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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5126096 - 12/31/05 03:28 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Have you ever heard the story about the competition that the Wind had with the Sun? It is cute and profound at the same time.

A lone man, walking down a long country road was wearing an overcoat. The Wind challenged the Sun that he could make the man remove the overcoat that so defended him against the elements. The Sun consented. The Wind began to blow, first gently, but the man paid no heed. The Wind began to blower harder, and to howl louder and louder. At that point the man pulled up his collar, buttoned up his overcoat even more snuggly, and picked up his pace to avoid any more time in the Wind that was necessary. Then it was the Sun's turn. It just continued to be itself, it's true nature - it simply glowed, brightly, warmly, silently. Since the Wind's bluster has died down, the man began to feel the qualities of the Sun and unbuttoned his collar, then his coat, and in a very short time, the man had removed his overcoat, and not only that, he rolled up the sleeves of his shirt as he continued his way. The warm, quiet Sun had humbly bested the bold, blustery Wind which blew far away.

The NT very poignantly makes no association of the Sun with the Son (not counting the words about 'God causing the sun to shine on sinners and righteous alike'). Sol Invictus, the Sun, was the most widely held religious symbol in the Roman empire in the religion of Mithraism (the Taurobolium with the Mithraic ritual slaying of a bull was shown on the first episode of 'Rome' that aired on HBO recently). On the other hand, 'the Holy Spirit bloweth where it listeth' (KJV) indicating that the Wind [Air] and Spirit, both 'Pneuma' in Greek confounded physical air with metaphysical Spirit.

The wind is coextensive with the rest of the atmosphere, but as we know can compress into high pressure zones or vortices (dust devils, waterspouts, tornadoes - different degrees of power). In this way, Biblical metaphors about Spirit, which is seen to move, can 'move' (move emotionally or motivate) others, and can be conceived of with form, like a "cloven tongues like as of fire" (Acts 2:3 KJV). The NIV Bible says "They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them" - a more cautious description with no mention of a 'cloven tongue' because, no doubt, we all recognize that it is serpents and other reptilians who have 'cloven tongues' (and there has been a transition of the serpent from a symbol of wisdom to a symbol of "devilish wisdom" or evil). So in this connection "...be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves" (Matthew 10:16 KJV) the other 'form' that the Holy Spirit can take is a dove ("...and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him" Matthew 3:16 KJV)

When a Christian claims to be informed by the Holy Spirit, one can presume that they are not referring to metaphor alone, depicted as theophanies in the Bible, but to a real change in their consciousness. That change may translate into new values upon which to base one's life, and that change constitutes a religious experience. However, the legitimate boundaries of authority of religious experience ends with the experiencer. In other words, a religious experience can be embraced by the one having the experience, but that experience has no authority over other individuals. I may concede that someone has had a life-changing experience, but personally, I will look for the way an individual manifests that inner change in his/her demeanor, personality, actions (The Sun in my little story). I will be particularly wary of any individual who does more than share his/her experience with me - particularly if that extremely intimate experience is volunteered, not requested! Furthermore, I will be more than wary, I will experience obvious aggression from anyone who expects his/her personal religious experience to have any authority over MY life. THAT aggression is the social pathology behind every atrocity ever perpetrated in the name of GOD!

Thank you for tolerating the rant  :blush:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5126131 - 12/31/05 03:42 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

I will experience obvious aggression from anyone who expects his/her personal religious experience to have any authority over MY life. THAT aggression is the social pathology behind every atrocity ever perpetrated in the name of GOD!




Well said and worth a rant. :grin: It has been a life long sadness for me that the message in the life and words of Christ is used to seperate the human family with fear and mistrust. Fivepointer has used the Shroomery for this IMO unholy purpose for the last three years and in every one of his posts. I will challenge this use of our forums every time.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5126145 - 12/31/05 03:45 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Furthermore, I will be more than wary, I will experience obvious aggression from anyone who expects his/her personal religious experience to have any authority over MY life. THAT aggression is the social pathology behind every atrocity ever perpetrated in the name of GOD!

Thank you for tolerating the rant  :blush:




:smile:  That's what blows my mind the most...the fact that they feel EVERYONE should believe as they do.  :confused:  There's almost something loony about it.  The good news is that fundie Christians are fun to play with when you're writing, sort of like a Barbie that you can do anything to.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5126154 - 12/31/05 03:48 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Markos, you are probably the most eloquent, kind-hearted Christian I have ever met. If more religious folk were as understanding and tolerant as you are, I have a feeling that religion wouldn't carry the stigma that it does today.

Kudos to you!

:heart:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5126217 - 12/31/05 04:07 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

EllemyshShade said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Furthermore, I will be more than wary, I will experience obvious aggression from anyone who expects his/her personal religious experience to have any authority over MY life. THAT aggression is the social pathology behind every atrocity ever perpetrated in the name of GOD!

Thank you for tolerating the rant  :blush:




:smile:  That's what blows my mind the most...the fact that they feel EVERYONE should believe as they do.  :confused:  There's almost something loony about it.  The good news is that fundie Christians are fun to play with when you're writing, sort of like a Barbie that you can do anything to.




Unfortunately, there is no "almost" about the lunacy  :sad: It is very real delusion like this article:

  The psychology behind suicide bombings
By Pierre Rho, French Documentary Filmmaker
On July 15, MSNBC's "Connected" program discussed the 7/7 London attacks. One of the guests was Pierre Rho, a French filmmaker who has filmed six documentaries on the intifada by going undercover in the Palestinian areas.

Pierre's upcoming film, "Suicide Killers," is based on interviews that he conducted with the families of suicide bombers and  would-be bombers in an attempt to find out why they do it. Pierre agreed to a request for a Q&A interview here about his work on the new film. Many thanks to Dean Draznin and Arlyn Riskind for helping to arrange this special interview.

What inspired you to produce "Suicide Killers," your seventh film?

I started working with victims of suicide attacks to make a film on PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) when I became fascinated with the personalities of those who had committed those crimes, as they were described again and again by their victims. Especially the fact that suicide bombers are all smiling one second before they blow themselves up.

Why is this film especially important?

People don't understand the devastating culture behind this unbelievable phenomenon. My film is not politically correct because it addresses the real problem-showing the real face of Islam. It points the finger against a culture of hatred in which the uneducated are brainwashed to a level where their only solution in life becomes to kill themselves and kill others in the name of a God whose word, as transmitted by other men, has became their only certitude.

What insights did you gain from making this film? What do you know that other experts do not know?

I came to the conclusion that we are facing a neurosis at the level of an entire civilization. Most neuroses have in common a dramatic event, generally linked to an unacceptable sexual behavior. In this case, we are talking of kids living all their lives in pure frustration, with no opportunity to experience sex, love, tenderness or even understanding from the opposite sex. The separation between men and women in Islam is absolute. So is contempt toward women, who are totally dominated by men. This leads to a situation of pure anxiety, in which normal behavior is not possible. It is no coincidence that suicide killers are mostly young men dominated subconsciously by an overwhelming libido that they not only cannot satisfy but are afraid of, as if it is the work of the devil. Since Islam describes heaven as a place where everything on earth will finally be allowed, and promises 72 virgins to those frustrated kids, killing others and killing themselves to reach this redemption becomes their only solution.

What was it like to interview would-be suicide bombers, their families and survivors of suicide bombings?

It was a fascinating and a terrifying experience. You are dealing with seemingly normal people with very nice manners who have their own logic, which to a certain extent can make sense since they are so convinced that what they say is true. It is like dealing with pure craziness, like interviewing people in an asylum, since what they say, is for them, the absolute truth. I hear a mother saying "Thank God, my son is dead." Her son had became a shaheed, a martyr, which for her was a greater source of pride than if he had became an engineer, a doctor or a winner of the Nobel Prize. This system of values works completely backwards since their interpretation of Islam worships death much more than life. You are facing people whose only dream, only achievement is to fulfill what they believe to be their destiny, namely to be a shaheed or the family of a shaheed.

They don't see the innocent being killed, they only see the impure that they have to destroy.

You say suicide bombers experience a moment of absolute power, beyond punishment. Is death the ultimate power?

Not death as an end, but death as a door open to the after life. They are seeking the reward that God has promised them. They work for God, the ultimate authority, above all human laws. They therefore experience this single delusional second of absolute power, where nothing bad can ever happen to them, since they become God's sword.

Is there a suicide bomber personality profile? Describe the psychopathology.

Generally kids between 15 and 25 bearing a lot of complexes, generally inferiority complexes. They must have been fed with religion. They usually have a lack of developed personality. Usually they are impressionable idealists. In the western world they would easily have become drug addicts, but not criminals. Interestingly, they are not criminals since they don't see good and evil the same way that we do. If they had been raised in an Occidental culture, they would have hated violence. But they constantly battle against their own death anxiety. The only solution to this deep-seated pathology is to be willing to die and be rewarded in the after life in Paradise.

Are suicide bombers principally motivated by religious conviction?

Yes, it is their only conviction. They don't act to gain a territory or to find freedom or even dignity. They only follow Allah, the supreme judge, and what He tells them to do.

Do all Muslims interpret jihad and martyrdom in the same way?

All Muslim believers believe that, ultimately, Islam will prevail on earth. They believe this is the only true religion and their is no room, in their mind, for interpret ation. The main difference between moderate Muslims and extremists is that moderate Muslims don't think they will see the absolute victory of Islam during their life time, therefore they respect other beliefs. The extremists believe that the fulfillment of the Prophecy of Islam and ruling the entire world as described in the Koran, is for today. Each victory of Bin Laden convinces 20 million moderate Muslims to become extremists.

Describe the culture that manufactures suicide bombers.

Oppression, lack of freedom, brain washing, organized poverty, placing God in charge of daily life, total separation between men and women, forbidding sex, giving women no power whatsoever, and placing men in charge of family honor, which is mainly connected to their women's behavior.

What socio-economic forces support the perpetuation of suicide bombings?

Muslim charity is usually a cover for supporting terrorist organizations. But one has also to look at countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran, which are also supporting the same organizations through different networks. The ironic thing in the case of Palestinian suicide bombers is that most of the money comes through financial support from the Occidental world, donated to a culture that utterly hates and rejects the West (mainly symbolized by Israel).

Is there a financial support network for the families of the suicide bombers? If so, who is paying them and how does that affect the decision?

There used to be a financial incentive in the days of Saddam Hussein ($25,000 per family) and Yasser Arafat (smaller amounts), but these days are gone. It is a mistake to believe that these families would sacrifice their children for money. Although, the children themselves who are very attached to their families, might find in this financial support another reason to become suicide bombers. It is like buying a life insurance policy and then committing suicide.

Why are so many suicide bombers young men?

As discussed above , libido is paramount. Also ego, because this is a sure way to become a hero. The shaheeds are the cowboys or the firemen of Islam. Shaheed is a positively reinforced value in this culture. And what kid has never dreamed of becoming a cowboy or a fireman?

What role does the U.N. play in the terrorist equation?

The UN is in the hands of Arab countries and third world or ex-communists countries. Their hands are tied. The UN has condemned Israel more than any other country in the world, including the regime of Castro, Idi Amin or Kaddahfi.

By behaving this way, the UN leaves a door open by not openly condemning terrorist organizations. In addition, through UNRWA, the UN is directly tied to terror organizations such as Hamas, representing 65 percent of their apparatus in the so-called Palestinian refugee camps. As a support to Arab countries, the UN has maintained Palestinians in camps with the hope to "return" into Israel for more than 50 years, therefore making it impossible to settle those populations, which still live in deplorable conditions. Four-hundred million dollars are spent every year, mainly financed by U.S. taxes, to support 23,000 employees of UNRWA, many of whom belong to terrorist organizations (see Congressman Eric Cantor on this subject, and in my film "Hostages of Hatred").

You say that a suicide bomber is a 'stupid bomb and a smart bomb' simultaneously. Explain what you mean.

Unlike an electronic device, a suicide killer has until the last second the capacity to change his mind. In reality, he is nothing but a platform representing interests which are not his, but he doesn't know it.

How can we put an end to the madness of suicide bombings and terrorism in general?

Stop being politically correct and stop believing that this culture is a victim of ours. Radical Islamism today is nothing but a new form of Nazism. Nobody was trying to justify or excuse Hitler in the 1930s. We had to defeat him in order to make peace one day with the German people.

Are these men traveling outside their native areas in large numbers? Based on your research, would you predict that we are beginning to see a new wave of suicide bombings outside the Middle East?

Every successful terror attack is considered a victory by the radical Islamists. Everywhere Islam is expands there is regional conflict. Right now, their are thousands of candidates for martyrdom lining up in training camps in Bosnia, Afghanistan, Pakistan. Inside Europe, hundreds of illegal mosques are preparing the next step of brain washing to lost young men who cannot find a satisfying identity in the Occidental world. Israel is much more prepared for this than the rest of the world will ever be. Yes, there will be more suicide killings in Europe and the U.S. Sadly, this is only the beginning.

Christian or Muslim - it doesn't matter. All are asleep in 'The Matrix' of their own world-view and need to awaken from the deadly demonic delusions.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5126235 - 12/31/05 04:14 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Chilling...especially this line that worries me:


Quote:

we are facing a neurosis at the level of an entire civilization.




What can happen to a world if everyone has called the birds and gone crazy?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Redstorm]
    #5126253 - 12/31/05 04:18 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Well Redstorm, thank you for your vote of confidence  :smile: but I want you to know that I still curse out reckless drivers, I still can't shake some cultural prejudices here in Miami, and once I spanked my dog really badly  :sad: for s**tting all over my apartment. It is true however, that I would never tie a 'charming' or 'enchanting' young woman, who didn't want me, to a stake and set her on fire. I would probably just feel sad and rejected. I also do not make it a habit of telling my Jewish family members (my late parents included) that they are 'prepared for the devil and his angels' (although I have told people to "Go to Hell!," but that was just a figure of speech  :wink:

Peace,
MtG


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5126257 - 12/31/05 04:19 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

1930s Germany.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5126268 - 12/31/05 04:23 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

We all have our vices. I'm sure you, of all people, realize that. We can't be perfect all the time.

Thank YOU for reaffirming my faith in the fact that there is nothing wrong with religion. The problem is with those who interpret religion in ways which breed intolerance and hate.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Redstorm]
    #5126421 - 12/31/05 05:15 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

That's a mighty big compliment Redstorm - if I had a hand in providing some clarity for you, thanks for saying so!

Peace,
MtG


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5126700 - 12/31/05 06:30 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

MarkostheGnostic said:
Furthermore, I will be more than wary, I will experience obvious aggression from anyone who expects his/her personal religious experience to have any authority over MY life. THAT aggression is the social pathology behind every atrocity ever perpetrated in the name of GOD!

Icelander said:
Well said and worth a rant. It has been a life long sadness for me that the message in the life and words of Christ is used to seperate the human family with fear and mistrust. Fivepointer has used the Shroomery for this IMO unholy purpose for the last three years and in every one of his posts. I will challenge this use of our forums every time.

EllemyshShade said:
That's what blows my mind the most...the fact that they feel EVERYONE should believe as they do. There's almost something loony about it. The good news is that fundie Christians are fun to play with when you're writing, sort of like a Barbie that you can do anything to.


My personal religious experiences have absolutely NO authority on another person's life. I only testify to what I believe and why I believe it. The scriptures are very clear that all those who are ordained to eternal life will be converted and believe THE GOSPEL. All those that do not believe the gospel will be damned. God has predestinated who will be saved and who will be damned, based soley on His own purpose and pleasure alone. So there is no possibility that anything I do can alter the decrees of God. No true Christian would force another person to believe something by force, since only God can open the mind and apply the gospel to the heart. Many false "Christians" of the past, like those of the Roman Catholic Church have used force to physically destroy those that disagreed with them. This is just another attempt by the forces of darkness to discredit the true gospel.

I will not take the time to refute Markos with his subtle slanders, as his many damnable heresies are plain to see and he will not be corrected with scripture. Any further admonition would be pointless.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5126762 - 12/31/05 06:46 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
All those that do not believe the gospel will be damned.  God has predestinated who will be saved and who will be damned, based soley on His own purpose and pleasure alone.




Ugh, what a dick!  :mad2:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5126773 - 12/31/05 06:50 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:



My personal religious experiences have absolutely NO authority on another person's life. I only testify to what I believe and why I believe it. The scriptures are very clear that all those who are ordained to eternal life will be converted and believe THE GOSPEL. All those that do not believe the gospel will be damned. God has predestinated who will be saved and who will be damned, based soley on His own purpose and pleasure alone. So there is no possibility that anything I do can alter the decrees of God.




There seems to be a contradiction here.

Quote:

I will certainly testify to what I have experienced since the gospel truth shone into my heart in the hope that some others might also experience such a great thing.




Really though, I must say I don't believe you belong here at all. This site is not about your fundamentalist christian belief system and from checking your posts of the last three years that is the only subject you seem to have any knowledge of whatsoever. Why not head over to one of those PTL type sites where you can be "glad up to heaven" with all your think alike pals. I just want to help steer you in a direction where you might be a little appreciated. I mean I don't think many of us give a righteous shit about your hell and damnation and since anything you might say would not effect our salvation in the least maybe you should take a hike.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5126831 - 12/31/05 07:03 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

"God created most men simply with a view to crowd hell."


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5127167 - 12/31/05 08:31 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

I appreciate what you are trying to do, but I can't help but point out your error here fivepointer. You have fallen prey to the error of predestination.

This violates the goodness of God. God is the only thing which is truly and perfectly good. Every other thing is only good by analogy. A good God would not create people who were predestined for hell. If he did, he would not be good, and therefore would not be God. The True God does not require that anyone surrender his rational capacity to faith. True Christianity requires both faith and reason.

The Catholic (True and Universal) Church has rejected the heresy of predestination from the time of Jesus until today. This heresy begins with the theological problem of Divine Foreknowledge and Free Will, and is bolstered by the philosophical error of mechanical determinism. Both of these errors have been corrected.

In 900 AD a man named Boethius solved the problem of Divine Foreknowledge and Free Will in his short book The Consolation of Philosophy
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/boethius/boetrans.html

Mechanical determinism was scientifically defeated in the 19th century with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~imamura/208/jan27/hup.html

This is actually very complex stuff, and when anybody proposes a simple answer, like God predestines people to hell, that person is in error.

How could a loving father sentence one of his children to eternal agony? If he loved that person, and all Christians agree that God loves everybody, then would he not do everything in his (infinite) power to save that person?

The only way a person can end up in hell is if he refuses the mercy offered him by God. God allows this for two reasons: First he will not take back his gift of freedom; if a person rejects salvation, then God will not impose himself. Secondly, if God were to let assholes into heaven, then heaven would not be a place of perfect happiness; there would be assholes running around causing problems for every body. Consequently there is a Hell. It is a place where those who reject God's mercy are separated form those who accept it. What makes hell such a miserable place is that those in hell are in the company of all the other assholes who rejected mercy. There are no good people in hell. There are no cool people to hang with. Those in hell are assholes who torment each other for eternity.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5127441 - 12/31/05 10:21 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

i would apreciate it if markosthegnostic would comment on the free-will predestination controversey. i don't understand how certain sects of christianity can teach that God is good and that he predetermines most people to hell. the bible says "...God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3-4, NIV). if God's will is the only will in operation and God's will is for everyone to be saved, it is not possible for anyone not to be saved. since not everyone is saved we must conclude that there is some level of free will.

on the other hand there are parts of the bible that seem to support predermination. for example:


"For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses." (Josh 11:20)


"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5127468 - 12/31/05 10:31 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

I appreciate what you are trying to do, but I can't help but point out your error here fivepointer. You have fallen prey to the error of predestination.

It is not an error, it is clearly taught.

This violates the goodness of God. God is the only thing which is truly and perfectly good. Every other thing is only good by analogy. A good God would not create people who were predestined for hell. If he did, he would not be good, and therefore would not be God. The True God does not require that anyone surrender his rational capacity to faith. True Christianity requires both faith and reason.

The doctrine of predestination does not require someone to surrender rationality, it is perfectly consistent with God and all of His attributes.

The Catholic (True and Universal) Church has rejected the heresy of predestination from the time of Jesus until today.

These confessions and statements (see below) all affirm and defend predestination, the catholic (universal) church has always held to this doctrine. The Roman Catholic (False and Antichristian) has always denied the doctrine (see Council of Trent). The modern day apostate Protestant church has sided with Rome in this matter.

See the following Christian confessions and statements:
Augustine, A Treatise On The Predestination Of The Saints 428-9 AD
The Thirty-Nine Articles, (1571) (Church of England)
The Canons of Dordt (1618 A.D.)
The Belgic Confession (1618 A.D.)
The Heidelberg Catechism
First London Baptist Confession of Faith (1644, 1689)
The 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith
Gospel Standard Articles of Faith
1729 Goat Yard Declaration of Faith


This heresy begins with the theological problem of Divine Foreknowledge and Free Will, and is bolstered by the philosophical error of mechanical determinism. Both of these errors have been corrected.

In 900 AD a man named Boethius solved the problem of Divine Foreknowledge and Free Will in his short book The Consolation of Philosophy
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/boethius/boetrans.html

Mechanical determinism was scientifically defeated in the 19th century with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~imamura/208/jan27/hup.html

This is actually very complex stuff, and when anybody proposes a simple answer, like God predestines people to hell, that person is in error.


Philosophy books of men have no standing in determination of doctrine.
I will answer your objections to predestination using scripture (which is my sole and only authority).


How could a loving father sentence one of his children to eternal agony? If he loved that person, and all Christians agree that God loves everybody, then would he not do everything in his (infinite) power to save that person?

This begs the question, why send anyone to hell at all, why not just save everyone, why hinge in on some terms they must meet (which is what you teach)?
If all things are foreseen, and He sees a person not "accepting" (in the tunnel of time), why even let that person be created in the first place?

Does God love everyone without exception? No. Consider Romans 9, men are either a vessel of mercy or of wrath.
Many verses clearly show how election is not contingent on foreseen acts, but soley on God's good pleasure alone. I suggest you search on the words elect*, chosen, predestinat*, ordain* (KJV) for a small sample of verses on this subject.


The only way a person can end up in hell is if he refuses the mercy offered him by God. God allows this for two reasons: First he will not take back his gift of freedom; if a person rejects salvation, then God will not impose himself. Secondly, if God were to let assholes into heaven, then heaven would not be a place of perfect happiness; there would be assholes running around causing problems for every body. Consequently there is a Hell. It is a place where those who reject God's mercy are separated form those who accept it. What makes hell such a miserable place is that those in hell are in the company of all the other assholes who rejected mercy. There are no good people in hell. There are no cool people to hang with. Those in hell are assholes who torment each other for eternity.

What you are saying is salvation in contingent on meeting terms. This is classic salvation by works. You have reason to boast, you can boast in your acceptance, this makes you to differ from the damned, your works. Sinners have no works, they are ruined, saved sinners boast in the cross of Christ alone. This is the crux of false religion, self-righteous delusion and ignorance of God's righteousness.


Edited by fivepointer (12/31/05 10:33 PM)


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5127535 - 12/31/05 10:50 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
predestinated




:whistling:


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Invisibleshroomydan
exshroomerite
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5127571 - 12/31/05 11:12 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Well shit man.

Talking to fundamentalists is like talking to a wall. I had a friend once who said he didn't believe in dinosaurs because there was no mention of them in the Bible; he had seen the bones but still didn't believe.

You are free (or from your point of view predestined) to believe whatever you want. I'm not going to try to stop you. :tongue:

BTW
St. Augustine believed in free will, scripture only speaks of predestination toward heaven not hell, and the rest of your sources post-date the protestant break from Christian tradition. You might as well sight the Quaran.

My posts here are not an attempt to convert you or your fundamentalists friends (you guys will be fine); my intention is to present the ancient, authentic, Catholic perspective, so that those who reject the protestant heresy need not also reject Christ.

Peace brother,
I'll see you in purgatory if not before then. :wink:


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OfflineSchwammel
Auk

Registered: 12/10/05
Posts: 845
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5127572 - 12/31/05 11:14 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

better be careful for waht you wish for...

i sure as hell wouldn't want to be living with jesus

for eternity..

besides "jesus" is just the same as " jes us"

can you imagine dying and going to heaven
and there ain't nobody ther named jesus?


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