

Else that is all. 

Without elaboration there is no understanding.
Without fabrication there is no structure.
Without insertion there is no belonging.
Without creation there is no growth.

Be thankful you are not a child of wrath, that stillness may comfort you,
and that their hell can not touch you.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Silversoul]
    #5134121 - 01/03/06 07:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The theologian Crossan and others are legitimate scholars who set out to determine how/when the NT writings were written and arranged. Another pioneer is John Shelby Spong whose book Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes is unparallelled in its scope of a single text.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: falcon]
    #5134131 - 01/03/06 07:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you. Yes, I am thankful throughout the day - not in a Pharasaic way but in quiet, inner-directed state of gratitude. "Set the controls for the heart of the sun [Son]..."


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: falcon]
    #5134885 - 01/03/06 03:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

falcon, thank you so much for the link ! I will check it out, as there are references to the bible there ! :heart:

fivepointer, catechism :smile: Doesn't that ring a bell within you ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineCUBErt
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Thrasher420x]
    #5135398 - 01/03/06 05:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Thrasher420x said:
you know something like this happened to me and one of my friends while we were at the skate park he said when you die can you be 100% sure that you'll go to heaven then he hands us a little booklet and says well you can



Yeah I forgot to mention we got the booklet as well :P
Great posts everyone, its been some interesting reading  :thumbup:


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5135405 - 01/03/06 05:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CUBErt said:
Quote:

Thrasher420x said:
you know something like this happened to me and one of my friends while we were at the skate park he said when you die can you be 100% sure that you'll go to heaven then he hands us a little booklet and says well you can



Yeah I forgot to mention we got the booklet as well :P
Great posts everyone, its been some interesting reading  :thumbup:




How is your fear about hell doing?  Do you still wonder if you are hell-bound?


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Offlineelaspeinreason
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5135427 - 01/03/06 05:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

even if you are " hell bound " , eventually we will all return to heaven ( if you believe in the chirstian word )
ya know it is actually quite an interesting story ( the whole satan/lucifer not bowing to humans etc. ) although i find it twisted by many of the different mystics and conquering bodies over time. basically what im trying to say is
... keep conscience clear, and have no fear.

why live any other type of life? be blissful.


--------------------
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one

Diploid said:
What's with proclaiming freedom by abridging freedom? That makes no sense.


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OfflineThrasher420x
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5135680 - 01/03/06 06:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not a believer of creationism, i think Darwin's evolutionary theory is more logical.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Thrasher420x]
    #5135792 - 01/03/06 07:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

BlueCoyote wrote:
"fivepointer, catechism Doesn't that ring a bell within you ? "

Honestly, no.

I was never raised with a catechism, I was raised with no religion at all.
I know of several Protestant catechisms, but I do not spend time reading them at all.


If your interested, I found a catechism that is good at:

http://www.the-faith.org.uk/gadsby.html

By William Gadsby (1773-1844)


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OfflineCUBErt
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5135943 - 01/03/06 08:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

EllemyshShade said:
How is your fear about hell doing?  Do you still wonder if you are hell-bound?




To be honest, I think I will always have that in the back of my mind. However, it has been very refreshing and comforting to hear different perspectives. Many of the ideas that have been expressed seem to be more in sync with the loving and understanding God that I have always known. Thank you for your concern Elle  :smile:

In addition to this, I have been thinking alot about various religions and how each of them seems to have different "miracles" (or whatever the particular faith calls them). For instance, the miracles that Jesus worked, and modern day miracles with people being healed, and what is going on with the kid who is supposedly the reincarnation of Buddha, or for instance something I saw on TV a while back about these statues of Ganesh in India that actually drank the milk that people served to them (was a while ago, not sure if it was a hoax or not). But anyways, my point is that all these different faiths have miracles or unexplainable happenings behind them. Perhaps the same God is behind every one of these occurences, in order to reaffirm people's different faiths and keep the path to heaven as diverse as possible.


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5136249 - 01/03/06 09:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

There is only ONE path and ONE gospel! Any other way is the way of death.

From "Who Hath Believed Our Report?"
http://www.godsonlygospel.com/Who%20Hath%20Believed%20Our%20Report2.htm

This is the prime evidence that God has come to a person and revealed Himself to them. Belief of the Gospel is of paramount importance because it is the evidence that God has graciously favored a person with His faith, which can only believe His Gospel. This is why if there is no saving faith there can be no salvation. Belief in a false gospel?an incomplete gospel is also classified as such?is the unmistakable sign that a person is not a child of God but a child of the Devil, for in believing a false gospel, one automatically rejects the true, showing that one has not been given the faith of God. "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:8); "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ (of Paul?s Gospel) let him be anathema..." (1 Cor. 16:22); "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God..." (2 Jn. 9); "...preach the Gospel to every creature...He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk. 16:15,16). And to those who scoff at what we say, who believe one can be saved without the Gospel of God, "...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST" (2 Thess. 1:7,8 cf. 1 Pet. 4:17). You will be rained on by the wrath of God who believe not His Gospel, for if you do not abide in the Doctrine of Christ the wrath of God abides on you (see 2 Jn. 9 & Jn. 3:36)!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5136429 - 01/03/06 10:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:rofl2: You're a hoot fivepointer. :thumbup:


Edited by Icelander (01/03/06 10:15 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5136487 - 01/03/06 10:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Come on, noone has any reference in the bible for Jesus being in hell after crucification, besides mine ?

Hey, how about this: Jesus was a Jew - Jews all go to Hell (along with Hindus, Buddhists, etc.) - therfore Jesus the Jew must go to Hell.

Oh, but Jesus was a unique Jew, the ONLY Jew who did not go to Hell permanently. No, wait, that's not logical. If Jesus took the OT righteous with Him, then there were other Jews who were only in Hell temporarily. But then, how is it that righteous men and women went to Hell? Oh, right, there is no salvation unless one believes in Jesus as the mouthpiece of the salvific doctrine. But everything that Jesus said came directly from the OT (except of course the Hellenistic stuff that was put into His mouth by the Biblical authors. It wasn't sufficient to come from a burning bush, a still small voice within, or the mouth of Balaam's jackass. One has to hear it anew from Y'shua, so He had to be born first. One could spin off such absurdities and illogic from a literal, linear, historical interpretation that one must either be mad or go mad in the process.

The Roman Catholics made this harrowing of Hell doctrine to allow Jesus (like Hermes decending into Hades in the Greek myth to rescue  Persephone, daughter of Demeter, The Earth Mother) to preach to those Old Testament figures who just couldn't go to G-D because the Eternal Logos had not been manifested as a human being in Jesus yet. So, they all waited a thousand years more or less, biding eternity in Sheol (Jewish, pre-Dantean Hell) until Jesus could take the astral elevator into the bowels of the Earth to rescue them. (Hey, there IS some internal logic to this ancient 'Dungeons & Dragons' type story, and it IS built out of the same archetypal elelments as the Greek myths [what a surprise]  :rolleyes:).

But enough of mythology and metaphysics. The real word is midrash.


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OfflineCUBErt
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5136985 - 01/04/06 01:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
There is only ONE path and ONE gospel! Any other way is the way of death.

From "Who Hath Believed Our Report?"
http://www.godsonlygospel.com/Who%20Hath%20Believed%20Our%20Report2.htm

This is the prime evidence that God has come to a person and revealed Himself to them. Belief of the Gospel is of paramount importance because it is the evidence that God has graciously favored a person with His faith, which can only believe His Gospel. This is why if there is no saving faith there can be no salvation. Belief in a false gospel?an incomplete gospel is also classified as such?is the unmistakable sign that a person is not a child of God but a child of the Devil, for in believing a false gospel, one automatically rejects the true, showing that one has not been given the faith of God. "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:8); "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ (of Paul?s Gospel) let him be anathema..." (1 Cor. 16:22); "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God..." (2 Jn. 9); "...preach the Gospel to every creature...He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk. 16:15,16). And to those who scoff at what we say, who believe one can be saved without the Gospel of God, "...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST" (2 Thess. 1:7,8 cf. 1 Pet. 4:17). You will be rained on by the wrath of God who believe not His Gospel, for if you do not abide in the Doctrine of Christ the wrath of God abides on you (see 2 Jn. 9 & Jn. 3:36)!




And Since there are many gospels that were never put into the Bible, or were modified first, one might consider all Bibles to be incomplete.

And what do you mean God has "graciously favored a person with his grace?" I disagree with statements like this and that whole predestination idea. If God only favors certain people, what is the point of living if you are not one of those people?


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5137087 - 01/04/06 01:38 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
There is only ONE path and ONE gospel! Any other way is the way of death.




I believe the best thing that can happen to a human is death. So that "this is the one way and all other ways are death" thing just doesn't frighten me anymore.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5137757 - 01/04/06 08:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

There is NO such thing as Biblical infallibility. It is not a myth, myths are universal truths portrayed in illustrative drama. Biblical infallibility idolatrously raised a created 'thing' to an ontological status that is 'uncreated.' In other words, the false doctrine of Biblical infallibility - as old and as powerful are its effects are even today for forming fanatics (not 'fans') - has attempted to turn an object, a book, into GOD. Then, the fanatic (one usually who does not complete normal developmental processes in one or more domains) fills the inner emptiness with archaic written content.

It is not sufficient to glean metaphysical 'possibilities,' those 'possibilities are clenched with the frenzy of psychological survival! Those writings become the very content of the intellectual and attendant emotional parts of the fanatic. Unfortunately, it also causes a paranoid inflation - and this is what every deviant cult leader uses to persuade his flock - it is as persuasive as was that most famous paranoid leader Adolph Hitler. The same processes, not necessarily the same agenda and world view. Paranoia is paranoia. To threaten the paranoid's belief is to threaten the paranoid himself. Unbelief is a personal affront and the emotional reaction is loud and clear! Meanwhile, such strength of intention can have far-reaching effects on the psyches of listeners, even eliciting guilt-ridden complexes buried since childhood about 'sin' and impending punishment (a childhood fear co-mingled with metaphysical horrors of Hell). Paranoia ends up addressing old doubts and fears going back to childhood while asserting some paternalistic authority which draws upon MALE figures of divinity (i.e., GOD, The Father, The Son [of Man, of GOD]).

I wish to clarify the mechanics of religious fundamentalist mentality and its effects upon those exposed to them. Their own lives are marked with destructive and self-destructive aspects (whether ascetic renunciant, flagellant, martyr or self-immolating bomber), and their effects on the lives of others is also destructive (if not deadly). Fanaticism is NOT faith it is pathology. Please be clear on that anyone who feels ill-effected.

Peace, Love and Freedom to Do Both,
Yours truly (in Christ),
Mark[ostheGnostic]


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/07/06 12:26 AM)


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