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Christianity and the threat of Hell
    #5120801 -

The other day I was sitting with some friends downtown and we were approached by two young guys who stopped to ask us if we were 100% sure we would go to heaven if we died. I thought to myself "can anyone be 100% sure?" But I remained silent while they spoke with my other, blatantly anti-christian friends. Their whole deal was about accepting Jesus and asking us if we really had a concept of hell and if we really wanted to go there. When I began speaking, I explained that I had gone to Catholic school for 10 years and knew plenty about Christianity, but that I began to question the faith as I got older. (Now for the part that really bothered me) I started asking them about the legitimacy of other major religions like Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. I said that I considered myself Christian but that there are many other faiths that connect us all to the same God with many of the same basic moral standards. In reply they said that these religions were all missing Jesus Christ, the mid-point between us and God. So then I asked "what about people who live in isolation and never hear about Jesus? are they going to hell?" They said that the Bible says that everybody gets a chance to hear about God. I do not remember seeing that in the Bible but perhaps they were right. They used the Bible passage "I am the way, the truth, and the light. Nobody cometh unto the father except through me."

Anyways, since then I have just been feeling somewhat upset. My friend argued with them that Christianity is a bunch of paranoia, and I would consider myself a pretty paranoid person. I have been thinking alot:
-Wondering if I might be hell-bound
-Thinking of all the wonderful people on these boards and that I know in person who would be denied eternal bliss for believing something that is just as practical to them as Jesus Christ is to Christians.
-Coming to terms with the thought that I may have only remained Christian for so long for fear of hell.
-Wondering how a God of infinite wisdom could expect human beings all to jump on the same bandwagon when there are so many untrustworthy people around, especially in religion.

I was just wondering how other people felt about this issue, and hoping to gain some insight from those who are more well-read on spirituality then myself.


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5120823 -

All of that shit is nothing but FUD. Don't listen to threats of Hell.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5120945 -

if i go to hell im kickin satan out his kingdom


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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5120948 -

when jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. nobody cometh unto the father except through me" he was speaking on the behalf of the christ mind. it means no one reaches heaven except through the christ consciousness, which has been called different things by different religions. the bible says to "let this mind be in you which was also in christ jesus" and urges people to "put on the mind of christ". ask those people the meaning of these passages and see the kind of repsonse you get. chances are you will get some kind of very contrived sounding response which is clearly attempting to deny the existence of the chrsit within you.

its up to you to decide what you want to believe, either there is one right religion and you make it to heaven based on luck alone, choosing the right religion among many. or there is something universal witch all religions are hinting at. ask yourself which scenario seems more likely.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5121342 -

The other day I was sitting with some friends downtown and we were approached by two young guys who stopped to ask us if we were 100% sure we would go to heaven if we died. I thought to myself "can anyone be 100% sure?" But I remained silent while they spoke with my other, blatantly anti-christian friends. Their whole deal was about accepting Jesus and asking us if we really had a concept of hell and if we really wanted to go there. When I began speaking, I explained that I had gone to Catholic school for 10 years and knew plenty about Christianity, but that I began to question the faith as I got older. (Now for the part that really bothered me) I started asking them about the legitimacy of other major religions like Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. I said that I considered myself Christian but that there are many other faiths that connect us all to the same God with many of the same basic moral standards. In reply they said that these religions were all missing Jesus Christ, the mid-point between us and God. So then I asked "what about people who live in isolation and never hear about Jesus? are they going to hell?" They said that the Bible says that everybody gets a chance to hear about God. I do not remember seeing that in the Bible but perhaps they were right. They used the Bible passage "I am the way, the truth, and the light. Nobody cometh unto the father except through me."

These two guys have no scripture to back up the notion that everyone "gets a chance". People who have never heard the gospel in remote areas of the world and die unconverted, will be righteously judged on the last day and be cast into the Lake of Fire. Every one for whom Christ died will hear the gospel in time, and be converted no exceptions. God is sovereign in His actions and has predestinated who will inherit salvation, and who will be damned. Those who hold to Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. will not be saved if they continue in that belief until they die. I see you went to Catholic school, Roman Catholicism has nothing to do with Christianity, it is a system of lies.

-Wondering if I might be hell-bound

You most certainly are hell bound if you die unconverted and are not made a new creation.

-Thinking of all the wonderful people on these boards and that I know in person who would be denied eternal bliss for believing something that is just as practical to them as Jesus Christ is to Christians.

People go to hell because they do not have a righteousness that can meet the standard of God, which is perfection. Now no person can meet this standard of themselves, but Jesus Christ alone did this for His people. The Christian's faith looks to Christ's righteousness, this is the only way of reconciliation to God.

-Coming to terms with the thought that I may have only remained Christian for so long for fear of hell.

No Christian is motivated by fear, the love of God is shed abroad in the Christian's heart by the Holy Spirit. We have joy in knowing that all our sins are forgiven, hell no longer has any claim on us, since Christ already went to hell for us.

-Wondering how a God of infinite wisdom could expect human beings all to jump on the same bandwagon when there are so many untrustworthy people around, especially in religion.

God has His election of grace on this earth, and in the fullness of time they are converted, and are taught what the true gospel is and is not. Since God Himself is teaching them through His Spirit, no amount of untrustworthy people can destroy them. His sheep hear His voice.

Edited by fivepointer (12/30/05 05:16 AM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5121354 -

Im sure Jesus died for ALL of our sins, this includes everyone. And if he did die for all our sins, then we must ALL already be saved! :lol:

If many of us really are going to burn in hell, becuase our uncompassionate God has failed to reach those most in need of help. Then i am all too happy to go to hell and suffer alongside the souls within, just like Jesus has.

As Zen master Shunryu Suzuki once taught, "Hell is not punishment; it's training!".


--------------------

Edited by Sinbad (12/30/05 06:32 AM)

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Rapture [Re: CUBErt]
    #5121407 -

Don't worry :smile: The Rapture is just around the corner:

spacedragon said:
At synchronization, each body in the solar system will release a sound, a primal tone that expresses its particular vibration.  The concerted sound of all these tones - the "music of the spheres" - will not only awaken the encoded memory of each entity but it will erase the past forever.  The way to reattune ourselves is through feeling.  We will become something much greater by moving beyond thinking to feeling.  You have learned much about yourselves by experiencing the visitors (including the creator Elohim gods, the interlopers, and various other extra-terrestrials) but now you can see yourselves reflected everywhere in creation, you no longer need them.  We will firmly but peacefully ask the visitors to leave.


spacedragon said:
At synchronization, each body in the solar system will release a sound, a primal tone that expresses its particular vibration.  The concerted sound of all these tones - the "music of the spheres" -


...When the Fat Lady sings.

The question is: Who goes where?

from another board:
Quote:
Orbiting a star in the third position is a planet with a moon. It is much like ours, with the Exception that it is entirely an ocean, with only small islands and coral atolls.
On this planet the top of the food chain are the Citations. The main sentient life-forms here are all Whales, and Dolphins of every kind we have here on Earth. Here on Oceanis there are no people, so the Citations can frolic in the waves of their water-world free from the fear and onslaught of Human Predation.
Oceanis is a Matriarchy. It is ruled by the Great Grand-Mother Blue Whale. She has a throne of sorts. She resides among a Crystalline Astral Gateway located deep in an abyss. There is an air chamber in that gateway where she can breath, so she does not have to surface if she does not want to. The Crystalline Gateway is huge like a cathedral, and it is always continuing to grow as it is entirely Quartz.
The Great Grand-Mother Blue is ten times the size of the largest Blue Whale one can find on Earth. With the sound of her voice she can be heard to speak anywhere on the whole of Oceanis. With the sound of her voice she also operates the Crystalline Astral Gateway. Using harmonics she can open the astral gateway by making it resonate with the intense frequencies of her song. This Gateway opens to other gateways located on other water worlds everywhere in the Galaxy, Including Earth!
Grand-Mother Blue keeps order in the classes of Citations existing on Oceanis with a Knighthood who serve her. This Knighthood consists of Orcas! These Orcas are the same as the "Killer-Whales" we have here on Earth, and with one exception, they are four times larger then Earth Orcas. The Knighthood settle all disputes that may occur amongst all the species of Whales and Dolphins on Oceanis. As you know here on Earth Citations frequently have disputes, and disagree with one another, and have tiffs over this and that, particularly amongst the Dolphins concerning territory and mating. This does not happen on Oceanis.
Should some sort of dispute arise among any of the inhabitants of Oceanis, the Great Grand-Mother Blue Whale finds out about it, because she is so wizened nothing can be hidden from her, and she sends her Knights to take care of it. The Orcas come, and simply EAT everyone involved, and the dispute is settled!
So on Oceanis, life amongst the inhabitants is simply wonderful! Everyone gets along famously respecting each others right to exist, and the grand give away that is the food-chain happens in such a way that nothing ever really dies. If an Orca consumes a Dolphin, The Dolphin has simply become Orca. This rarely ever happens though, as there are plenty of everyone's favorite fish around, so everyone is fat and happy!


Odd how the fact that orcas have been used to hunt whales has been omitted from this tale.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

Edited by Booby (12/30/05 07:09 AM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5121446 -

I know I'm going to hell.

Why? Because I believe in the Force.

http://www.ooze.com/toolofsatan/


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: psyka]
    #5121456 -

There an interesting line in the Icelandic Edda's that goes something like: "And the ocean washed over the land"

Obviously (to me) it is the law of the jungle in the ocean


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5121471 -

You should be careful to not get too upset by the scare tactics of fundamentalists protestants. Apply a little philosophy to their claims to see if they make any sense.

We say that God is all knowing, all powerful, and all Good. So how is it possible for a Good God to create people who he knows will never hear the Gospel, if hearing the Gospel is an absolute requirement for salvation? It seems these unfortunate folks are destined for Hell before they are created. But a Good God, who has infinite power, would not create people only to throw them into hell with no chance for salvation.

Those who claim that hearing the gospel, being baptized, or any other human act is *absolutely* required for salvation fail to apprehend God's ultimate Goodness and his infinite power. An ultimately good and infinitely powerful God can save whoever he wants.

It is true that Jesus as "the way, the truth, and the life" is the only means of salvation.  St. John tells us that Christ is the Logos "who pitched his tent among us." Logos is often translated "word", but it also means "reason". In fact, the Greek philosopher Heraclitus spoke of the Logos as the ordering principle of the universe. For him, the logos is the reason why the world, which is in a constant state of change, does not fall into total chaos and non-being. The Logos of St. John is not merely the word of God, he is also the organizing principle of reality. "Though him all things were made. He holds all creation together in himself."

With the incarnation of the Logos as the man Jesus, the gap between being and becoming, between the eternal and the temporal, between God and creation was bridged. As both "true God and true man" (hypostatic union) Jesus is like the mathematical point which is both in the arc of a circle and in a line running tangent to the circle; their can only be one. Jesus is the only place where God and creation coincide, and he is therefore the "only way to the Father."

However, this does not mean that a person has to know about Jesus to be saved, anymore than a sleeping child strapped into his car seat needs to know about the bridge his car uses to cross a river. The  twentieth century Catholic theologian and philosopher, Karl Rahner spoke of some unbaptized pagans as "Anonymous Christians". These are people who have never heard of Jesus, or who have been improperly evangelized and reject Christianity because they don't really understand it, but nonetheless love God seek the good. Like babies who die before being baptized, these anonymous Christians can have salvation by "way" of Jesus, even though they don't know who he is.

The Catholic Church (The first and Universal Christian Church), has never taught that anyone is in hell; to do so would presume to know the mind of God. The practice of condemning pagans to hell is linked to the protestant heresy of predestination, and is counter to the Gospel teaching "Judge not lest ye be judged." This often misunderstood line specifically refers to judging that someone is damned. This ultimate judgment is reserved for God alone.

Does the fact that people don't need to know Jesus to be saved by him mean that Christians should stop evangelizing, given that people can be saved without hearing the Gospel or being baptized?

Certainly not! A person is more likely to cross the bridge if he knows what it is and where it leads, even though this information is not absolutely necessary. 

If I made this any longer people would not read it, so I'll stop now. :laugh:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5121479 -

Personally I disagree with the concept of "Hell" as a place where everyone suffers.

People who suffer live in their own personal Hell; and would probably like to go somewhere else where conditions are different.

There are those amongst us who prefer one type of utopia, and those amongst us for whom another type of utopia is more fitting.

Oceania and the law of the jungle is fitting for those of us who may find that lifestyle attractive.

The only thing I'm concerned about at this time is just how many options are there.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Sinbad]
    #5121547 -

Sinbad said:
Im sure Jesus died for ALL of our sins, this includes everyone. And if he did die for all our sins, then we must ALL already be saved! :lol:

If many of us really are going to burn in hell, becuase our uncompassionate God has failed to reach those most in need of help. Then i am all too happy to go to hell and suffer alongside the souls within, just like Jesus has.

As Zen master Shunryu Suzuki once taught, "Hell is not punishment; it's training!".


Right on Sinbad.  :thumbup: We need to take some stand against this nonsense.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5121552 -

fivepointer said:
The other day I was sitting with some friends downtown and we were approached by two young guys who stopped to ask us if we were 100% sure we would go to heaven if we died. I thought to myself "can anyone be 100% sure?" But I remained silent while they spoke with my other, blatantly anti-christian friends. Their whole deal was about accepting Jesus and asking us if we really had a concept of hell and if we really wanted to go there. When I began speaking, I explained that I had gone to Catholic school for 10 years and knew plenty about Christianity, but that I began to question the faith as I got older. (Now for the part that really bothered me) I started asking them about the legitimacy of other major religions like Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. I said that I considered myself Christian but that there are many other faiths that connect us all to the same God with many of the same basic moral standards. In reply they said that these religions were all missing Jesus Christ, the mid-point between us and God. So then I asked "what about people who live in isolation and never hear about Jesus? are they going to hell?" They said that the Bible says that everybody gets a chance to hear about God. I do not remember seeing that in the Bible but perhaps they were right. They used the Bible passage "I am the way, the truth, and the light. Nobody cometh unto the father except through me."

These two guys have no scripture to back up the notion that everyone "gets a chance". People who have never heard the gospel in remote areas of the world and die unconverted, will be righteously judged on the last day and be cast into the Lake of Fire. Every one for whom Christ died will hear the gospel in time, and be converted no exceptions. God is sovereign in His actions and has predestinated who will inherit salvation, and who will be damned. Those who hold to Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. will not be saved if they continue in that belief until they die. I see you went to Catholic school, Roman Catholicism has nothing to do with Christianity, it is a system of lies.

-Wondering if I might be hell-bound

You most certainly are hell bound if you die unconverted and are not made a new creation.

-Thinking of all the wonderful people on these boards and that I know in person who would be denied eternal bliss for believing something that is just as practical to them as Jesus Christ is to Christians.

People go to hell because they do not have a righteousness that can meet the standard of God, which is perfection. Now no person can meet this standard of themselves, but Jesus Christ alone did this for His people. The Christian's faith looks to Christ's righteousness, this is the only way of reconciliation to God.

-Coming to terms with the thought that I may have only remained Christian for so long for fear of hell.

No Christian is motivated by fear, the love of God is shed abroad in the Christian's heart by the Holy Spirit. We have joy in knowing that all our sins are forgiven, hell no longer has any claim on us, since Christ already went to hell for us.

-Wondering how a God of infinite wisdom could expect human beings all to jump on the same bandwagon when there are so many untrustworthy people around, especially in religion.

God has His election of grace on this earth, and in the fullness of time they are converted, and are taught what the true gospel is and is not. Since God Himself is teaching them through His Spirit, no amount of untrustworthy people can destroy them. His sheep hear His voice.


IMO this post is complete nonsense. I would not want to spend eternity with people who post this kind of negative anti love propoganda. To me it's about as fear driven and unholy as humans can get.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5121674 -

I agree with Deviate's interpretation of that particularly important passage. I have posted on this before - about my interpretation of 'The Way' that I took from BE HERE NOW and used in a class in Christian seminary. It was the line that equated the Tao (which translates 'The Way') with The Way as expressed through the words attributed to Jesus. The majority of the class look worried and confused and looked to the professor who said: "You don't all have to be high fliers." That professor was T.C. Oden, who published some good theological books, and he was one of my best professors. He was not in disagreement with me, but he was acquiescing to the needs of the 'low fliers' (the 'Psychic' Christians, not the high flying 'Pneumatic' Christians).

Literalist, Fundamentalist Christians remain completely confused on the different levels of interpretation of scriptures, and in fact are unaware of such levels unless pressed. Orthodox Jews have delineated a literal, an allegorical, a symbolic and a mystical aspect to scriptures. "I am the vine and you are the branches" is an allegorical reference of Jesus to His followers. He was clearly not affirming his vegetative nature.

Not so clear is the interpretation of the above quotation since the Johannine theology which has 'tainted' the entirety of Christian theology has conjoined Jesus the man with Christ the anointed in such a way as to be indivisible to the theologically simplistic mind. Mark, Matthew and Luke (the Synoptic [same view] gospels) all saw Jesus as 'a man anointed by G-D.' The later Gospel of John introduced a purely Greek mythic element and made Jesus 'G-D clothed with flesh.' This is the view that most Christians have. It is not Jewish and therefore it is not the interpretation that Jesus would have had of Himself, nor any of His friends, family and followers. "I have come not for the righteous but for the sinners" is completely overlooked by centuries of Christians who bought into Augustine's doctrine of Original Sin, whereas Jesus Himself recognized the righteousness of Jews (like Himself!). These developments which made a 'specific doctrine' identical with salvation also were the source of the utter perversion of The Way into 'Christianity.' A REAL Christian would NOT participate in a crusade, a witch hunt, torture, murder, genocide, antisemitism, pogroms, persecutions or any other violent, uncompassionate, hateful thing that has been perpetrated in the name of Christianity.

Condemning, judging, Fundamentalist Literalists are heretics, yet under Constantine, their mythology-as-history became mainstream theology over and against the opposing school of Gnostics. The Gnostic interpretation of Christ as a reality to be individually realized rather than as the effect of merely believing in a mythological story as if it were historical is not contrary to other faiths. Even the Christ of the Qur'an is a Gnostic Christ inasmuch as the Qur'an says that Jesus was NOT crucified - only a likeness of Him. Of course this completely antagonizes and threatens the very core of Fundamentalist Christians.

Hindus might see Jesus as an Avatar - a manifestation of G-D, or again (as Ram Dass' Guru did) as a "saint." Buddhists can see Jesus as a Bodhisattva, even as a Buddha. But to the Fundamentalist who doesn't even know what the underlying theology is that they are assuming, or the fact that the title 'Son of G-D' is not unique - that all the kings of Israel were called that because they too were 'anointed' by G-D - Avatar, Bodhisattva, Buddha are not sufficient, not true because He is 'the only begotten Son of G-D, begotten, not made; one in being with the Father,' and of course, one then has then to accept this Nicean [Apostle's] Creed, including the Trinitarian metaphysics which includes the Greek mythological element introduced by John's gospel.

BELIEVE it or not...there still exists the alternative of embracing a Gnostic Christianity - a Christianity that is about 'waking up,' as in 'awakened' (when Buddha was asked what he was, he reportedly said: "I am awake." Lastly, it is important for anyone interested to be able to determine which level scriptures are best manifesting, and to do this, one really has to be able to discern the mythological from the historical-literal. If one can do this, one has awakened from the unconscious assumptions of childhood. Resurrection is a MYSTERY, not a resusitated corpse - the first awakening from Literalism to Gnosis, from the mythological to the mystical.

Peace.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5121680 -

People who have never heard the gospel in remote areas of the world and die unconverted, will be righteously judged on the last day and be cast into the Lake of Fire
yes, that is absolute nonsense.
Fear to those, who know Christ and continue their evil deeds, perhaps even in his name. It would be better for those, they didn't even notice his presence.

...since Christ already went to hell for us.
Woa, who sent him there ? Was it so bad to save some humans ? I hope he didn't suffer for that too long ?! (irony!)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5121702 -

If Heaven is reserved for Fundamentalist Christians, I prefer the "Lake of Fire."  :tongue:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Veritas]
    #5121755 -

Veritas said:
If Heaven is reserved for Fundamentalist Christians, I prefer the "Lake of Fire."  :tongue:


:thumbup:  They'de probably have some "killer" tunes there too instead of that pussy christian rock and top 25 pop songs lol


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5121768 -

BELIEVE it or not...there still exists the alternative of embracing a Gnostic Christianity - a Christianity that is about 'waking up,' as in 'awakened' (when Buddha was asked what he was, he reportedly said: "I am awake." Lastly, it is important for anyone interested to be able to determine which level scriptures are best manifesting, and to do this, one really has to be able to discern the mythological from the historical-literal. If one can do this, one has awakened from the unconscious assumptions of childhood. Resurrection is a MYSTERY, not a resusitated corpse - the first awakening from Literalism to Gnosis, from the mythological to the mystical.

Peace.

Please give us this kind of Christanity so we can get on with loving each other instead of threatening hell on the enemies of God.

Thanks Markos for continuing to present IMO, some truth about Christ and Christanity. :thumbup: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/30/05 10:17 AM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5121872 -

Quote:
Posted by BlueCoyote

...since Christ already went to hell for us.
Woa, who sent him there ? Was it so bad to save some humans ? I hope he didn't suffer for that too long ?! (irony!)


The time period from where Christ died on the cross, to the 3 days when he was ressurected.  That was supposed to be the time he went there.  When the bible speaks about him dying for our sins, it is really speaking of the 2nd death (Hell).  Everyone has to die once, but through Christ we don't have to die the 2nd death.

I'm not condoning or condemning that idea.  I'm just saying, that is what is believed in the christian faith.  :smile:


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #5121914 -

During the Middle Ages, a lot of theater dealt with the "Harrowing of Hell".

More often than not Jesus was portrayed as an avenging hero who, after his death, descended to hell to kick devil ass and free the virtuous souls held there. It was believed that, before Christ, everybody who died went to hell. In these plays, Adam and Eve are usually the last souls freed before Jesus rises from the dead.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #5122147 -

Really ? I have to look that up. That sounds crazy :smile: What did he do there ? Made some treaty about Christians with the devil ?

I remember the Lake of Fire seen as 'second death' and always wondered why.

Does anyone has any bible-pointers at hand where Jesus went to hell ?

edit: I vagely remember some text in the apocryphes that said Jesus went underearth at Golgotha to meet Adam, yes. But why the heck he was/is in hell ? Wow, that does let me look on things a bit differently, but I have to contemplate, if that was written ...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (12/30/05 11:39 AM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5122167 -

Yes, but I believe the Old Testament prophets were in Jewish Hell, otherwise called 'Sheol,' which seemed more like the shadowy underworld of Greek Hades than a "lake of fire." The ideas of afterlife were mentioned by apocalyptic writers like the author of 'Daniel' (being resurrected to 'eternal righteousness' or 'eternal contempt,' i.e., heaven or hell), but Jewish theology was about survival of the 'tribes' of Israel, not 'individual eternal life' (which is oxymoronic, not paradoxical, but better than saying 'immortality' which is not a Biblical concept).

We shouldn't be too hard on the ancients. In the first place, just like today's Fundamentalists, they could not differentiate between the mythic and the physical. The world was flat, the heavens were domed and Hell (in other traditions including the Norse cosmology from which we get the word 'Hel') was beneath the Earth. Sulphur does indeed issue forth from volcanic regions (volcanic from Vulcanic - the Roman equivalent of Hephaistus, the Greek god who forged Zeus' thunderbolts from divine fire). Ancients also used allegory and symbolism, and imagination. The spiritual body which would undergo the pains of Hell would not reside in a physical lake of fire - that's two different categories of existence. It would have to be a spiritual lake of fire, so the implication is one of eternal burning agony which is admittedly, a horrifying thought, and equally admittedly an intended agenda. After all, if the choice is eternal reward or eternal punishment, one can see the basic psychology by which we train children and pets and is now called classical conditioning. The Biblical writers were brilliant, make no mistake about it, and projected this common sense psychology onto G-D, who became a Father-God like Zeus and others.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5122199 -

Ah markos, you always post 2 mins after or before me so I did not get your answers :lol:
Thank you for the nice analogies. I like the bolts of fire from Vulcan. Reminds me of the dwarfs forging some mithril :smile:

/starts his bible-programm to find the parts about Jesus in hell.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (12/30/05 12:03 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5122544 -

heh, growing up, i was *EXTREMELY* worried about going to hell.. i dont know what for either. but it scared the shit out of me... for like 3 or 4 years. eventually the entire religion of christianity scared the shit out of me... you know, until i got older and wiser. it's a nice religion, but i think the bible is not god's ultimate word. damning anybody who doesnt accept him & the lord as their saviour and all homosexuals will be banished to hell too? sounds a bit like ancient intolerance to me. i mean, why would god send his beloved creatures to a place of eternal restlessness and pain for a few misunderstandings or misdirections?

as a religion, they need to work on a few things... acceptance. they need to accept people for who they are because rejectin them and/or banishing them isn't going to do any good. they need to stop promoting their religion through mail, through ads... if people want to find god, they can go find him. it's not hard.

i think they need stricter clergy. "resist temptation" if you know what i mean.

but. then again... who am i to tell them what they need to do?

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: lysergicide]
    #5122580 -

I did not find much in the official NT and OT:

KJV 2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Peter:
KJV Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

KJV Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


hmmm....


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5122853 -

fivepointer said:
People who have never heard the gospel in remote areas of the world and die unconverted, will be righteously judged on the last day and be cast into the Lake of Fire. Every one for whom Christ died will hear the gospel in time, and be converted no exceptions. God is sovereign in His actions and has predestinated who will inherit salvation, and who will be damned. Those who hold to Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. will not be saved if they continue in that belief until they die.


-"Everyone for whom Christ died will hear the Gospel in time"
But Christians will tell you that Christ died for everyone's sins, which would mean that every person that ever lived would hear the Gospel at some point in their life. This is certainly not the case."
I think that your statements are absurd.

And the idea of "predestination" is complete bullshit, created by Puritans in order to keep people subservient through fear. I have been shown the parts of the Bible that supposedly speak of that, which I take to mean as: the All-Knowing God knows where we will go based on our own decisions ("free will," anyone?). He does not sit up in Heaven, sorting people into a "Hell pile" and "Heaven Pile" when he creates them.

Thank you to everyone who has shed some more light on this issue.


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5123138 -

I used to have a pretty bad fear of hell. I removed it by just thinking about things. Hell just doesn't make sense. Like, if all non-Christians go to hell, then that's not very fair for the people in isolated tribes and countries who have never even heard of it, is it? I mean, if nobody tells them about it, then they'd never hear about it, so they'd go to hell. That doesn't sound like a compassionate or loving GOD to me. (then again, the god in the bible has a multiple personality and loves to cow HIS humans into submission...I wonder why. Oh wait, I know, it was written by HUMAN BEINGS.) It also doesn't make sense that a select group of humans would know about hell, but nobody else. Why would they know. What makes them special. Then I looked, and I realized that Christians aren't special. They're just people who eat, shit and piss just like everyone else on this big blue ball hurtling through space. They're just as clueless as every human being ever born and will probably die just as clueless. it's CRAZY to imagine they're "special" and won't go to hell because they believe a certain thing. The possiblities are so endless as to what you can believe and "create" for yourself, and they feel comfortable putting people on such a narrow path, and I just can't grasp that. One way of doing things? One way of believing? Their "god" only has one face, and it's the face they've created for it (white male in the sky). And if you don't believe in this GOD and accept him IN A CERTAIN WAY then they say you'll burn in hell.

WHAT??! Do they forget how diverse the world is? How many different paths there are through so many different places? How many different perspectives and situations and challenges and opportunities? With the vast spectrum of minds on our planet, they feel there is only ONE WAY of doing things and they can't even decide amongst themselves what that ONE WAY really is. Think about it. They're just people trying to figure it out like everyone else.

So once I realized that we're all just people and that none of us know shit, the fear of hell went away.

Just the way I look at things. Hell just doesn't make sense to my mind anymore. If GOD is everything, everywhere, seen and unseen, the beginning and the end, if GOD is LOVE...then there is no place for Hell in God.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5123267 -

Well said :smile:


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-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5123287 -

But you never know... Life is full of surprises. Thats all I have to say :smile:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5123314 -

Well, if you go to Hell so will I. I expect there will be great company among the thinkers and philosophers there. See You in Hell!!! :smile:


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5123384 -

Did you ever see an old science fiction film called 'The Omega Man' with (of course) Charleston Heston as the hero? The world of people get turned into daylight-shunning, black-cloaked, white-pupilled zombies (for lack of a better word) because of a man-made plague. Heston alone is immune. The leader of the zombie people (named Malachai I believe, after the OT prophet) insists that his people return to a pre-technological 'dark age' because machines were responsible (in the hands of men) for destroying the world.

That late 60s film was a terrific metaphor for Fundamentalist religious people of every faith. Muslims in the 21st century still amputate ears, hands, feet, etc. according to medieval laws with swords. Fundamentalist Christians also insist upon a medieval mind-set which denies the very existence of prehistoric Earth ("Fossils were created to test the faithful" was something I actually heard someone say in seminary!) There is non-rational, there is trans-rational and there is irrational. Emotions are non-rational, intuition and transcendental vision is trans-rational and believing that the Sun MUST be smaller than the Earth because the Sun is a star, and Revelations says that the stars will fall to Earth is irrational. Anyone who insists upon a medieval mind-set, based upon a 3-tiered cosmos and a flat Earth; a cosmos that confuses the mythical with the material, is clearly mad - delusional - in complete error. The metaphysical assertions of Fundamentalists are just as confused with the physical, and moreover, just under the surface of the so-called Christian who quotes scriptures about G-D's love but who utterly condemns everyone - even Christians with a different theology - to eternal torment - is himself an extremely hate filled, unfulfilled individual who worships a god made in his own image.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5123406 -

I often find your interpretations of Christianity to be quite intellectually palatable. I have been surrounded by fundamentalists too long.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5123443 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
I often find your interpretations of Christianity to be quite intellectually palatable.


As do I, but they are still only interpretations.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5123543 -

Many posters have asserted that salvation can happen without belief of the gospel. There is no scripture that will support this notion, but a great many scriptures clearly state that no one is saved apart from conversion and faith.

I want to clarify something, conversion and faith are NOT causes of salvation, they are evidences of salvation. The cause of salvation is the work of Jesus Christ to justify His people, all those who where given to Him by the Father from before the foundation of the world, He gives every spiritual blessing to them, washes them in His own blood, and presents them without blemish in love. Grace is not based on what a person does, it is despite what a person does. Those who would condition salvation on what someone does are not justified by grace, they are seeking justification through the works of the law, and no flesh is ever justified by works of the law. They are attempting to establish righteousness outside of Jesus Christ, and are ignorant of God's righteousness. This is not a minor detail, this is the foundation of most false gospels that rear their ugly heads in Christendom.

Sin is a breakage of the law, sin can only break a person, expose wickedness, and expose the true nature of a fallen man. All those who are thirsting for righteousness, heavy burdened with sin, who are shown that they are wretched, broke and broken, (the Spirit convicts His people of sin, righteousness and judgement), will be delivered, and drink of the everlasting fountain, and be called to eat without money or price. Salvation is by glorious free grace to completely hell deserving sinners.

Edited by fivepointer (12/30/05 04:44 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5123568 -

Scripture don't mean shit if it is concerned with an afterlife which cannot be confirmed.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5123625 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Scripture don't mean shit if it is concerned with an afterlife which cannot be confirmed.


if all the things scripture dealt with could be confirmed outside of personal experience there would be no need for scripture.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Deviate]
    #5123637 -

Yes, but for someone who thinks organized religion is invalid all scripture is bullshit. Heaven and Hell, Jesus and God, ...fairy tales to assuage the fear of death and make people feel snug and secure in their illusion of immortality.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5123653 -

oh your post was in response to fivepointer.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5123658 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Scripture don't mean shit if it is concerned with an afterlife which cannot be confirmed.


Absolutely true. Scripture now is just about as good as ancient scripture, the only difference is one is older and more valuable ($$$). :smile:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: lysergicide]
    #5123667 -

I write my own personal scripture every day in the actions of my life.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5123695 -

Many posters have asserted that salvation can happen without belief of the gospel. There is no scripture that will support this notion, but a great many scriptures clearly state that no one is saved apart from conversion and faith.

There he goes, assuming that everyone on the planet holds and/or must hold "The Bible" and "sacred scripture" in high regard.

Why should anyone care about what the Bible says, really?

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5123787 -

Many posters have asserted that salvation can happen without belief of the gospel. There is no scripture that will support this notion, but a great many scriptures clearly state that no one is saved apart from conversion and faith.

There he goes, assuming that everyone on the planet holds and/or must hold "The Bible" and "sacred scripture" in high regard.

The objection was from self-proclaimed "Christians" that salvation can happen without faith. Therefore it is proper to assume that they have some scriptural backing for such a position, which they do not. Sure the world does not value scripture, but true Christians always value it to the highest degree.

Why should anyone care about what the Bible says, really?

Because God wrote it, you should care what it says.

Edited by fivepointer (12/30/05 05:50 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5123806 -

fivepointer said:
Many posters have asserted that salvation can happen without belief of the gospel. There is no scripture that will support this notion, but a great many scriptures clearly state that no one is saved apart from conversion and faith.

I want to clarify something, conversion and faith are NOT causes of salvation, they are evidences of salvation. The cause of salvation is the work of Jesus Christ to justify His people, all those who where given to Him by the Father from before the foundation of the world, He gives every spiritual blessing to them, washes them in His own blood, and presents them without blemish in love. Grace is not based on what a person does, it is despite what a person does. Those who would condition salvation on what someone does are not justified by grace, they are seeking justification through the works of the law, and no flesh is ever justified by works of the law. They are attempting to establish righteousness outside of Jesus Christ, and are ignorant of God's righteousness. This is not a minor detail, this is the foundation of most false gospels that rear their ugly heads in Christendom.

Sin is a breakage of the law, sin can only break a person, expose wickedness, and expose the true nature of a fallen man. All those who are thirsting for righteousness, heavy burdened with sin, who are shown that they are wretched, broke and broken, (the Spirit convicts His people of sin, righteousness and judgement), will be delivered, and drink of the everlasting fountain, and be called to eat without money or price. Salvation is by glorious free grace to completely hell deserving sinners.


IMHO you have no proof whatsoever of the non-sense you are talking. You are just a mouth piece for a disease of self hate. I pity you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5123808 -



The objection was from self-proclaimed "Christians" that salvation can happen without faith. Therefore it is proper to assume that they have some scriptural backing for such a position, which they do not. Sure the world does not value scripture, but true Christians always value it to the highest degree.



why should a true christian value the words of scripture over the the living word that can be attained through a direct relationship with God?

Edited by Deviate (12/30/05 05:54 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Deviate]
    #5123828 -

why should a true christian value the words of scripture over the the living word that can be attained through a direct relationship with God?

The Spirit leads His people into all truth, and gives confirmation by witness to the believers spirit, that they are God's children. No experience of a Christian will ever be contrary to the scriptures.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5123842 -

the scriptures have been interpreted in more ways than one so the experience of a christian could indeed be contrary to certain interpretations.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5123943 -

No experience of a Christian will ever be contrary to the scriptures.
Uh uh, big (miss-)assumption. Even Jesus Christ breakes with specific OT-scriptures...
But..on the other hand, without the sciptures, where would Jesus had been ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5124004 -

fivepointer said:
Many posters have asserted that salvation can happen without belief of the gospel. There is no scripture that will support this notion, but a great many scriptures clearly state that no one is saved apart from conversion and faith.

There he goes, assuming that everyone on the planet holds and/or must hold "The Bible" and "sacred scripture" in high regard.

The objection was from self-proclaimed "Christians" that salvation can happen without faith.  Therefore it is proper to assume that they have some scriptural backing for such a position, which they do not.  Sure the world does not value scripture, but true Christians always value it to the highest degree.

Why should anyone care about what the Bible says, really?

Because God wrote it, you should care what it says.


How do you know God wrote it?  Because the Bible says so?  What if you don't care about the Bible?  What if you don't care about GOD?  Why should a human care about God anyway?  Are you supposed to put your absolute trust into a single book "because it says so?" 

Why would you do something a book tells you to do?  Why would you get so obsessed over OBEYING a BOOK just because some of its authors claimed that god wrote it?  What makes them more believable then someone else?  Anyone can claim that GOD speaks to them and then write a story about it.  Why do you trust a book written by human beings when you could simply look for the answers yourself? 

Isn't that a little silly to do something a book tells you to do?  Where's the joy in doing something "because the Bible tells me to do it?"  Isn't it better to look at every situation with fresh eyes, try to draw unbiased conclusions from it?  Instead you wring everything through your Bible filter.  We all have filters, but I rely on my own personal experiences rather then having a book tell me what to do. 

I have never understood the weird fixation Christians have for the Bible.  :confused:  It's just a book.  It sits on my shelf next to Be Here Now, a book about druids, and the Tao Te Ching.  The teachings inside are not confined by the pages, but can be experienced every day. So what's the big deal about the Bible, anyway?  Why should anyone care about a book?  It claims it was written by God?  Big deal, the author obviously had a huge ego. 

To be honest, I wish I'd written the Bible myself.  Controversey makes for a good story.  I did once have a goal to write the 'second Bible' and have a religion formed around my story, but I thought that idea was a little optimistic. 

And I realized, well, it's already been done, so it's clearly not impossible.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5124052 -

fivepointer said:
No experience of a Christian will ever be contrary to the scriptures.


Scripture contradicts itself, and thus parts of the faith do as well.

For instance, most Christians I know are against the use of psychedelics, eating mushrooms for instance. They say it is against God's rules.
But in Matthew 15:11, Jesus says, "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."
Some would say I am taking that verse out of context, but Christians do that sort of thing all the time  :cool:


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5124305 -

How do you know God wrote it? Because the Bible says so?

Because the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me, and every believer, this is the gift of faith that He gives His people. And the scriptures do assert that God the Holy Spirit did indeed write it, and it is the Word of God.

What if you don't care about the Bible? What if you don't care about GOD?

This is evidence of being unregenerated. If this continues until you die, or until Christ should return, you will face the law without mercy, and righteous judgement will be applied, the result is everlasting punishment under the wrath of God.

Why should a human care about God anyway?

God created all things, the universe, and humans, and things unseen, so I think you should care about God.

Are you supposed to put your absolute trust into a single book "because it says so?

Not the books of men, but you should absolutely trust in a book that was written by the Creator.

To be honest, I wish I'd written the Bible myself. Controversey makes for a good story. I did once have a goal to write the 'second Bible' and have a religion formed around my story, but I thought that idea was a little optimistic.
And I realized, well, it's already been done, so it's clearly not impossible.

One man could not have written it, it took many men about 1500 years to write it, and it has pure message throughout it, because God the Holy Spirit wrote it through these men. Not only that but God preserves it by Divine providence.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5124376 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
I often find your interpretations of Christianity to be quite intellectually palatable. I have been surrounded by fundamentalists too long.


Thank you for the compliment.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5124381 -

fivepointer said:
How do you know God wrote it? Because the Bible says so?

Because the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me, and every believer, this is the gift of faith that He gives His people. And the scriptures do assert that God the Holy Spirit did indeed write it, and it is the Word of God.

What if you don't care about the Bible? What if you don't care about GOD?

This is evidence of being unregenerated. If this continues until you die, or until Christ should return, you will face the law without mercy, and righteous judgement will be applied, the result is everlasting punishment under the wrath of God.

Why should a human care about God anyway?

God created all things, the universe, and humans, and things unseen, so I think you should care about God.

Are you supposed to put your absolute trust into a single book "because it says so?

Not the books of men, but you should absolutely trust in a book that was written by the Creator.

To be honest, I wish I'd written the Bible myself. Controversey makes for a good story. I did once have a goal to write the 'second Bible' and have a religion formed around my story, but I thought that idea was a little optimistic.
And I realized, well, it's already been done, so it's clearly not impossible.

One man could not have written it, it took many men about 1500 years to write it, and it has pure message throughout it, because God the Holy Spirit wrote it through these men. Not only that but God preserves it by Divine providence.


All your responses are contingent upon believing in the Bible in the first place.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5124434 -

Of course my words are only interpretations, what else could they be? Not only are scriptures interpretations, they are interpretations of interpretations. So I am interpreting interpretations of interpretations. The goal is for clarity of Truth and Truth is not found in mankind's symbolic (language) interpretation of the primal Experience of Reality (where Reality = Truth).

The Spirit in Letter is really taken to the limit in Islam where the Qur'an is the actual Word of G-D incarnate, equivalent to the Pagan Johannine Christ in which 'The Word was made flesh.' Idolatry both. The Spirit is intangible to Mind [Nous] and seems 'empty' or 'void' or 'nothing' [no-thing] to the Mind. The nature of Mind to grasp, is what creates the 'golden calf' of written words and mythic images upon which to rest. Otherwise, it would find itself 'free-floating' like an infant placed on a glass table, and panic! The other alternative is to involute - go into itself, at which point it would discover the real meaning of the Greek word 'Pan,' (as in Pan-ic) which is 'All.' The Mind realizing that it is unbounded, finds that it is indistinguishable from its Source. Realization of its identity as Spirit is Gnosis - 'the mind of Christ.' This is a Gnostic interpretation of Christian writings. Take it or leave it.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5124596 -

Take it or leave it.

If the mind is indistinguishable from its
Source there can be no realization, until it can
once again distinguish. Since it does not lose the ability to distinguish
it must. Since it must, it is distinguishable.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: falcon]
    #5124674 -

Elle is pretty much on point on this one.

the threat of hell is one of the 5 main brainwashing techniques employed by missionaries or anyone that tries to force their beliefs on non-christians.

9*********<-----my kitten wrote that

they get kids while their young and naive with things like hell and eternal torment. all it does it lead to people acting shitty towards each other because they care about the next life and not this one. after all, as long as they repent for their sins they will be A-ok.


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"A friend of mine was famous for holding his hits until his face swelled up and turned bright red. The veins in his neck and forehead would bulge and he'd get bug-eyed. He'd start sweating. Then he'd belch the hit out violently, along with plenty of spit, and gasp for air." ~UBAKO

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5125692 -

So Fivepointer. I have a question for you. Can you answer honestly? Do you have any interest in the Shroomery and what it stands for? Do you use or believe it's ok to use psychedelics. Or, are you only here to spread the word of Jesus Christ and to proselytize for Christianity?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5125758 -

Well, 100% of his posts are about Fundamental Christianity, so his mission seems pretty clear to me.  :shrug:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Veritas]
    #5125760 -

I want to hear it from him. Is he honest enough to proclaim his intent in being here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5126049 -

So Fivepointer. I have a question for you. Can you answer honestly?

Sure.

Do you have any interest in the Shroomery and what it stands for?

I do not really know what the Shroomery stands for, since most posters seem to come from many different backgrounds and beliefs. There isn't an official statement of Shroomery beliefs that all agree on. Before my conversion I would be considered a typical agnostic/atheist "Shroomerite", who experienced many things from the magnificent mushrooms. This is why I am here because I feel an affinity for those who were like myself prior to conversion.

Do you use or believe it's ok to use psychedelics?

One reason why a Christian would not use psychedelics is because they are illegal, and scripture tells Christians not to be disobedient to those who rule over them. (As long as the rule does not force Christians to be disobedient to God.)

Another reason why a Christian would not take psychedelics is because they are made a new creation and have no need of these experiences anymore.

Or, are you only here to spread the word of Jesus Christ and to proselytize for Christianity?

I will certainly testify to what I have experienced since the gospel truth shone into my heart in the hope that some others might also experience such a great thing.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5126092 -

Quote:
One reason why a Christian would not use psychedelics is because they are illegal, and scripture tells Christians not to be disobedient to those who rule over them. (As long as the rule does not force Christians to be disobedient to God.)



If there is any part of scripture that shows that the Bible is at best the word of God intepreted to fit the need of mankind, your above-quoted passage shows it perfectly.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5126096 -

Have you ever heard the story about the competition that the Wind had with the Sun? It is cute and profound at the same time.

A lone man, walking down a long country road was wearing an overcoat. The Wind challenged the Sun that he could make the man remove the overcoat that so defended him against the elements. The Sun consented. The Wind began to blow, first gently, but the man paid no heed. The Wind began to blower harder, and to howl louder and louder. At that point the man pulled up his collar, buttoned up his overcoat even more snuggly, and picked up his pace to avoid any more time in the Wind that was necessary. Then it was the Sun's turn. It just continued to be itself, it's true nature - it simply glowed, brightly, warmly, silently. Since the Wind's bluster has died down, the man began to feel the qualities of the Sun and unbuttoned his collar, then his coat, and in a very short time, the man had removed his overcoat, and not only that, he rolled up the sleeves of his shirt as he continued his way. The warm, quiet Sun had humbly bested the bold, blustery Wind which blew far away.

The NT very poignantly makes no association of the Sun with the Son (not counting the words about 'God causing the sun to shine on sinners and righteous alike'). Sol Invictus, the Sun, was the most widely held religious symbol in the Roman empire in the religion of Mithraism (the Taurobolium with the Mithraic ritual slaying of a bull was shown on the first episode of 'Rome' that aired on HBO recently). On the other hand, 'the Holy Spirit bloweth where it listeth' (KJV) indicating that the Wind [Air] and Spirit, both 'Pneuma' in Greek confounded physical air with metaphysical Spirit.

The wind is coextensive with the rest of the atmosphere, but as we know can compress into high pressure zones or vortices (dust devils, waterspouts, tornadoes - different degrees of power). In this way, Biblical metaphors about Spirit, which is seen to move, can 'move' (move emotionally or motivate) others, and can be conceived of with form, like a "cloven tongues like as of fire" (Acts 2:3 KJV). The NIV Bible says "They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them" - a more cautious description with no mention of a 'cloven tongue' because, no doubt, we all recognize that it is serpents and other reptilians who have 'cloven tongues' (and there has been a transition of the serpent from a symbol of wisdom to a symbol of "devilish wisdom" or evil). So in this connection "...be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves" (Matthew 10:16 KJV) the other 'form' that the Holy Spirit can take is a dove ("...and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him" Matthew 3:16 KJV)

When a Christian claims to be informed by the Holy Spirit, one can presume that they are not referring to metaphor alone, depicted as theophanies in the Bible, but to a real change in their consciousness. That change may translate into new values upon which to base one's life, and that change constitutes a religious experience. However, the legitimate boundaries of authority of religious experience ends with the experiencer. In other words, a religious experience can be embraced by the one having the experience, but that experience has no authority over other individuals. I may concede that someone has had a life-changing experience, but personally, I will look for the way an individual manifests that inner change in his/her demeanor, personality, actions (The Sun in my little story). I will be particularly wary of any individual who does more than share his/her experience with me - particularly if that extremely intimate experience is volunteered, not requested! Furthermore, I will be more than wary, I will experience obvious aggression from anyone who expects his/her personal religious experience to have any authority over MY life. THAT aggression is the social pathology behind every atrocity ever perpetrated in the name of GOD!

Thank you for tolerating the rant  :blush:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5126131 -

Quote:
I will experience obvious aggression from anyone who expects his/her personal religious experience to have any authority over MY life. THAT aggression is the social pathology behind every atrocity ever perpetrated in the name of GOD!


Well said and worth a rant. :grin: It has been a life long sadness for me that the message in the life and words of Christ is used to seperate the human family with fear and mistrust. Fivepointer has used the Shroomery for this IMO unholy purpose for the last three years and in every one of his posts. I will challenge this use of our forums every time.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5126145 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
Furthermore, I will be more than wary, I will experience obvious aggression from anyone who expects his/her personal religious experience to have any authority over MY life. THAT aggression is the social pathology behind every atrocity ever perpetrated in the name of GOD!

Thank you for tolerating the rant  :blush:


:smile:  That's what blows my mind the most...the fact that they feel EVERYONE should believe as they do.  :confused:  There's almost something loony about it.  The good news is that fundie Christians are fun to play with when you're writing, sort of like a Barbie that you can do anything to.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5126154 -

Markos, you are probably the most eloquent, kind-hearted Christian I have ever met. If more religious folk were as understanding and tolerant as you are, I have a feeling that religion wouldn't carry the stigma that it does today.

Kudos to you!

:heart:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5126217 -

EllemyshShade said:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Furthermore, I will be more than wary, I will experience obvious aggression from anyone who expects his/her personal religious experience to have any authority over MY life. THAT aggression is the social pathology behind every atrocity ever perpetrated in the name of GOD!

Thank you for tolerating the rant  :blush:


:smile:  That's what blows my mind the most...the fact that they feel EVERYONE should believe as they do.  :confused:  There's almost something loony about it.  The good news is that fundie Christians are fun to play with when you're writing, sort of like a Barbie that you can do anything to.


Unfortunately, there is no "almost" about the lunacy  :sad: It is very real delusion like this article:

  The psychology behind suicide bombings
By Pierre Rho, French Documentary Filmmaker
On July 15, MSNBC's "Connected" program discussed the 7/7 London attacks. One of the guests was Pierre Rho, a French filmmaker who has filmed six documentaries on the intifada by going undercover in the Palestinian areas.

Pierre's upcoming film, "Suicide Killers," is based on interviews that he conducted with the families of suicide bombers and  would-be bombers in an attempt to find out why they do it. Pierre agreed to a request for a Q&A interview here about his work on the new film. Many thanks to Dean Draznin and Arlyn Riskind for helping to arrange this special interview.

What inspired you to produce "Suicide Killers," your seventh film?

I started working with victims of suicide attacks to make a film on PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) when I became fascinated with the personalities of those who had committed those crimes, as they were described again and again by their victims. Especially the fact that suicide bombers are all smiling one second before they blow themselves up.

Why is this film especially important?

People don't understand the devastating culture behind this unbelievable phenomenon. My film is not politically correct because it addresses the real problem-showing the real face of Islam. It points the finger against a culture of hatred in which the uneducated are brainwashed to a level where their only solution in life becomes to kill themselves and kill others in the name of a God whose word, as transmitted by other men, has became their only certitude.

What insights did you gain from making this film? What do you know that other experts do not know?

I came to the conclusion that we are facing a neurosis at the level of an entire civilization. Most neuroses have in common a dramatic event, generally linked to an unacceptable sexual behavior. In this case, we are talking of kids living all their lives in pure frustration, with no opportunity to experience sex, love, tenderness or even understanding from the opposite sex. The separation between men and women in Islam is absolute. So is contempt toward women, who are totally dominated by men. This leads to a situation of pure anxiety, in which normal behavior is not possible. It is no coincidence that suicide killers are mostly young men dominated subconsciously by an overwhelming libido that they not only cannot satisfy but are afraid of, as if it is the work of the devil. Since Islam describes heaven as a place where everything on earth will finally be allowed, and promises 72 virgins to those frustrated kids, killing others and killing themselves to reach this redemption becomes their only solution.

What was it like to interview would-be suicide bombers, their families and survivors of suicide bombings?

It was a fascinating and a terrifying experience. You are dealing with seemingly normal people with very nice manners who have their own logic, which to a certain extent can make sense since they are so convinced that what they say is true. It is like dealing with pure craziness, like interviewing people in an asylum, since what they say, is for them, the absolute truth. I hear a mother saying "Thank God, my son is dead." Her son had became a shaheed, a martyr, which for her was a greater source of pride than if he had became an engineer, a doctor or a winner of the Nobel Prize. This system of values works completely backwards since their interpretation of Islam worships death much more than life. You are facing people whose only dream, only achievement is to fulfill what they believe to be their destiny, namely to be a shaheed or the family of a shaheed.

They don't see the innocent being killed, they only see the impure that they have to destroy.

You say suicide bombers experience a moment of absolute power, beyond punishment. Is death the ultimate power?

Not death as an end, but death as a door open to the after life. They are seeking the reward that God has promised them. They work for God, the ultimate authority, above all human laws. They therefore experience this single delusional second of absolute power, where nothing bad can ever happen to them, since they become God's sword.

Is there a suicide bomber personality profile? Describe the psychopathology.

Generally kids between 15 and 25 bearing a lot of complexes, generally inferiority complexes. They must have been fed with religion. They usually have a lack of developed personality. Usually they are impressionable idealists. In the western world they would easily have become drug addicts, but not criminals. Interestingly, they are not criminals since they don't see good and evil the same way that we do. If they had been raised in an Occidental culture, they would have hated violence. But they constantly battle against their own death anxiety. The only solution to this deep-seated pathology is to be willing to die and be rewarded in the after life in Paradise.

Are suicide bombers principally motivated by religious conviction?

Yes, it is their only conviction. They don't act to gain a territory or to find freedom or even dignity. They only follow Allah, the supreme judge, and what He tells them to do.

Do all Muslims interpret jihad and martyrdom in the same way?

All Muslim believers believe that, ultimately, Islam will prevail on earth. They believe this is the only true religion and their is no room, in their mind, for interpret ation. The main difference between moderate Muslims and extremists is that moderate Muslims don't think they will see the absolute victory of Islam during their life time, therefore they respect other beliefs. The extremists believe that the fulfillment of the Prophecy of Islam and ruling the entire world as described in the Koran, is for today. Each victory of Bin Laden convinces 20 million moderate Muslims to become extremists.

Describe the culture that manufactures suicide bombers.

Oppression, lack of freedom, brain washing, organized poverty, placing God in charge of daily life, total separation between men and women, forbidding sex, giving women no power whatsoever, and placing men in charge of family honor, which is mainly connected to their women's behavior.

What socio-economic forces support the perpetuation of suicide bombings?

Muslim charity is usually a cover for supporting terrorist organizations. But one has also to look at countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran, which are also supporting the same organizations through different networks. The ironic thing in the case of Palestinian suicide bombers is that most of the money comes through financial support from the Occidental world, donated to a culture that utterly hates and rejects the West (mainly symbolized by Israel).

Is there a financial support network for the families of the suicide bombers? If so, who is paying them and how does that affect the decision?

There used to be a financial incentive in the days of Saddam Hussein ($25,000 per family) and Yasser Arafat (smaller amounts), but these days are gone. It is a mistake to believe that these families would sacrifice their children for money. Although, the children themselves who are very attached to their families, might find in this financial support another reason to become suicide bombers. It is like buying a life insurance policy and then committing suicide.

Why are so many suicide bombers young men?

As discussed above , libido is paramount. Also ego, because this is a sure way to become a hero. The shaheeds are the cowboys or the firemen of Islam. Shaheed is a positively reinforced value in this culture. And what kid has never dreamed of becoming a cowboy or a fireman?

What role does the U.N. play in the terrorist equation?

The UN is in the hands of Arab countries and third world or ex-communists countries. Their hands are tied. The UN has condemned Israel more than any other country in the world, including the regime of Castro, Idi Amin or Kaddahfi.

By behaving this way, the UN leaves a door open by not openly condemning terrorist organizations. In addition, through UNRWA, the UN is directly tied to terror organizations such as Hamas, representing 65 percent of their apparatus in the so-called Palestinian refugee camps. As a support to Arab countries, the UN has maintained Palestinians in camps with the hope to "return" into Israel for more than 50 years, therefore making it impossible to settle those populations, which still live in deplorable conditions. Four-hundred million dollars are spent every year, mainly financed by U.S. taxes, to support 23,000 employees of UNRWA, many of whom belong to terrorist organizations (see Congressman Eric Cantor on this subject, and in my film "Hostages of Hatred").

You say that a suicide bomber is a 'stupid bomb and a smart bomb' simultaneously. Explain what you mean.

Unlike an electronic device, a suicide killer has until the last second the capacity to change his mind. In reality, he is nothing but a platform representing interests which are not his, but he doesn't know it.

How can we put an end to the madness of suicide bombings and terrorism in general?

Stop being politically correct and stop believing that this culture is a victim of ours. Radical Islamism today is nothing but a new form of Nazism. Nobody was trying to justify or excuse Hitler in the 1930s. We had to defeat him in order to make peace one day with the German people.

Are these men traveling outside their native areas in large numbers? Based on your research, would you predict that we are beginning to see a new wave of suicide bombings outside the Middle East?

Every successful terror attack is considered a victory by the radical Islamists. Everywhere Islam is expands there is regional conflict. Right now, their are thousands of candidates for martyrdom lining up in training camps in Bosnia, Afghanistan, Pakistan. Inside Europe, hundreds of illegal mosques are preparing the next step of brain washing to lost young men who cannot find a satisfying identity in the Occidental world. Israel is much more prepared for this than the rest of the world will ever be. Yes, there will be more suicide killings in Europe and the U.S. Sadly, this is only the beginning.

Christian or Muslim - it doesn't matter. All are asleep in 'The Matrix' of their own world-view and need to awaken from the deadly demonic delusions.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5126235 -

Chilling...especially this line that worries me:


Quote:
we are facing a neurosis at the level of an entire civilization.


What can happen to a world if everyone has called the birds and gone crazy?

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Redstorm]
    #5126253 -

Well Redstorm, thank you for your vote of confidence  :smile: but I want you to know that I still curse out reckless drivers, I still can't shake some cultural prejudices here in Miami, and once I spanked my dog really badly  :sad: for s**tting all over my apartment. It is true however, that I would never tie a 'charming' or 'enchanting' young woman, who didn't want me, to a stake and set her on fire. I would probably just feel sad and rejected. I also do not make it a habit of telling my Jewish family members (my late parents included) that they are 'prepared for the devil and his angels' (although I have told people to "Go to Hell!," but that was just a figure of speech  :wink:

Peace,
MtG


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5126257 -

1930s Germany.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5126268 -

We all have our vices. I'm sure you, of all people, realize that. We can't be perfect all the time.

Thank YOU for reaffirming my faith in the fact that there is nothing wrong with religion. The problem is with those who interpret religion in ways which breed intolerance and hate.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Redstorm]
    #5126421 -

That's a mighty big compliment Redstorm - if I had a hand in providing some clarity for you, thanks for saying so!

Peace,
MtG

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5126700 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
Furthermore, I will be more than wary, I will experience obvious aggression from anyone who expects his/her personal religious experience to have any authority over MY life. THAT aggression is the social pathology behind every atrocity ever perpetrated in the name of GOD!

Icelander said:
Well said and worth a rant. It has been a life long sadness for me that the message in the life and words of Christ is used to seperate the human family with fear and mistrust. Fivepointer has used the Shroomery for this IMO unholy purpose for the last three years and in every one of his posts. I will challenge this use of our forums every time.

EllemyshShade said:
That's what blows my mind the most...the fact that they feel EVERYONE should believe as they do. There's almost something loony about it. The good news is that fundie Christians are fun to play with when you're writing, sort of like a Barbie that you can do anything to.

My personal religious experiences have absolutely NO authority on another person's life. I only testify to what I believe and why I believe it. The scriptures are very clear that all those who are ordained to eternal life will be converted and believe THE GOSPEL. All those that do not believe the gospel will be damned. God has predestinated who will be saved and who will be damned, based soley on His own purpose and pleasure alone. So there is no possibility that anything I do can alter the decrees of God. No true Christian would force another person to believe something by force, since only God can open the mind and apply the gospel to the heart. Many false "Christians" of the past, like those of the Roman Catholic Church have used force to physically destroy those that disagreed with them. This is just another attempt by the forces of darkness to discredit the true gospel.

I will not take the time to refute Markos with his subtle slanders, as his many damnable heresies are plain to see and he will not be corrected with scripture. Any further admonition would be pointless.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5126762 -

fivepointer said:
All those that do not believe the gospel will be damned.  God has predestinated who will be saved and who will be damned, based soley on His own purpose and pleasure alone.


Ugh, what a dick!  :mad2:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5126773 -

Quote:
My personal religious experiences have absolutely NO authority on another person's life. I only testify to what I believe and why I believe it. The scriptures are very clear that all those who are ordained to eternal life will be converted and believe THE GOSPEL. All those that do not believe the gospel will be damned. God has predestinated who will be saved and who will be damned, based soley on His own purpose and pleasure alone. So there is no possibility that anything I do can alter the decrees of God.


There seems to be a contradiction here.

Quote:
I will certainly testify to what I have experienced since the gospel truth shone into my heart in the hope that some others might also experience such a great thing.


Really though, I must say I don't believe you belong here at all. This site is not about your fundamentalist christian belief system and from checking your posts of the last three years that is the only subject you seem to have any knowledge of whatsoever. Why not head over to one of those PTL type sites where you can be "glad up to heaven" with all your think alike pals. I just want to help steer you in a direction where you might be a little appreciated. I mean I don't think many of us give a righteous shit about your hell and damnation and since anything you might say would not effect our salvation in the least maybe you should take a hike.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5126831 -

"God created most men simply with a view to crowd hell."

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5127167 -

I appreciate what you are trying to do, but I can't help but point out your error here fivepointer. You have fallen prey to the error of predestination.

This violates the goodness of God. God is the only thing which is truly and perfectly good. Every other thing is only good by analogy. A good God would not create people who were predestined for hell. If he did, he would not be good, and therefore would not be God. The True God does not require that anyone surrender his rational capacity to faith. True Christianity requires both faith and reason.

The Catholic (True and Universal) Church has rejected the heresy of predestination from the time of Jesus until today. This heresy begins with the theological problem of Divine Foreknowledge and Free Will, and is bolstered by the philosophical error of mechanical determinism. Both of these errors have been corrected.

In 900 AD a man named Boethius solved the problem of Divine Foreknowledge and Free Will in his short book The Consolation of Philosophy
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/boethius/boetrans.html

Mechanical determinism was scientifically defeated in the 19th century with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~imamura/208/jan27/hup.html

This is actually very complex stuff, and when anybody proposes a simple answer, like God predestines people to hell, that person is in error.

How could a loving father sentence one of his children to eternal agony? If he loved that person, and all Christians agree that God loves everybody, then would he not do everything in his (infinite) power to save that person?

The only way a person can end up in hell is if he refuses the mercy offered him by God. God allows this for two reasons: First he will not take back his gift of freedom; if a person rejects salvation, then God will not impose himself. Secondly, if God were to let assholes into heaven, then heaven would not be a place of perfect happiness; there would be assholes running around causing problems for every body. Consequently there is a Hell. It is a place where those who reject God's mercy are separated form those who accept it. What makes hell such a miserable place is that those in hell are in the company of all the other assholes who rejected mercy. There are no good people in hell. There are no cool people to hang with. Those in hell are assholes who torment each other for eternity.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5127441 -

i would apreciate it if markosthegnostic would comment on the free-will predestination controversey. i don't understand how certain sects of christianity can teach that God is good and that he predetermines most people to hell. the bible says "...God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3-4, NIV). if God's will is the only will in operation and God's will is for everyone to be saved, it is not possible for anyone not to be saved. since not everyone is saved we must conclude that there is some level of free will.

on the other hand there are parts of the bible that seem to support predermination. for example:


"For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses." (Josh 11:20)


"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5127468 -

I appreciate what you are trying to do, but I can't help but point out your error here fivepointer. You have fallen prey to the error of predestination.

It is not an error, it is clearly taught.

This violates the goodness of God. God is the only thing which is truly and perfectly good. Every other thing is only good by analogy. A good God would not create people who were predestined for hell. If he did, he would not be good, and therefore would not be God. The True God does not require that anyone surrender his rational capacity to faith. True Christianity requires both faith and reason.

The doctrine of predestination does not require someone to surrender rationality, it is perfectly consistent with God and all of His attributes.

The Catholic (True and Universal) Church has rejected the heresy of predestination from the time of Jesus until today.

These confessions and statements (see below) all affirm and defend predestination, the catholic (universal) church has always held to this doctrine. The Roman Catholic (False and Antichristian) has always denied the doctrine (see Council of Trent). The modern day apostate Protestant church has sided with Rome in this matter.

See the following Christian confessions and statements:
Augustine, A Treatise On The Predestination Of The Saints 428-9 AD
The Thirty-Nine Articles, (1571) (Church of England)
The Canons of Dordt (1618 A.D.)
The Belgic Confession (1618 A.D.)
The Heidelberg Catechism
First London Baptist Confession of Faith (1644, 1689)
The 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith
Gospel Standard Articles of Faith
1729 Goat Yard Declaration of Faith

This heresy begins with the theological problem of Divine Foreknowledge and Free Will, and is bolstered by the philosophical error of mechanical determinism. Both of these errors have been corrected.

In 900 AD a man named Boethius solved the problem of Divine Foreknowledge and Free Will in his short book The Consolation of Philosophy
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/boethius/boetrans.html

Mechanical determinism was scientifically defeated in the 19th century with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~imamura/208/jan27/hup.html

This is actually very complex stuff, and when anybody proposes a simple answer, like God predestines people to hell, that person is in error.

Philosophy books of men have no standing in determination of doctrine.
I will answer your objections to predestination using scripture (which is my sole and only authority).

How could a loving father sentence one of his children to eternal agony? If he loved that person, and all Christians agree that God loves everybody, then would he not do everything in his (infinite) power to save that person?

This begs the question, why send anyone to hell at all, why not just save everyone, why hinge in on some terms they must meet (which is what you teach)?
If all things are foreseen, and He sees a person not "accepting" (in the tunnel of time), why even let that person be created in the first place?

Does God love everyone without exception? No. Consider Romans 9, men are either a vessel of mercy or of wrath.
Many verses clearly show how election is not contingent on foreseen acts, but soley on God's good pleasure alone. I suggest you search on the words elect*, chosen, predestinat*, ordain* (KJV) for a small sample of verses on this subject.

The only way a person can end up in hell is if he refuses the mercy offered him by God. God allows this for two reasons: First he will not take back his gift of freedom; if a person rejects salvation, then God will not impose himself. Secondly, if God were to let assholes into heaven, then heaven would not be a place of perfect happiness; there would be assholes running around causing problems for every body. Consequently there is a Hell. It is a place where those who reject God's mercy are separated form those who accept it. What makes hell such a miserable place is that those in hell are in the company of all the other assholes who rejected mercy. There are no good people in hell. There are no cool people to hang with. Those in hell are assholes who torment each other for eternity.

What you are saying is salvation in contingent on meeting terms. This is classic salvation by works. You have reason to boast, you can boast in your acceptance, this makes you to differ from the damned, your works. Sinners have no works, they are ruined, saved sinners boast in the cross of Christ alone. This is the crux of false religion, self-righteous delusion and ignorance of God's righteousness.

Edited by fivepointer (12/31/05 08:33 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5127535 -

fivepointer said:
predestinated


:whistling:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5127571 -

Well shit man.

Talking to fundamentalists is like talking to a wall. I had a friend once who said he didn't believe in dinosaurs because there was no mention of them in the Bible; he had seen the bones but still didn't believe.

You are free (or from your point of view predestined) to believe whatever you want. I'm not going to try to stop you. :tongue:

BTW
St. Augustine believed in free will, scripture only speaks of predestination toward heaven not hell, and the rest of your sources post-date the protestant break from Christian tradition. You might as well sight the Quaran.

My posts here are not an attempt to convert you or your fundamentalists friends (you guys will be fine); my intention is to present the ancient, authentic, Catholic perspective, so that those who reject the protestant heresy need not also reject Christ.

Peace brother,
I'll see you in purgatory if not before then. :wink:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5127572 -

better be careful for waht you wish for...

i sure as hell wouldn't want to be living with jesus

for eternity..

besides "jesus" is just the same as " jes us"

can you imagine dying and going to heaven
and there ain't nobody ther named jesus?

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5127624 -

Well shit man.

Talking to fundamentalists is like talking to a wall. I had a friend once who said he didn't believe in dinosaurs because there was no mention of them in the Bible; he had seen the bones but still didn't believe.

You are free (or from your point of view predestined) to believe whatever you want. I'm not going to try to stop you.

If you can make your assertion with scripture I will certainly listen, the problem is scripture is not your authority. If your a Catholic then your church is your authority. The Roman Catholic Church anathematizes anyone who holds to Protestant predestination. I reject the authority of the magisterium, and the Papacy.

BTW
St. Augustine believed in free will, scripture only speaks of predestination toward heaven not hell, and the rest of your sources post-date the protestant break from Christian tradition.

Did you read Augustine? he rejected the free will error of Pelagius.
The sources are Protestant confessions.

My posts here are not an attempt to convert you or your fundamentalists friends (you guys will be fine); my intention is to present the ancient, authentic, Catholic perspective, so that those who reject the protestant heresy need not also reject Christ.

Peace brother,
I'll see you in purgatory if not before then.

"Purgatory" is a not in scripture, it is just another false creation of Romanism. But if you read scripture you would know this.

Edited by fivepointer (12/31/05 09:40 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5127963 -

Did you read Augustine? he rejected the free will error of Pelagius.



This is from St. Augustine, Catholic Bishop of Hippo, On Grace and Free Will Chapter 2:

Quote:
Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine. There is, to begin with, the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards.


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

Yes, Augustine argued against the Pelagian heresy. However, Pelagius' error was not that he believed in freedom; he erred in denying the necessity of grace for salvation. The truth, taught by St. Augustine, is that both grace and freedom are required for salvation.

Pelagians only countenance freedom, while Calvinists only perceive grace. Pelagianism, which says that man can merit salvation, and Calvinism, which says that he is predestined regardless of his actions, both fail to recognize the virtuous middle way. Both grace and free acceptance of grace are required for salvation.


"Purgatory" is a not in scripture, it is just another false creation of Romanism. But if you read scripture you would know this.

It is in scripture, however, Protestants had to remove a few books from the Bible in order to accomadate their new religion. Then, after snipping away the parts of scripture they found distasteful, they had the gall to claim "Sola Scriptura!", which by the way is not in scripture.

From the second book of Maccabees (Removed from protestant Bibles in the 16th century):

Quote:
On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs. But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain. They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin (II Maccabees 12: 39-46).


http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/2maccabees/2maccabees12.htm

Joseph Maccabees was a Jewish man fighting Greek conquerers of Israel. After one of the battles, he found some of his dead Jewish soldiers wearing religious medals of pagan gods. This constituted the sin of idolatry, which was the worst possible sin, yet the soldiers died fighting for God, so they were martyrs guaranteed salvation (resurrection on the last day). Because they died in a state of sin, and yet were destined for salvation, reason dictates that there must be a possibility for forgiveness of sins after death. Furthermore, prayers for the dead would be pointless unless sins could be forgiven after death. The 'place' where sins are forgiven after death is called purgatory (place of purging or cleansing). 

Further evidence is given in the gospel of Matthew:

Quote:
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come (Matthew 12:32).


http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew12.htm

When Jesus says that sins against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in the next life, one can assume that lesser sins can be forgiven in the next life, in purgatory.

The beauty of purgatory is that it makes room for the infinite mercy of the all powerful and absolutely good God, while still preserving the perfection of heaven.

I could write more, but this is already long, and I want people to read it.

Peace, Love , and Shroomyness.
:smile: :heart: :mushroom2:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5127976 -

If the arrogance that supports your philosophy/theology is correct, I prefer to suffer in Hell. Going to Heaven would be an insufferable bore. It will obviously be full of brain dead regurgitators. At least in Hell there will be some good conversation to be had, as it will be host to the greatest minds of all humanity.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5127987 -

See ya there Hue, and Happy New Year.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5128264 -

Augustine's own early writings did support free will, but his later writings rejected it.

Augustine's "A Treatise On The Predestination Of The Saints", fully supports predestination. Calvin quotes from it extensively in his book "Calvin's Calvinism". These writings are on the web and freely available. I would like to add that my authority is not writings of men, but I am illustrating the fact that Augustine held to predestination. In fact he would have to be anathematized by the Council of Trent for such a "heresy".

shroomydan
Pelagians only countenance freedom, while Calvinists only perceive grace. Pelagianism, which says that man can merit salvation, and Calvinism, which says that he is predestined regardless of his actions, both fail to recognize the virtuous middle way. Both grace and free acceptance of grace are required for salvation.

There is no middle way, it is either grace or works. The minute you try to mix a little merit you have completely demolished grace.


It is in scripture, however, Protestants had to remove a few books from the Bible in order to accommodate their new religion.

The Jewish Canon does not include the Apocrypha. No references are made to it in the NT, Jesus never quotes from it. Early church fathers like Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius, and Jerome spoke out against the Apocrypha. It was included in some Protestant bible only as historical information, but was never considered inspired. In 1546 the Roman Catholic Council of Trent declared it to be canon. Just another example of the audacity of Rome to add to God's Word. I am anathema according to Trent because I reject the Apocrypha. Perhaps they send the inquisition to burn me as a heretic.

When Jesus says that sins against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in the next life, one can assume that lesser sins can be forgiven in the next life, in purgatory.

The NT simply does not have Purgatory at all. I want to address your notion that there is such a thing as greater or lesser sins. Any sin is FATAL, even ONE. Either you have perfect righteousness, or you go to hell. Only Christ has perfect righteousness, this is sole and only reason why anyone does not go to hell, is that they are robed in Christ's righteousness, and this makes them spotless and acceptable to God.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5128295 -

Perhaps they send the inquisition to burn me as a heretic.

:hellfire: Hehehehehehehe...  :evil:








































Happy New Year Heretic. :smile:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5128393 -

Hey, temporary hell will be closed somedays, as if g*d reveals, no hell for the disbelievers is nescessary any more (will be thrown with death into the fire-lake)...
Because hell is everyones own decision to seperate from g*d in the spiritual meaning of 'trust' (of those who can not know all).
If it is possivle to see g*d and still want to seperate from him (what is possible due to free will and omnipossibility), that was, is and will be eternal hell.
Our living on earth is only a little pre-taste of it :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5128556 -

shroomydan said:
Perhaps they send the inquisition to burn me as a heretic.

:hellfire: Hehehehehehehe...  :evil:

The first time I was called a heretic was by a professor of theology around 1973. I was fairly thrilled because the man clearly understood and acknowledged my position (I was 20 years old and still adolescent) even though he adhered to the standard doctrine. The same kind of  titillation can be present for other reasons, like the exaggerated self-importance of an ego that is inflated to the degree that ideas of persecution (secretly cherished notions of martyrdom perhaps) are evidenced. Paranoia has two faces - grandiosity and persecution. The meaning here is that one needs to feel pretty important in order for the complementary delusion to arise in which 'they' are out to get me (I know too much, or I'm a righteous believer in the evil arena of the world, or I'm "ordained" by G-D [an attenuated 'anointed' by G-D, etc.).

I have had more than a passing acquaintance with paranoia in the form of a Messianic Complex. It was precipitated by excessive use of LSD in a short period of time. On one occasion, I remember standing in a tight crowd at that huge Grateful Dead show at Englishtown, NJ about 1977, and saying "A seminarian doesn't belong here." People turned and looked at me with such disgust, yet I imagined that I was a righteous Christian in the midst of thousands of godless heathen! I was tripping madly - took way too much acid - and actually left the show before the Dead hit the stage to suffer in the parking lot. When I got home, I tore up all my Grateful Dead shirts and pulled the 'Cosmic Consciousness' bumpersticker off my car. I 'realized' that my enthusiasm for the Dead was idolatry  :eek: and that I had inadvertantly been 'worshipping' 'rock idols!' Fortunately, that phase of paranoia passed and I came back to a balanced perspective, but for a time in seminary, as the expressions pencilled on bathroom walls read:

"I used to be high on acid, now I'm high on G-D."

Or

"I used to be an acid-head, now I'm a Godhead," to which someone added -
"You're a shithead." (A fairly appropriate respose I'd say to whomever the inflated person was who took himself that seriously).

A song by Larry Norman [?] a Christian musician, had the lyric:
"No more LSD for me - I met the Man from Galilee..." and I got behind that thought for a long while. When I did use psychedelics again, say on Easter Sunday, I'd contemplate the Mystery of Resurrection, read 'The Mystical Theology' of Dionysus the Areopagite, and my trips were with/in Christ. And thus it has remained, for, "...lo, I am with you alway, even to the end of the world."










































Happy New Year Heretic. :smile:



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/01/06 12:45 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5128918 -

I'm a believer in the idea that all will eventually reach salvation, including Satan himself. But those who are more pure of heart must strive to change the hearts of those who turn away from God's love. Hell is a realm of purification, not an eternal torture chamber. It is created out of our bad karma, and we will escape from it once that karma has been paid off. However, one quick way to pay off that karmic debt without such painful purification is to adopt the Christ mind, which is Jesus' gift to the world. Let his sacrifice become your sacrifice, and he will bear the weight of those sins.


--------------------

Edited by Paradigm (01/01/06 04:20 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Silversoul]
    #5128943 -

To each heart, a path is prepared, and each will follow that path for the experience. Not just our experience but the experience of Tao or God. All experience is wanted and needed and none more important than another.

OK, Now you just heard my spiel. I said it just like you all said yours, as if I know it as truth. But like what you said, it's just something I choose to believe, without knowing for sure what the truth is.

And that is about all you can say about it. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5130357 -

"When a Christian claims to be informed by the Holy Spirit, one can presume that they are not referring to metaphor alone, depicted as theophanies in the Bible, but to a real change in their consciousness. That change may translate into new values upon which to base one's life, and that change constitutes a religious experience. However, the legitimate boundaries of authority of religious experience ends with the experiencer. In other words, a religious experience can be embraced by the one having the experience, but that experience has no authority over other individuals. I may concede that someone has had a life-changing experience, but personally, I will look for the way an individual manifests that inner change in his/her demeanor, personality, actions (The Sun in my little story). I will be particularly wary of any individual who does more than share his/her experience with me - particularly if that extremely intimate experience is volunteered, not requested! Furthermore, I will be more than wary, I will experience obvious aggression from anyone who expects his/her personal religious experience to have any authority over MY life. THAT aggression is the social pathology behind every atrocity ever perpetrated in the name of GOD!"


markos, that paragraph summarizes why these people are such a burden on society really well. they assert themselves as the authority, then proceed to say God wills their authority over you.

in most societies to date there are examples of someone saying he is better than another guy. this is hardly the case since most people and their experiences can be used by others to learn from. in my opinion a leader should not threaten or coerce his followers, but instead, set up a system which they will follow voluntarily without falling into any predetermined paths for failure.


--------------------
"A friend of mine was famous for holding his hits until his face swelled up and turned bright red. The veins in his neck and forehead would bulge and he'd get bug-eyed. He'd start sweating. Then he'd belch the hit out violently, along with plenty of spit, and gasp for air." ~UBAKO

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: keefboy]
    #5130518 -

Thanks.
I will affirm that I am a Christian if someone asks, a Jewish Christian if one were to press further, and a Jewish Christian Gnostic if someone is really attempting to make contact with me, not just chat. Attitudinally, most people just tune out immediately - their eyes glaze over when it sounds like they're gonna have to listen carefully or they might learn something. Others might listen, say "very interesting," and change the subject. Still others who are extremely vested in their own doctrinal (intellectual) formulations of what Christ is or means, will be overtly hostile to anything that differs from their very particular understanding. Some will claim 'Apostolic authority' which allegedly goes back to the Biblical writings which says that Peter was "the rock" upon which the church was to be built. The Pope wears a ring which is kissed, which allegedly belonged to the Biblical Peter. It may well have been that James the [biological!] brother of Jesus, or more radically still, Mary called Magdalene was to have that honor, but the writngs were in either case changed to fit Constantine's evil agenda!

Since Fundamentalists choose to remain ignorant of Biblical scholarship, and choose to believe that the New Testament books were actually written by the same people that ostensibly accompanied Y'shua, they are fundamentally in error. The Gospel of John was written a good 90-100 years after Jesus died - stylistically and theologically completely and utterly different from the Synoptic Gospels. The lack of agreement just in this comparison alone makes the apparent unity of the four Gospels fall apart. John's Gospel, the most mythological, mystical and Hellenistic is also the one responsible for so much [unchristian] hatred towards Jews.

Half of the writings attributed to Paul show such difference in attitude, say, towards women - the egalitarian nature of early Christianity changes to a true misogynism where women can't teach, preach, or do anything but 'be quiet' in church - that half the writings of Paul were not even written by Paul. This is not just New Testament, the same thing happened in the Old Testament Book of the prophet Isaiah. In fact, some think that a woman wrote some of Isaiah (imagine that!)

Nobody seems to marvel that scriptures were not written by the originators - neither Jesus/Y'shua wrote anything that we know of, and Mohammed wrote nothing either. The Qur'an is a collage of saying attributed to The Prophet. I do not say these things to instill doubt, but Gnostics doubt. Even if Jesus never existed as a physical human being, the teachings from the Bible on love, equanimity and communion with G-D are sufficient for me to have faith in The Way (Christ). The Way is 'The Way to Be,' and it is characterized by Compassion, NOT judgement. Judgement [Severity, Kabbalistically speaking] is reserved for G-D alone. Those who claim to be Christians, conformed to Christ, who point a finger and say "You are damned!" - have so overstepped their authority as human beings, they are unconsciously assuming a role reserved for G-D. THEY are the meanest of the heretics - the inquisitors - Judgement without Mercy.

Thanks for reading and considering. It is awakening from 'The Matrix.'

Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5131953 -

Hey Markos,
now I am absolute crazy and tell you about my beliefs about John. He >is< the trinity. As in my eyes he is the disciple, the baptist, the evangelist and the one who wrote the revelation, as he is the omni-one who inhibits and is inhibited by good and evil, he needs someone who represent the good parts of g*d, in his will to create out of love.
This one is Jesus and John saw it as baptist coming from the sky down to him. As his disciple, he was the most intime one..as baptist he had to loos his head beacuse of the truth...

John is the one to refer to, who has seen Jesus clothed as g*d in flesh :smile:

Doesn't gnosis has anything to tell ?

:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (01/02/06 04:47 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5132177 -

Come on, noone has any reference in the bible for Jesus being in hell after crucification, besides mine ?

fivepointer ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5132298 -

Sorry, I can't interpret your own particular belief, if that is what you're requesting.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5132313 -

So there aren't any links to gnosis for that ? Hmmm...
okaaayyy , thanks anyways :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5132627 -

BlueCoyote said:
Come on, noone has any reference in the bible for Jesus being in hell after crucification, besides mine ?

fivepointer ?


i have also read that the bible describes jesus descending to hell in the days prior to his resurrection in order to preach to the souls there and help them find the way out. i don't know where this is in the bible though so i can't really help you.

Edited by Deviate (01/02/06 07:20 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5132814 -

CUBErt said:
The other day I was sitting with some friends downtown and we were approached by two young guys who stopped to ask us if we were 100% sure we would go to heaven if we died. I thought to myself "can anyone be 100% sure?" But I remained silent while they spoke with my other, blatantly anti-christian friends. Their whole deal was about accepting Jesus and asking us if we really had a concept of hell and if we really wanted to go there. When I began speaking, I explained that I had gone to Catholic school for 10 years and knew plenty about Christianity, but that I began to question the faith as I got older. (Now for the part that really bothered me) I started asking them about the legitimacy of other major religions like Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. I said that I considered myself Christian but that there are many other faiths that connect us all to the same God with many of the same basic moral standards. In reply they said that these religions were all missing Jesus Christ, the mid-point between us and God. So then I asked "what about people who live in isolation and never hear about Jesus? are they going to hell?" They said that the Bible says that everybody gets a chance to hear about God. I do not remember seeing that in the Bible but perhaps they were right. They used the Bible passage "I am the way, the truth, and the light. Nobody cometh unto the father except through me."

Anyways, since then I have just been feeling somewhat upset. My friend argued with them that Christianity is a bunch of paranoia, and I would consider myself a pretty paranoid person. I have been thinking alot:
-Wondering if I might be hell-bound
-Thinking of all the wonderful people on these boards and that I know in person who would be denied eternal bliss for believing something that is just as practical to them as Jesus Christ is to Christians.
-Coming to terms with the thought that I may have only remained Christian for so long for fear of hell.
-Wondering how a God of infinite wisdom could expect human beings all to jump on the same bandwagon when there are so many untrustworthy people around, especially in religion.

I was just wondering how other people felt about this issue, and hoping to gain some insight from those who are more well-read on spirituality then myself.



you know something like this happened to me and one of my friends while we were at the skate park he said when you die can you be 100% sure that you'll go to heaven then he hands us a little booklet and says well you can it was frightening kinda like an infomercial and we challenged his argument and he just struggled to come up with a response he was just completely dumb founded just standing there like a lifeless robot or something he was so brainwashed that he completely lost all hope he couldn't even come up with a legit statement to back up how he felt i mean this guy really needed to start questioning things that are presented to him and think for himself a little more


--------------------

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: psyka]
    #5132838 -

psyka said:
I know I'm going to hell.

Why? Because I believe in the Force.

http://www.ooze.com/toolofsatan/


WHAT?


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Thrasher420x]
    #5132863 -

Thrasher420x said:
CUBErt said:
The other day I was sitting with some friends downtown and we were approached by two young guys who stopped to ask us if we were 100% sure we would go to heaven if we died. I thought to myself "can anyone be 100% sure?" But I remained silent while they spoke with my other, blatantly anti-christian friends. Their whole deal was about accepting Jesus and asking us if we really had a concept of hell and if we really wanted to go there. When I began speaking, I explained that I had gone to Catholic school for 10 years and knew plenty about Christianity, but that I began to question the faith as I got older. (Now for the part that really bothered me) I started asking them about the legitimacy of other major religions like Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. I said that I considered myself Christian but that there are many other faiths that connect us all to the same God with many of the same basic moral standards. In reply they said that these religions were all missing Jesus Christ, the mid-point between us and God. So then I asked "what about people who live in isolation and never hear about Jesus? are they going to hell?" They said that the Bible says that everybody gets a chance to hear about God. I do not remember seeing that in the Bible but perhaps they were right. They used the Bible passage "I am the way, the truth, and the light. Nobody cometh unto the father except through me."

Anyways, since then I have just been feeling somewhat upset. My friend argued with them that Christianity is a bunch of paranoia, and I would consider myself a pretty paranoid person. I have been thinking alot:
-Wondering if I might be hell-bound
-Thinking of all the wonderful people on these boards and that I know in person who would be denied eternal bliss for believing something that is just as practical to them as Jesus Christ is to Christians.
-Coming to terms with the thought that I may have only remained Christian for so long for fear of hell.
-Wondering how a God of infinite wisdom could expect human beings all to jump on the same bandwagon when there are so many untrustworthy people around, especially in religion.

I was just wondering how other people felt about this issue, and hoping to gain some insight from those who are more well-read on spirituality then myself.



you know something like this happened to me and one of my friends while we were at the skate park he said when you die can you be 100% sure that you'll go to heaven then he hands us a little booklet and says well you can it was frightening kinda like an infomercial and we challenged his argument and he just struggled to come up with a response he was just completely dumb founded just standing there like a lifeless robot or something he was so brainwashed that he completely lost all hope he couldn't even come up with a legit statement to back up how he felt i mean this guy really needed to start questioning things that are presented to him and think for himself a little more


This guy must live near us man. Either that or fundamentalist Baptist churches across the globe have established a new marketing campaign.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5132870 -

HE DECENDED INTO HELL, is not in the bible. Check out the link, it's part of the teachings of the Catholic church.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5132930 -

itstarssaddam said:
Thrasher420x said:
CUBErt said:
The other day I was sitting with some friends downtown and we were approached by two young guys who stopped to ask us if we were 100% sure we would go to heaven if we died. I thought to myself "can anyone be 100% sure?" But I remained silent while they spoke with my other, blatantly anti-christian friends. Their whole deal was about accepting Jesus and asking us if we really had a concept of hell and if we really wanted to go there. When I began speaking, I explained that I had gone to Catholic school for 10 years and knew plenty about Christianity, but that I began to question the faith as I got older. (Now for the part that really bothered me) I started asking them about the legitimacy of other major religions like Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. I said that I considered myself Christian but that there are many other faiths that connect us all to the same God with many of the same basic moral standards. In reply they said that these religions were all missing Jesus Christ, the mid-point between us and God. So then I asked "what about people who live in isolation and never hear about Jesus? are they going to hell?" They said that the Bible says that everybody gets a chance to hear about God. I do not remember seeing that in the Bible but perhaps they were right. They used the Bible passage "I am the way, the truth, and the light. Nobody cometh unto the father except through me."

Anyways, since then I have just been feeling somewhat upset. My friend argued with them that Christianity is a bunch of paranoia, and I would consider myself a pretty paranoid person. I have been thinking alot:
-Wondering if I might be hell-bound
-Thinking of all the wonderful people on these boards and that I know in person who would be denied eternal bliss for believing something that is just as practical to them as Jesus Christ is to Christians.
-Coming to terms with the thought that I may have only remained Christian for so long for fear of hell.
-Wondering how a God of infinite wisdom could expect human beings all to jump on the same bandwagon when there are so many untrustworthy people around, especially in religion.

I was just wondering how other people felt about this issue, and hoping to gain some insight from those who are more well-read on spirituality then myself.



you know something like this happened to me and one of my friends while we were at the skate park he said when you die can you be 100% sure that you'll go to heaven then he hands us a little booklet and says well you can it was frightening kinda like an infomercial and we challenged his argument and he just struggled to come up with a response he was just completely dumb founded just standing there like a lifeless robot or something he was so brainwashed that he completely lost all hope he couldn't even come up with a legit statement to back up how he felt i mean this guy really needed to start questioning things that are presented to him and think for himself a little more


This guy must live near us man. Either that or fundamentalist Baptist churches across the globe have established a new marketing campaign.


I'm going with the globally established marketing campaign i mean how else are they going to ensure recruitment of new shitheads


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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5133131 -

Fear not, it is the hate-filled that are already children of Hell, children of wrath. Imagine basing one's life on a doctrine made by intellectual stooges of an emperor! Jesus wrote nothing down. He was not full of Himself, He was emptied of self. His words may have survived in some of the logia of Thomas, perhaps 'Q' and something in Mark. Everything else was elaboration, fabrication, insertion, creation. Christ is Logos if one believes, not the imperfect transformation into Greek fragments on parchment. Love G-D and your neighbor as yourself.

+++ Return thou to Hell all ye miscreants who threaten good people with the fear and hate of thy twisted souls - in the Name of Y'shua Ha Mashiach. Amen +++


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/03/06 05:40 AM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5133139 -

Hey Markos, I'm sure you're aware of the Jesus Seminar. What are your thoughts on it, particularly their methods? Do you think that what they've done has any legitimacy?


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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5133254 -

:smile: Everything else was elaboration, fabrication, insertion, creation.

Else that is all. 

Without elaboration there is no understanding.
Without fabrication there is no structure.
Without insertion there is no belonging.
Without creation there is no growth.

Be thankful you are not a child of wrath, that stillness may comfort you,
and that their hell can not touch you.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Silversoul]
    #5134121 -

The theologian Crossan and others are legitimate scholars who set out to determine how/when the NT writings were written and arranged. Another pioneer is John Shelby Spong whose book Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes is unparallelled in its scope of a single text.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: falcon]
    #5134131 -

Thank you. Yes, I am thankful throughout the day - not in a Pharasaic way but in quiet, inner-directed state of gratitude. "Set the controls for the heart of the sun [Son]..."


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: falcon]
    #5134885 -

falcon, thank you so much for the link ! I will check it out, as there are references to the bible there ! :heart:

fivepointer, catechism :smile: Doesn't that ring a bell within you ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Thrasher420x]
    #5135398 -

Thrasher420x said:
you know something like this happened to me and one of my friends while we were at the skate park he said when you die can you be 100% sure that you'll go to heaven then he hands us a little booklet and says well you can


Yeah I forgot to mention we got the booklet as well :P
Great posts everyone, its been some interesting reading  :thumbup:


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5135405 -

CUBErt said:
Thrasher420x said:
you know something like this happened to me and one of my friends while we were at the skate park he said when you die can you be 100% sure that you'll go to heaven then he hands us a little booklet and says well you can


Yeah I forgot to mention we got the booklet as well :P
Great posts everyone, its been some interesting reading  :thumbup:


How is your fear about hell doing?  Do you still wonder if you are hell-bound?

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5135427 -

even if you are " hell bound " , eventually we will all return to heaven ( if you believe in the chirstian word )
ya know it is actually quite an interesting story ( the whole satan/lucifer not bowing to humans etc. ) although i find it twisted by many of the different mystics and conquering bodies over time. basically what im trying to say is
... keep conscience clear, and have no fear.

why live any other type of life? be blissful.


--------------------
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one

Diploid said:
What's with proclaiming freedom by abridging freedom? That makes no sense.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5135680 -

I'm not a believer of creationism, i think Darwin's evolutionary theory is more logical.


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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Thrasher420x]
    #5135792 -

BlueCoyote wrote:
"fivepointer, catechism Doesn't that ring a bell within you ? "

Honestly, no.

I was never raised with a catechism, I was raised with no religion at all.
I know of several Protestant catechisms, but I do not spend time reading them at all.


If your interested, I found a catechism that is good at:

http://www.the-faith.org.uk/gadsby.html

By William Gadsby (1773-1844)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5135943 -

EllemyshShade said:
How is your fear about hell doing?  Do you still wonder if you are hell-bound?


To be honest, I think I will always have that in the back of my mind. However, it has been very refreshing and comforting to hear different perspectives. Many of the ideas that have been expressed seem to be more in sync with the loving and understanding God that I have always known. Thank you for your concern Elle  :smile:

In addition to this, I have been thinking alot about various religions and how each of them seems to have different "miracles" (or whatever the particular faith calls them). For instance, the miracles that Jesus worked, and modern day miracles with people being healed, and what is going on with the kid who is supposedly the reincarnation of Buddha, or for instance something I saw on TV a while back about these statues of Ganesh in India that actually drank the milk that people served to them (was a while ago, not sure if it was a hoax or not). But anyways, my point is that all these different faiths have miracles or unexplainable happenings behind them. Perhaps the same God is behind every one of these occurences, in order to reaffirm people's different faiths and keep the path to heaven as diverse as possible.


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5136249 -

There is only ONE path and ONE gospel! Any other way is the way of death.

From "Who Hath Believed Our Report?"
http://www.godsonlygospel.com/Who%20Hath%20Believed%20Our%20Report2.htm

This is the prime evidence that God has come to a person and revealed Himself to them. Belief of the Gospel is of paramount importance because it is the evidence that God has graciously favored a person with His faith, which can only believe His Gospel. This is why if there is no saving faith there can be no salvation. Belief in a false gospel?an incomplete gospel is also classified as such?is the unmistakable sign that a person is not a child of God but a child of the Devil, for in believing a false gospel, one automatically rejects the true, showing that one has not been given the faith of God. "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:8); "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ (of Paul?s Gospel) let him be anathema..." (1 Cor. 16:22); "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God..." (2 Jn. 9); "...preach the Gospel to every creature...He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk. 16:15,16). And to those who scoff at what we say, who believe one can be saved without the Gospel of God, "...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST" (2 Thess. 1:7,8 cf. 1 Pet. 4:17). You will be rained on by the wrath of God who believe not His Gospel, for if you do not abide in the Doctrine of Christ the wrath of God abides on you (see 2 Jn. 9 & Jn. 3:36)!

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5136429 -

:rofl2: You're a hoot fivepointer. :thumbup:

Edited by Icelander (01/03/06 08:15 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5136487 -

BlueCoyote said:
Come on, noone has any reference in the bible for Jesus being in hell after crucification, besides mine ?

Hey, how about this: Jesus was a Jew - Jews all go to Hell (along with Hindus, Buddhists, etc.) - therfore Jesus the Jew must go to Hell.

Oh, but Jesus was a unique Jew, the ONLY Jew who did not go to Hell permanently. No, wait, that's not logical. If Jesus took the OT righteous with Him, then there were other Jews who were only in Hell temporarily. But then, how is it that righteous men and women went to Hell? Oh, right, there is no salvation unless one believes in Jesus as the mouthpiece of the salvific doctrine. But everything that Jesus said came directly from the OT (except of course the Hellenistic stuff that was put into His mouth by the Biblical authors. It wasn't sufficient to come from a burning bush, a still small voice within, or the mouth of Balaam's jackass. One has to hear it anew from Y'shua, so He had to be born first. One could spin off such absurdities and illogic from a literal, linear, historical interpretation that one must either be mad or go mad in the process.

The Roman Catholics made this harrowing of Hell doctrine to allow Jesus (like Hermes decending into Hades in the Greek myth to rescue  Persephone, daughter of Demeter, The Earth Mother) to preach to those Old Testament figures who just couldn't go to G-D because the Eternal Logos had not been manifested as a human being in Jesus yet. So, they all waited a thousand years more or less, biding eternity in Sheol (Jewish, pre-Dantean Hell) until Jesus could take the astral elevator into the bowels of the Earth to rescue them. (Hey, there IS some internal logic to this ancient 'Dungeons & Dragons' type story, and it IS built out of the same archetypal elelments as the Greek myths [what a surprise]  :rolleyes:).

But enough of mythology and metaphysics. The real word is midrash.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5136985 -

fivepointer said:
There is only ONE path and ONE gospel! Any other way is the way of death.

From "Who Hath Believed Our Report?"
http://www.godsonlygospel.com/Who%20Hath%20Believed%20Our%20Report2.htm

This is the prime evidence that God has come to a person and revealed Himself to them. Belief of the Gospel is of paramount importance because it is the evidence that God has graciously favored a person with His faith, which can only believe His Gospel. This is why if there is no saving faith there can be no salvation. Belief in a false gospel?an incomplete gospel is also classified as such?is the unmistakable sign that a person is not a child of God but a child of the Devil, for in believing a false gospel, one automatically rejects the true, showing that one has not been given the faith of God. "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:8); "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ (of Paul?s Gospel) let him be anathema..." (1 Cor. 16:22); "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God..." (2 Jn. 9); "...preach the Gospel to every creature...He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk. 16:15,16). And to those who scoff at what we say, who believe one can be saved without the Gospel of God, "...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST" (2 Thess. 1:7,8 cf. 1 Pet. 4:17). You will be rained on by the wrath of God who believe not His Gospel, for if you do not abide in the Doctrine of Christ the wrath of God abides on you (see 2 Jn. 9 & Jn. 3:36)!


And Since there are many gospels that were never put into the Bible, or were modified first, one might consider all Bibles to be incomplete.

And what do you mean God has "graciously favored a person with his grace?" I disagree with statements like this and that whole predestination idea. If God only favors certain people, what is the point of living if you are not one of those people?


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5137087 -

fivepointer said:
There is only ONE path and ONE gospel! Any other way is the way of death.


I believe the best thing that can happen to a human is death. So that "this is the one way and all other ways are death" thing just doesn't frighten me anymore.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5137757 -

There is NO such thing as Biblical infallibility. It is not a myth, myths are universal truths portrayed in illustrative drama. Biblical infallibility idolatrously raised a created 'thing' to an ontological status that is 'uncreated.' In other words, the false doctrine of Biblical infallibility - as old and as powerful are its effects are even today for forming fanatics (not 'fans') - has attempted to turn an object, a book, into GOD. Then, the fanatic (one usually who does not complete normal developmental processes in one or more domains) fills the inner emptiness with archaic written content.

It is not sufficient to glean metaphysical 'possibilities,' those 'possibilities are clenched with the frenzy of psychological survival! Those writings become the very content of the intellectual and attendant emotional parts of the fanatic. Unfortunately, it also causes a paranoid inflation - and this is what every deviant cult leader uses to persuade his flock - it is as persuasive as was that most famous paranoid leader Adolph Hitler. The same processes, not necessarily the same agenda and world view. Paranoia is paranoia. To threaten the paranoid's belief is to threaten the paranoid himself. Unbelief is a personal affront and the emotional reaction is loud and clear! Meanwhile, such strength of intention can have far-reaching effects on the psyches of listeners, even eliciting guilt-ridden complexes buried since childhood about 'sin' and impending punishment (a childhood fear co-mingled with metaphysical horrors of Hell). Paranoia ends up addressing old doubts and fears going back to childhood while asserting some paternalistic authority which draws upon MALE figures of divinity (i.e., GOD, The Father, The Son [of Man, of GOD]).

I wish to clarify the mechanics of religious fundamentalist mentality and its effects upon those exposed to them. Their own lives are marked with destructive and self-destructive aspects (whether ascetic renunciant, flagellant, martyr or self-immolating bomber), and their effects on the lives of others is also destructive (if not deadly). Fanaticism is NOT faith it is pathology. Please be clear on that anyone who feels ill-effected.

Peace, Love and Freedom to Do Both,
Yours truly (in Christ),
Mark[ostheGnostic]


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/06/06 10:26 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5139444 -

To anyone who wanna read:

I just talked with a good friend of mine. A catholic priest, 65 years, italian and he found the idea of Jesus being in hell after crucification equal funny as me. He also said, there mixed someone the idea of dantes inferno or hades with hell :lol: We looked in his catechism, which he gave me with me and there was no word about that. I will do your websearch, falcon and fivepointer (thanks), either.

I asked him too about only those who heard of Jesus would come to heaven and he almost was shocked. Same as me. He said, EVERY human on this planet will get at least ONE chance to find the way (back) to g*d if he was diverted from him by sin (I use this * for him too, because he's a really cool priest [also Dr.. in philosophy !]). It only gets 'problematic' if you don't find that way (back) before you die while being 'divorced'. BUT there are many different ways !
Jesus simply was one, who traveled in the desert and suddenly found an oasis. He turned around to his fellows shouting "Here, look, here ! Come over here !"
He would have been an asshole, if he did not do that.

AND the catholic church has CLEARLY turned away from fear, as they see 'making fear' as a sin NOW. It is the opposite of love and g*d and/or Jesus would not 'emit' that in his/their 'original' way.

amen

edit: I hope this *blasts* everyone as much as it does to me !!

:heartpump:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (01/04/06 05:26 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5139767 -

CUBErt
And what do you mean God has "graciously favored a person with his grace?" I disagree with statements like this and that whole predestination idea. If God only favors certain people, what is the point of living if you are not one of those people?

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

This objection is answered in Romans Chapter 9. Read these verses carefully.

Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 ? What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5139933 -

Saulus the Paulus, aeh or was it Paulus the Saulus


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5140251 -

I have three questions for you fivepointer.

1) Why do you consider scripture to be your ultimate authority when:

  a)The Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture,  including the Deuterocanonical texts and excluding many other books like the Gospel of Thomas,
  *and*
  b) Nothing in Scripture says that Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith. Instead, the Bible says that the Church, not Scripture, is "the pillar and foundation of truth"(1 Tim. 3:15), and the final judge of disputes among Christians (Matt. 18:17)?

2) Why do you insist on using an archaic translation, which is difficult to understand, when there are accurate translations from the Greek and Hebrew into modern English? Was King James some kind of prophet?


3) If you believe the theory of predestination to be correct, in spite of all Jesus' teaching about what to do and what not to do, then why are you trying to convince us that you are right?

There is no way for you to affect our beliefs because they are predestined, and your words can not help anyone achieve salvation, because all who read them are already predestined either to heaven or to hell.

What you are doing just doesn't make any sense. :shrug:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5141077 -

Nice post shroomydan, as well as the post in the eternal sin thread.

Fivepointer, I will try and sift through your antiquated passage at a time when I have less homework. I would ask for a simple translation but for obvious reasons I am somewhat skeptical of your judgement and interperetation.


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5142134 -

This is within Paulus letter to the romans. I think he was struggeling within his faith himself, so his words are more of an inner reflection of his own fight about his justifications. As he was a 'fallen' hellenistic and pharisean Jew, he struggled for and with the 'God is only for Israel'-statement from them. He said, god stands to his treaty with Israel, but not everyone who comes from Israel is an Israelit.
He jokes at the end, RWB (Romans 11,25f):
11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part hath happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles shall be come in.
11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
11:27 For this {is} my covenant to them, when I shall take away their sins.

But I am in general very critical to Paulus. I often and usually read him as a very agressive one and my sense of humor hasn't developed so far to always understand him in a slightly ironical way.
In essence he says: Until all the others are saved to god, then the Israelites will be finally saved, too. That is a joke, imho ! :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (01/05/06 03:20 AM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5142155 -

And to be more clear: In this whole letter, he states how could he believe in exclusive salvation as a Jew if he is now a christ. That is WHY he believes in christ and not the jewish exclusivety.

So this argument is for christian-god, not is an exclusive god (in relevance to someones 'genes' or predestination) like the Jewish god seemed to be !

quite circle-tricky...Paulus is a struggler.

edit:
NRS Matthew 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (01/05/06 04:33 AM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5143874 -

1) Why do you consider scripture to be your ultimate authority when:

a)The Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture, including the Deuterocanonical texts and excluding many other books like the Gospel of Thomas,
*and*

I have already refuted the Deuterocanonical (Apocrypha) books in my previous posting, they are not canonical, and were added in 1542 by the Council of Trent.

The early church, before any Roman Catholic Church even existed, already widely agreed on what books are canonical. The Council of Carthage (397 A.D.) listed as canonical "only those books that were generally regarded by the consensus of use as properly a canon". In other words, it didn't create the canon. Rather, it formally identified the canon that already existed.


b) Nothing in Scripture says that Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith. Instead, the Bible says that the Church, not Scripture, is "the pillar and foundation of truth"(1 Tim. 3:15), and the final judge of disputes among Christians (Matt. 18:17)?

Why where the Pharisees unbraided by Jesus? Because they put traditions above the Word of God, seems things never change.

Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Lu 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Scripture does declare itself as given by inspiration of God repeatedly.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


2) Why do you insist on using an archaic translation, which is difficult to understand, when there are accurate translations from the Greek and Hebrew into modern English?

The KJV is not hard to understand. While no translation is perfect, the KJV is relatively better than any modern translation.

Was King James some kind of prophet?

No.

3) If you believe the theory of predestination to be correct, in spite of all Jesus' teaching about what to do and what not to do, then why are you trying to convince us that you are right?

There is no way for you to affect our beliefs because they are predestined, and your words can not help anyone achieve salvation, because all who read them are already predestined either to heaven or to hell.

Because I do not know if the reader is elect or not. I know that the gospel (which is the person and work of Jesus Christ), will be understood by those who are given ears. It is not my business to determine whether someone is elect or reprobate. The gospel is the means by which the elect are brought to conversion.

While someone confesses a false gospel, (such as salvation conditioned on the sinner), should be judged to be currently unregenerate and lost, this does not mean they will remain that way, as they might be granted repentance and belief of the truth.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5144510 -

This is my last reply to this post.


The early church, before any Roman Catholic Church even existed

There is no such thing as the "Roman Catholic Church", there is only "One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church". The Catholic Church has more than twenty rites (rituals). Chaldean, Maronite, Malankarese, Coptic, Roman, Melkite, and Ruthenian are a few you may have heard of. All are faithful to the magisterium. The entire list is here.
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/newman/Pages/fr-catholicrites.html



I have already refuted the Deuterocanonical (Apocrypha) books in my previous posting, they are not canonical, and were added in 1542 by the Council of Trent.

The early church, before any Roman Catholic Church even existed, already widely agreed on what books are canonical. The Council of Carthage (397 A.D.) listed as canonical "only those books that were generally regarded by the consensus of use as properly a canon". In other words, it didn't create the canon. Rather, it formally identified the canon that already existed.

Your assertion is simply false.
I highly recommend this entire article to anyone interested in the history of the Bible.

Quote:
The first official council that accepted the present New Testament canon was a local synod, the Council of Hippo in 393. The minutes of that council have been lost, but they were read into the record at the Council of Carthage in 397. Canon 24 from that Synod reads as follows:

Besides the canonical Scriptures, nothing shall be read in church under the name of divine Scriptures. Moreover, the canonical Scriptures are these: [then follows a list of Old Testament books, including all of the deuterocanonical books].


http://www.godtouches.org/deutero-intro.html


Scripture does declare itself as given by inspiration of God repeatedly.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
OK, I forgot about that one.  :tongue:
Scripture is inspired, but what is and what is not scripture? See above.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
"Spake", I don't see "writeth"!

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
"Heard", not "read". There was no written Gospel at the time of St. Paul's evangelizing. Spoken word is Tradition!

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Quote:
Indeed, the word of God is living and effective, sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating even between soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and able to discern reflections and thoughts of the heart. No creature is concealed from him, but everything is naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must render an account. Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession. (Hebrews 4:12-14)

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews4.htm

When taken in context, "the Word of God" is clearly referring to the person Jesus; "No creature is concealed from him." Recall the beginning of the Gospel of John.
Quote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God...And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth (John 1: 1 - 14).

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john1.htm

To interpret "word of God" to mean "scripture" in the passage you cited would be akin translating the preamble of John as "In the beginning there was the Bible."

The KJV is not hard to understand. While no translation is perfect, the KJV is relatively better than any modern translation.
Everybody is entitled to his opinion, however, the use of archaic words like "sheweth" rather than "showed" tends to render it difficult for most people to read. 


Because I do not know if the reader is elect or not. I know that the gospel (which is the person and work of Jesus Christ), will be understood by those who are given ears. It is not my business to determine whether someone is elect or reprobate. The gospel is the means by which the elect are brought to conversion.

While someone confesses a false gospel, (such as salvation conditioned on the sinner), should be judged to be currently unregenerate and lost, this does not mean they will remain that way, as they might be granted repentance and belief of the truth.
If change is possible, then predestination is not valid. If accepting the 'true' Gospel is requisite for salvation, then salvation is dependent on the work of man!

You have misrepresented facts of history (St. Augustine, Council of Carthage), and your position on evangelizing the predestined is incoherent.

The good news is that the Truth is out there for you to find, if you open your eyes and your mind.

Quote:
This is why I speak to them in parables, because 'they look but do not see and hear but do not listen or understand.' Isaiah's prophecy is fulfilled in them, which says: 'You shall indeed hear but not understand you shall indeed look but never see. Gross is the heart of this people, they will hardly hear with their ears, they have closed their eyes, lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and be converted, and I heal them.'


http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew13.htm

Much love Friend.
:heart:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5148491 -

An inseparable gulf lies between Sola Scriptura and Scripture + tradition as the basis for truth and all doctrine.

Scripture is infallible, and good for all doctrine. Men are fallible, traditions of men only seem to make untruth more solid as it gets wrapped "respectability", "reputation" and "history".

Let me explain my position on the predestination, nothing is a requisite for salvation, not faith, not correct doctrine, not repentance. Correct doctrine is an immediate result of conversion, it is not a cause of conversion. The Spirit teaches every one of the elect what the gospel is and is not, and what is the sole and only ground of salvation, which is the person and work of Jesus Christ alone. Every broken sinner knows immediately upon conversion that human merit can not enter into salvation, since sinners have no merit to bring! If I believed that correct doctrine was a requisite to salvation, that would make the work of correct doctrine the merit that obtains salvation. If I believed this I would be lost.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5148503 -

I think you are lost anyway. Just my 2 cents fivepointer. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5149386 -

A White Fraternal Christian Brotherhood. The insignia worn on the left breast is an equilateral cross at the center of which is a diamond which holds a 'drop of Christ's blood.' They have a philosophy and a '[c]hristian' theology which is absolutely intolerant of any interpretation of Biblical writ other than their own, including all moderate Protestant sects, Catholics, Coptics and Orthodox. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. The pointed hood though in white, not black, is reminiscent of the medieval Inquisitor's hood. Many members belong to Southern Baptist congregations which idolatize the Bible as the infallible Word of GOD and can justify Ku Klux Klan ideology by a literal interpretation of those words. This is Fundamentalist [c]hristianity at its most extreme, although the atrocities of their past fortunately have declined in the present. They call their rite 'cross lightings' not 'burnings' but to find one on your property does not symbolize love, but rather hate and threat of death.

Here is a lynching of a Black man - a representative action of American [c]hristian Fundamentalism, and a Muslim Fundamentalist beheading about to commence. Both of the Fundamentalist extremist groups hate each other with a depth of feeling that reaches straight down to proverbial Hell, yet the first group claims to be founded on the metaphysical nature of Love and the second group claims in every Sura of its Qur'an to be based upon the equivalent in it's tradition "Allah the Compassionate, the Merciful."

What is wrong with all of these pictures? One can only stand back and witness with pristine detachment the truth about fanaticism in both camps. Their doctrines differ but their convictions are on a par with one another, as are their atrocities.

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/07/06 11:46 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5149908 -

Markos again shows his backhanded slander technique by equating Fundamentalist Christians", (a term he still hasn't defined, yet he as labeled me as such) to the KKK and Muslim Fundamentalism and lynchings.

What he is really saying is anyone who believes in the fundamentals of Christianity (I will biefly define the term - Sola Scriptura, Sovereign Grace, physical existence, resurrection and Deity of Jesus Christ, justification by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone apart from human merits) is filled with hate.

Just because some men take the term "Christian", and then go and lynch people, this does not make them Christian. Anyone who would do such a thing obviously has not been born of the Spirit, and the love of God has not been shed abroad in their hearts.

Why paint a whole group based on the actions of those who obviously do not hold to the faith? Don't let your anger against the truth of gospel (which is summed up as the person and work of Jesus Christ) consume you.

Markos denies the core doctrines of the faith, and has been called out and exposed. I hope that in time Markos may know the grace of God in truth.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5150145 -

Much nonsense. Intolerant Christians abound and not that many belong to the KKK. I grew up in a baptist church and saw first hand the hypocrisy and hate preached in my church. I also grew up in a mostly Catholic neighborhood and witnessed the same hatred and condemnation of the heathen nonbelievers. My assessment now is that it is based mainly in poor parenting, education, and living in a fear based culture.

As far as Markos is concerned. Here is someone who can be called a Christian. While being an imperfect human with fallibilities he continues to strive after the principles of love and compassion that make Christ's life an example for some to emulate.

You have focused on condemnation to hell as the punishment of all who oppose your beliefs and show very little in the way of love outside of mouthing some platitudes so you don't appear totally the way you really believe. You are among the chosen few. Which is a hysterical farce IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5150257 -

I did not address you, I addressed the subject at hand which reeks far more of the psychologies of the different posters (all of us) than any metaphysic any of us chooses to embrace. This kind of post ferrets out your motives however, in which your judgement of my spiritual status is written out. This needs to be shown to others here because it reveals not my spiritual status, but rather, your psychological status. You are ego-inflated as are the majority of human beings who assume this kind of religious stance. Ego-inflation, regardless of the trigger: religious fervor, bipolar disorder, cocaine/amphetamine euphoria, etc. all lead the individual to an 'assumed' moral high ground. Individuals feel above the masses and perpetrate all manner of crimes against others. The religious situation is different because it claims justification for the actions based on a 'yard-stick,' a gold-standard' of morality deemed so by virtue of its supernatural origin. Christian and Muslim Fundamentalist-Literalist believers alike are blind to their psychological dyanamics. They fail to see that they are BOTH saying exactly the same thing: 'I am right and you are wrong!' - and they do not have the ability to detach from their own psychological processes to examine the relativity of their respective perspectives. You sir are such an individual. You are in reality NOT in a position to assess the true spiritual status of another human being EXCEPT by the rules of the doctrinal game that you have chosen to adopt. Such absolutism is, as human history continues to demonstrate (or demonstrate) the very core of our planetary religious madness. GOD and GOD alone - not the differing human IDEAS of GOD, but Very Reality Itself will determine who is 'right with GOD' not you, not any man or woman with a book and a doctrine and an agenda consciously or unconsciously held. Re-read 1 Corinthians 13 and remember how 'love' manifests in human psychology. Rabid fanaticism is clearly not the state of being that is described therein.

The Bible is spuriously historical according to the best archeologists and historians of our time and mythological in large measure. The Genesis account is undeniably written in Hebrew midrashic style and is similar to to many of the ancient creation myths. To state that thr Genesis account is a scientific or phenomenologically accurate account of physical incidents, while all other creation stories are false, is indicative of the psychology of the person making such affirmation, not a revelation of truth.

The 'moralities' included in the Bible contains murders of children, genocide, and incest. That Matthew begins with "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David...," and David was said to be an adulterer and murderer of Hezekiah the Hittite. It is gross error to miss the juxtaposition of goodness and evil as depicted in writings, and fail to see the evil while affirming historicity to any goodness. A geneology between Jesus and Adam links Jesus to Joseph in classic patriarchal fashion, but the inconsistency is obvious - Jesus would have been of the blood-line of Mary if parthenogenesis were really meant to be taken physically instead of mytho-poetically. The mistranslation of the Hebrew into Greek, from 'Matthew' reading Isaiah in Greek not Hebrew gives us Mary as a 'virgin' [parthenos] instead of 'young woman' [almah: Hebrew]. The Hebrew 'betula' means virgin, but both concepts are collapsed into one word 'parthenos' in Greek. The Hebrew Isaiah did NOT use the word for virgin, it was a mistranslation owing to the lack of differentiation in Greek! Matthew should not have used the Greek Septuigint for his source, but the original Hebrew. This is but one example, but the entire history of the Virgin Mary, the tradition of monasticism, the virgin birth all derive from one single mistranslated word!

I am not attacking the value of Biblical wisdom, neither do I attack one man's choice to be a Muslim, another a Christian, another a Jew. But, in common to all these faiths is a literal interpretation which is rigid and absolutist and is inconsistent with what is known of the mentality of the people of millenia past. It is an interpretation that is contrary to common sense and empirical science alike. Adherence to anything which is contradicted by common sense (sense organs) and science may be taken as a transcendental attitude of faith - a faith which can deny the obvious world for an assertion of scripture. But this is denial of reality, not transcendence of the profane/mundane world. Absolutism, literalness is a misdirected plea for certitude in a domain which yields no certitude. The answer is to 'let be,' or "Let it be" as the Beatles sang. Nobody is in a position to affirm past a certain point - that point which yields order and peace to one's individual existence, beyond which the only sane perspective must admit to a 'maybe' - maybe I'm wrong, maybe he's right, maybe we're both wrong, maybe we're both right, etc. With a sufficiently 'high' perspective, one can hold the opposites in union. That is the goal, to see 'sub specie aeternitatus' - under the aspect of eternity. The goal is not merely to play a role on the battlefield of life and the soul. That is the meaning of the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita btw, which every Hindu understands to be true while being mythological and metaphorical. Try to grasp Truth with a faculty other than the one you've been employing and you will see this (not my) point. I appreciate spiritual struggle, but I also have learned a little to relax my white-knuckled grip, to let be and let GOD be incontrol with fear of sinking ito the quagmire of dissipation. Take a deep living breath and sigh/die in each moment. The opposites to which I refer are in that inspiration-expiration.

Shalom.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5150444 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
This kind of post ferrets out your motives however, in which your judgement of my spiritual status is written out.


Obviously this is not relevant to the discussion at hand, but I would just like to comment that your appropriate use of the verb "ferrets" was much appreciated. :grin: Very creative and expressive, and it reminds me of when one of my ferrets will tunnel underneath the blankets of my bed, and the other will notice the lumps in motion and will dive underneath, sense the movements, and will proceed to tunnel right up to the other's exact location (very much akin to their application of rushing rabbits out of their holes, i'm sure). :lol: Very intriguing! :thumbup:

Quote:

Ego-inflation, regardless of the trigger: religious fervor, bipolar disorder, cocaine/amphetamine euphoria


Since I've already interupted this flow of discussion, I might as well add one more comment. This reference to cocaine/amphetamine euphoria in the context in which it was used is suggestive of the nature of George W. Bush's sympathetic ear to fundamentalist Christians. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5151193 -

Markos denies core gospel doctrine, therefore he is to be marked and Christians are to separate from him. Christians are not called to endlessly bicker with a known heretic, but admonish, and if no correction is seen, separate. All who associate with him and call him "brother", they partake of his wickedness by speaking spiritual peace to him. They to are to be marked and avoided.


2Joh 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Tit 3:10 11 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Gal 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

1Jo 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5151216 -

:rofl2: Are you ready to take your scriptural advice and leave, seeing that we take no heed of your holy righteous admonishment? The PTL folks are in need of your "glad up to heaven" presence. :bye:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (01/07/06 04:20 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5151311 -

George Bush is not a Christian, read his statement on the death of Pope John Paul II.

President's Statement on the Death of Pope John Paul II

THE PRESIDENT: Laura and I join people across the Earth in mourning the passing of Pope John Paul II. The Catholic Church has lost its shepherd, the world has lost a champion of human freedom, and a good and faithful servant of God has been called home.

Note - "and a good and faithful servant of God has been called home."

He calls a man who has headed the largest antichristian church in the world a "good and faithful servant of God". Bush has denied core gospel doctrine by speaking peace to someone who teaches the false gospel of Roman Catholicism. This exposes where George Bush stands spiritually.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5151385 -

Quote:
George Bush is not a Christian



You have now said one thing I can agree with. Which surprises the Hell :hellfire: out of me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5151514 -

While someone confesses a false gospel, (such as salvation conditioned on the sinner), should be judged to be currently unregenerate and lost, this does not mean they will remain that way, as they might be granted repentance and belief of the truth.

So repentance is not an act of the individual? It is something that they have no choice in? To me, from you statement, this is what you are saying.

This a very curious use of the word repentance, used in this way it makes the verb, repent, transitory. With the repenter as the object. Very curious, I'm guessing very hard for most people to think this way, it is for me.

I'm guessing then from the point of repentance, that all your actions would be granted, not just repentance. This is what is confusing. You choose to word your arguments to defend the lack of volition in a way the person reading them would think that you do indeed have some control over your life.

Should we in reading what you say, every action you describe that is not qualified with the statement,

As has been granted to me

, assume that it has?

Is it safe to say then, if you would say,"I ran.", we should interpret it to mean "I have been run."?

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: falcon]
    #5151746 -

So repentance is not an act of the individual? It is something that they have no choice in? To me, from you statement, this is what you are saying....

Since fallen man is entirely inclined away from God and is in bondage to sin, and has no capability within himself to understand spiritual truth, every aspect of salvation is a unilateral action of God on the chosen vessel of mercy. We read only sinners are saved. But unregenerated man does not see himself as a sinner. And only those who are thirsting are given the water of life. Man is so dead that he is not thirsting, and he is not heavy laden with sin. It takes conviction by the Holy Spirit to bring a man into the truth of his own sinnership. Only after a man has been stripped of his own self-righteousness, can the truth of the righteousness of God be revealed by the gospel. Sinners do not bring "decisions", they do not bring anything at all, they are broken and know that they only deserve damnation. From this point the sole and only ground of righteousness is revealed, which is the righteousness of Christ alone, apart from any good deeds done by a sinner. So a man does repent and believe, but these things themselves are gifts, in fact the entire process of salvation is a free gift. This is true love, that a person deserving nothing but wrath, is given unconditional love. Faith, repentance, ect. are not conditions to be met. These things are gifts in order that God may reveal His love to His people, and they may know who He is, and His Son, and His Spirit.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5151760 -

By all means possible, avoid me, and please take your brethren with you.
As a matter of fact, it is precisely because of people like you that I hesitate to identify myself as a Christian to others, lest they assume that I believe as you do. Perhaps then 'Gnostic' will have to remain my appellation, since it immediately distinguishes my stance from those with your's. Remember this: It is not your appointed task to judge, but to love. The Bible is for personal guidance, not for condemnation of others. Christian?! No. 'Biblian' maybe.

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/07/06 11:38 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5152023 -

fivepointer said:
Since fallen man is entirely inclined away from God and is in bondage to sin, and has no capability within himself to understand spiritual truth, every aspect of salvation is a unilateral action of God on the chosen vessel of mercy.


This is what makes arguing with this type of Christian so futile. Rather than admit that there is even a remote possibility that you could be wrong, you place yourself in some higher echelon of existence. Your sole defense is that you are part of some special "club" who has had these divine mysteries made plain as day to them. It is time you realized that not everything you say is God speaking through you, but rather your ego. I may go so far as to recommend a healthy dose of psychedelics to treat this, but at this point it may take a miracle to bring you out of your hole.


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5152122 -

"from a valley in the rhineland
to the deserts of iran
from a village they called Jonestown
to a meeting of the clan
nobody knows where the strangers will go
and oh, oh, oh you know
they'll always be there
they'll always be there

and they comes when they're summonned
and they do what must be done
and they live for the movement
they take pride in being one
of the lucky and the chosen
and the perfect men
and the strangers
are with us again"


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5152195 -

I know for a fact that the only way to deal with closed minds and empty hearts is to ignore them. I find people who harbor hate for their fellow man so offensive that I find it hard to take my own advice. When I get over my anger at such behavior I can take pity on one who lives in such fear. Who feels so worthless within themselves that they must put themselves at the mercy of a vengeful, wrathful, god and condemn the innocent in his name so as to feel some small security. Still I feel it's important to confront them as they can, like a virus infect the innocent and unwary.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5152196 -

Every true convert does have the gospel revealed to them, they are translated from darkness and death, to light and life.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5152269 -

I agree, but I lose patience with lunatics.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5152285 -

Dear YHVH-1,
May the Stark Fist of Removal make its presence known to dis nutter in a most unfashionable manner.
Amen.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5153097 -

I am pretty sure that fivepointer is actually a computer program, a bot. Makes sense to me.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5153217 -

NRS Genesis 18:26 And the LORD said, "If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will forgive the whole place for their sake."

NRS Psalm 32:5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not hide my iniquity; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD," and you forgave the guilt of my sin.Selah

NRS Lamentations 3:42 We have transgressed and rebelled, and you have not forgiven.

NRS Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you;
NRS Matthew 6:15 but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

NRS Mark 1:4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

NRS Luke 5:32 I have come to call not the righteous but sinners to repentance."

NRS Luke 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

NRS Wisdom 19:13 The punishments did not come upon the sinners without prior signs in the violence of thunder, for they justly suffered because of their wicked acts; for they practiced a more bitter hatred of strangers.

NRS Ezekiel 18:20 The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own

NRS Ezekiel 33:12 And you, mortal, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not save them when they transgress; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, it shall not make them stumble when they turn from their wickedness; and the righteous shall not be able to live by their righteousness when they sin.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5153271 -

BlueCoyote, please elaborate on the verses you have posted.

BTW, the book of Wisdom is not part of the scriptures and should not be considered.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5153296 -

Let me try:

NRS Genesis 18:26 And the LORD said, "If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will forgive the whole place for their sake."
Shows, that the others will be forgiven too, no matter what they believe. -> non exclusive

NRS Psalm 32:5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not hide my iniquity; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD," and you forgave the guilt of my sin.Selah
Someone (not nescessary a christ) turned to g*d and he was forgiven.

NRS Lamentations 3:42 We have transgressed and rebelled, and you have not forgiven.
Those who do 'bad' will not been forgiven, whoever they are.

NRS Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you;
NRS Matthew 6:15 but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
That is a rule for everyone. -> not exclusive.

NRS Mark 1:4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
He came to tell you, that you CAN do something for forgiveness. BUT, you can not FORCE forgiveness ! (Contrary to Jewish believes)

NRS Luke 5:32 I have come to call not the righteous but sinners to repentance."
If the sinners would all predestined end in hell, he would have no need to come to them.

NRS Luke 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Only possible, if the person has the possibility to change.

NRS Ezekiel 18:20 The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own
Everyone is responsible for himself. No predestination from the genes or anything else. The only thing that counts is the 'sin'.

NRS Ezekiel 33:12 And you, mortal, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not save them when they transgress;
(...and further do the sin)

and as for the wickedness of the wicked, it shall not make them stumble when they turn from their wickedness;
(...as soon as they turn from it !)

and the righteous shall not be able to live by their righteousness when they sin.
Sin is the momentum that counts. Nothing else !

I think, people of all times, mix up predestination with forseeing. There is a difference !


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5153334 -

Let me try:

NRS Genesis 18:26 And the LORD said, "If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will forgive the whole place for their sake."
Shows, that the others will be forgiven too, no matter what they believe. -> non exclusive

"..And he said, I will not destroy it for ten?s sake. "
He could not find ten righteous in that city. The only reason why this world is not immediately destroyed is because He has an election of grace in this world that must be saved in time. Only the elect's sake holds back this destruction. Sodom was utterly demolished, men, women and children were rained on with brimstone and fire out of heaven. This verse does not teach others will be forgiven, no matter what they believe.

NRS Psalm 32:5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not hide my iniquity; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD," and you forgave the guilt of my sin.Selah
Someone (not nescessary a christ) turned to g*d and he was forgiven.

Only through Christ can anyone be forgiven. Every forgiven person WILL be converted and believe the gospel.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:
Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

NRS Lamentations 3:42 We have transgressed and rebelled, and you have not forgiven.
Those who do 'bad' will not been forgiven, whoever they are.

The problem is everyone is "bad".
Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

NRS Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you;
NRS Matthew 6:15 but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
That is a rule for everyone. -> not exclusive.

What you are saying is the good deed of forgiving others is considered in whether or not God will forgive a person. This is an impossible conclusion since salvation is not of works but solely of grace. A born again person does have a new spirit, and a tender heart, and this will be shown in dealings with others, but the new heart is a gift, not a reward.

NRS Mark 1:4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
He came to tell you, that you CAN do something for forgiveness. BUT, you can not FORCE forgiveness ! (Contrary to Jewish believes)

Again you have a works foundation for what merits justification. You are saying a person repents, and this act then merits grace and favor with God.

NRS Luke 5:32 I have come to call not the righteous but sinners to repentance."
If the sinners would all predestined end in hell, he would have no need to come to them.

Salvation is a process that happens in time, it always results in repentance and faith for those who are ordained to eternal life.
Ac 13:48...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

NRS Luke 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Only possible, if the person has the possibility to change.

The self-righteous Jews thought that they could get to heaven by keeping the law. But true gospel repentance is the realization that the best efforts of a sinner is sin, and only Christ's righteousness can save. It is a renouncement of self-righteousness. This repentance is what happens in conversion, and the angels rejoice when a person is converted.

NRS Ezekiel 18:20 The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own
Everyone is responsible for himself. No predestination from the genes or anything else. The only thing that counts is the 'sin'.

Predestination is prior to the creation, and prior to good or bad deeds.
Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

The Fall did impute the first transgression the the entire race, Adam was the representative, and all fell in him. Just as Christ is the representative and head of His people.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

NRS Ezekiel 33:12 And you, mortal, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not save them when they transgress;
(...and further do the sin)

This is another example of the self-righteous relying on their own righteousness. This is not Christ's righteousness, that is why it will not save them.

and as for the wickedness of the wicked, it shall not make them stumble when they turn from their wickedness;
(...as soon as they turn from it !)

A wicked person who realizes that he is wicked, and looks not to himself, but to Christ, will be delivered, this is true repentance.

and the righteous shall not be able to live by their righteousness when they sin.
Sin is the momentum that counts. Nothing else !

Again a re-statement. The self-righteous, being ignorant of God's righteousness, this self-righteousness is completely unprofitable for them.


I think, people of all times, mix up predestination with forseeing. There is a difference !

It is not a mere "knowing before". All things are ordered according to purpose, the ordering causes the things to happen.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Joh 1:12-3 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5153346 -

Sorry Sir,
our interpretations differ. I am convinced Jesus spoke to everyone, for everyone to make his way to salvation. Don't mix someone who reveals the truth and has to recognize Jesus as Christ, with someone who blindly believes Jesus Christ and does still does the sins, especially the sin of SEPARATION, which shows he believes in Christ, but has no understanding of him at all.

LOVE is the opposite of SEPARATION and LOVE is what Jesus preached in all his ways.

You don't need to know Jesus, nor do you need to know Christianity to know this.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5153571 -

AMEN. That was well said and describes my feelings exactly. Never in any other philosophical debate have I come across such one-sided absololutism. The style seems to search for responses exclusively external to the synthesizing thinking mind! The Fundamentalist response is completely robotic or parrot-like in its limited scope, with no ability to act Phenomenologically by isolating universal truths from archaic time and culture based irrelevancies. Engaging such a mind yields insight into its predictability, since one can also access the 'rule book' of the extremist's game. Such rank-and-file mentation is nothing other than tyranical with a Moloch-like GOD as the king tyrant. It would come as no surprise that a new crusade would arise from Fundamentalist minds in the US if it could - more genocidal nazi behavior in the Name of GOD like the Catholics against Jews, Cathars, mystics, Pagans, Muslims, and all who held different views.



Here is a beltbuckle designed for Hitler's elite murderers the SS (Sig Sig rune). It says "God is With Us," and it is a psychological device which helped to tap into the self-righteous religious zeal shared by the SS. As Reichfuhrer Heinrich Himmler said, "Adolf Hitler is my conscience." Hitler believed in a Pagan god, but used belief in the service of Power. The beltbuckle was worn at the Navel Center of Power, the same Center (Manipura: same Indo-European root as Manipu-lation) is the symbol in Hindu Tantra that contains three swastikas and the place where I believe Hitler took the symbol for his own. Racial cleansing is but a variation of genocide; pogroms and persecutions can be against other religions as well. I see no 'love shed abroad in the hearts' of the average Fundamentalist, but I do see obvious hypocrisy.

I do not mind being verbally condemned by such an individual because it demonstrates to others just exactly how the Fundamentalist mind works. Believe what 'I' say or be damned (because what 'I' say is the very Word of GOD, written BY GOD, and there is no higher authority). Indeed, in Truth, there IS no Higher Authority than the dictates of REALITY (i.e., GOD), but this is the important part: the one who thus preaches is the 'mouthpiece' of the LORD, and no matter how such a one protests about his humility in being 'chosen' to be such a 'mouthpiece,' the inner workings of his psyche is cherishing the belief that he is a prophet, a divinely ordained individual - AND YOU ARE NOT! This is the Messianic Complex that Ram Dass introduced me to in BE HERE NOW. His brother-in-law was hospitalized for claiming to be Christ (a common delusion) and when asked why he was locked up but Ram Dass could run around wearing dresses (Indian clothes), Ram Dass explained 'because I believe we are all Christ (in our Real Selves), but you believe it is ONLY you.' A prophet is a lesser claim than being Christ, but the Complex is at bottom. It is sufficiently integrated and so pervasive that it is deemed 'normal,' but then again, Klan beliefs were long deemed 'normal' in the Bible belt of the deep South which preserved the values that gave rise to a society of hate (cloaked in White Christian garb). What else can I say about haters who use Orwellian 'double-think' to say that they are loving?! What can one say about Fundamentalism - a medieval mind-set that cannot discern mythological and metaphorical language from literal language? Is it a lesion on the brain's Angular Gyrus? Is it a form of mass psychotic delusion? Whatever it is, it isn't pretty.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/08/06 11:30 AM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5153599 -

Well said, one strike for people who think their beliefs out instead of accepting a consensus at face value.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5154010 -

The gospel brings to nothing the great wisdom of men and all their great theories of sociology, psychology, and other so called "sciences", as well as all man made "religion".

1Cor 1:18-31
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?1 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

2Cor 10:4-5
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5154018 -

This is all regurgitation. How about delivering an original thought.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5154047 -

I love how people think they can determine which books count as an authoritative source on something and which do not. If all of these books are written by God, and man is fallible, then man should not determine which books count as scripture.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5154159 -

I seem to be getting more conscious, and I feel like I'm awakening from 'The Matrix' of unconscious assumptions! This blows my mind because such awakening is what I've been pursuing for 30+ years since my fist psychedelic sessions, but only relatively recently does this seem to be acquiring a degree of 'Realization' - being made real, actual (as in self-realization, self-actualization). The more I read, think about, compare with my personal history and with world history; the more I contemplate while in ordinary or non-ordinary reality, the more I Realize how much mythology has been a part of the edifice of my religious belief. Many 'bricks' have not been made with the same 'density' of psychic material. I do not have to 'demythologize' my beliefs, I have to 'deconstruct' the entire edifice and rebuild it with uniform material. I am no longer content to build my belief with materials just because the 'bricks' fit! All the material MUST be of uniform reality.

In other words, I cannot accept a Jesus story that is constructed of very questionable historical elements, and very obvious mythological elements that are then illuminated by very contrived intellectual 'light.' The historical Jesus (for example) must be dismissed as an object of faith for simple lack of evidence. All we are left with are writings which allege historical events but are rife with miraculous, supernatural events. Supernatural events in the Bible are midrashic illustrations of spiritual principles - dramatic linguistic illustrations. Midrash is closer to mythology than historicity. Paradoxically, Jesus remains my Lord and spiritual master!

In what seems like another lifetime, I remember reading the Hindu epics and knew from the get-go that these writings were mythological not historical in nature. Yet I 'got the point' from the stories and could understand how they related to my own life thousands of years after some of these stories were written. Hindus do not try to convince themselves that these stories are historical, because Hinduism is an 'acosmic' religion not a 'historical' religion. Yet, within historical religions, east and west, each has a mystical tradition and mysticism belongs to an 'acosmic' category - the object of one's spiritual aspiration does not lie in history and society but in domains that transcend these physical conditions. That is why People of the Book fight to the death over historical geography, and Hindus care very little about physical conditions. People fight over land, ownership, they do not fight over myth, even sacred myth. Ideology just becomes an excuse for baser interests.

Those individuals from historical religions who have been blessed with religious experiences of a mystical type, and who have their perspectives changed forever by the experience[s], are mystics. Mystics within Christianity, Judaism and Islam have more often than not been accused of heresy, apostasy, forced to recant or be put to death, sometimes horribly. Gnostics were slandered as cowards because they did not masochistically accept martyrdom and often recanted. They were not making a 'statement' for the 'record' (history) but would continue to live and be Gnostics (inwardly, where it matters). Many Shroomerites have had mystical experiences. Some Know it some do not. Those who Know it may be struggling, as I have, to translate those experiences into the construction of a personality based upon said experiences. Such a mystic personality will often be characterized by tolerance, by open-mindedness and yet, not in an 'anything goes' antinomian, libertarian (or worse, libertine) way, but as supported by Compassion as the basis for one's personal ethics and morality.

What am I saying? Over and against scholars like Heinrich Zimmer who denied that Mescaline experiences were true mystical experiences, and on the side of  Albert Hofmann,  Huston Smith, Richard Alpert, Timothy Leary, Terrence McKenna, Ken Wilber, Alex Grey and many others, there are budding mystics and gnostics whose 'blooms' of (lotus-like) enfoldment were initiated by the 'bloom-enhancing' psychedelics/entheogens. We too are being condemned by the those bitter souls who are unconscious 'bricks' of the religious establishment.

Sorry for the long post. I don't usually drink coffee this late in the day, and I basically used your response as a spring-board to rant about this stuff. It is exhilerating to feel like I am growing with the rapidity of an adolescent at my current age. (Maybe the new 50 IS the "new 30."  :grin:)

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/09/06 05:28 AM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5154499 -

:thumbup: I began my spiritual growth spurt at 50 and have found that the 50s are the time I am really finally able to make use of the many things I had been reading the previous 30 years. I cannot believe the level of growth and challenge that life has brought to me at this later part of life.

Just when I thought I was stuck forever and going nowhere. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5155701 -

Thanks for the reification!

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5155728 -

You're fifty??  I never knew!

See, that's why I like this forum.  It's where all the wise old guys chill at.  :wink: :tongue2: :heart:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5155732 -

He's almost 53, and just like a fine wine.  :wink:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5157746 -

I do not have to 'demythologize' my beliefs, I have to 'deconstruct' the entire edifice and rebuild it with uniform material. I am no longer content to build my belief with materials just because the 'bricks' fit! All the material MUST be of uniform reality.


What motivates you toward deconstructionism? As a philosophical movement it has largely played itself out, ending either in hard skepticism or materialistic atheism.

And why must every block be uniform? If you are building a monolithic wall, then perhaps this makes sense, but more beautiful and more complex structures require a multitude of distinctly different, yet interrelated, parts.

A Gothic cathedral comes to mind. Limestone, marbles, wood, colored glass...

Even the great pyramids required more than a single material.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5157831 -

Icelander said:
:thumbup: I began my spiritual growth spurt at 50 and have found that the 50s are the time I am really finally able to make use of the many things I had been reading the previous 30 years. I cannot believe the level of growth and challenge that life has brought to me at this later part of life. 


Same here, but I'm only 21. :wink:

I doubt I will make it to 50, but I wonder what such an age will have in store for me then.... :shocked:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5157855 -

shroomydan said:
And why must every block be uniform? If you are building a monolithic wall, then perhaps this makes sense, but more beautiful and more complex structures require a multitude of distinctly different, yet interrelated, parts.


Obviously, and yet all of these beautiful and more complex structures reduce down to the same basic components. :wink: It would seem that this is what he is alluding to.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5158222 -

I can only imagine the grandure. You will leave enlightenment far behind. You may just find the final answer and can wake up from the dream.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Veritas]
    #5158382 -

He's almost 53, and just like a fine wine.

Vinegary?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5158385 -

I had my greatest growth as an embryo. Oh, the things I learned!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Swami]
    #5158388 -

Fine wines get better with age, as you well know.  :grin:

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Veritas]
    #5158739 -

Veritas said:
He's almost 53, and just like a fine winer.  :wink:

:hissyfit:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
    #5158815 -

NO, no, I meant to say "wino"!!

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5159156 -

Ah, causing me to re-examine my metaphor are you? I was not referring to deconstructionism as a philosophical movement, but rather in the sense of my need to build a faith-stance in which there is a structural integrity. I realize that the best of our concrete superstructures (skyscrapers, bridges, etc.) have miniscule pockets of beer cans embedded within them, and it is hard to see how the structural integrity of those edifices are compromised. But, if there is too much filler in the Portland cement, a structure will not stand up to an Earth-shaking event, and the structure will collapse catestrophically. This happened to me once before when my Transcendental Meditation world view failed to support a major life crisis.

I must relegate my belief to the historical, and consider the supernatural/mythological events to be weak spots (if taken literally), or refuse to see the Bible as anything BUT mythological through and through. For years I believed that at least 'some' events took place historically, and I chose Biblical faith because I chose to believe that the mythological domain actually became manifest historically, whereas 'other' faiths remained in the domain of pure mythology. This was the same foolish prejudice that Fundamentalist Christians profess. I now see all of the religious stories as mythos, and feel liberated from that unconsciously rooted bigotry. I always asked myself "What does this really mean?" when I read Biblical stories, and never took them at face value anyway. I was not a Tertullian who based his belief on the irrational ("I believe because it is absurd"), I believed because it resonated with Experiences I had. Like 'doubting' Thomas I had to see to believe - a disciple that the Bible portrays as less 'faithful' because "You have seen and have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed." Yet, Paul himself did not believe until he was knocked on his ass on the road to Damascus, so the former portrayal was probably a later insertion. (One has to consider the obvious inconsistencies of Biblical theology to be due to later commentaries by other writers in the name of the original).

I will not regress to materialism (I can't imagine how that could happen since I believe in the efficacy of prayer and have witnessed even petitionary prayers of the most particular type granted!) Mythological does NOT mean unreal, it is quite Real. The 'I-Thou' relationship with GOD is Real. The words attributed to Jesus are about 'how it Really is' are spiritually accurate yet the stories themselve are clearly midrashic/mythic. Nativity scenes, virgin births, astronomical anomalies are repeated throughout antiquity at the birth of a divine hero. My life has been enriched by faith in Christ as the goal of human development, call Him Son of GOD or Son of Man if you like (it is not a unique title among the ancient Hebrews anyway). Faith in anything tangible is idolatry and faith in a myth is a "controlled folly" (as Casteneda would've called it), but my folly or my foolishness has yielded more Wisdom than I ever would've expected.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #23226776 -

Quote:
CUBErt said: Yes I know it's Old & a Good one Too.
The other day I was sitting with some friends downtown and we were approached by two young guys who stopped to ask us if we were 100% sure we would go to heaven if we died. I thought to myself "can anyone be 100% sure?" But I remained silent while they spoke with my other, blatantly anti-christian friends. Their whole deal was about accepting Jesus and asking us if we really had a concept of hell and if we really wanted to go there. When I began speaking, I explained that I had gone to Catholic school for 10 years and knew plenty about Christianity, but that I began to question the faith as I got older. (Now for the part that really bothered me) I started asking them about the legitimacy of other major religions like Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. I said that I considered myself Christian but that there are many other faiths that connect us all to the same God with many of the same basic moral standards. In reply they said that these religions were all missing Jesus Christ, the mid-point between us and God. So then I asked "what about people who live in isolation and never hear about Jesus? are they going to hell?" They said that the Bible says that everybody gets a chance to hear about God. I do not remember seeing that in the Bible but perhaps they were right. They used the Bible passage "I am the way, the truth, and the light. Nobody cometh unto the father except through me."

Anyways, since then I have just been feeling somewhat upset. My friend argued with them that Christianity is a bunch of paranoia, and I would consider myself a pretty paranoid person. I have been thinking alot:
-Wondering if I might be hell-bound
-Thinking of all the wonderful people on these boards and that I know in person who would be denied eternal bliss for believing something that is just as practical to them as Jesus Christ is to Christians.
-Coming to terms with the thought that I may have only remained Christian for so long for fear of hell.
-Wondering how a God of infinite wisdom could expect human beings all to jump on the same bandwagon when there are so many untrustworthy people around, especially in religion.

I was just wondering how other people felt about this issue, and hoping to gain some insight from those who are more well-read on spirituality then myself.

  My openion the whole Deal is........ My Dad is  not too Christian like, but he is illiterate & quit school in the third grade. So I feel highly that I not only talk to God & Jesus throughout the day, but they communicate back with me on an equal level. My Dad & Mother both are about equal on this accept my Mom is not illiterate, so She will have to work a little harder at it, and I will try to help them. My Dad is kinda hard-headed, so I only get a little in here and a little in there. It is kinda hard sometimes. I have told my Brethern that He needed to come home with me or He was going to Hell one time in Speaking in Tongues Well & that Our Mom & Dad were REAL & Jesus Loved them too. But he did not come with me. I ran out of the house screaming there is something Evil in the house & I had to go home. (They were smoking JO (Synthetic marijuana)I also pointed at their package & called it out Specifically. I ran home & then kind was freaked out a bit, but was good a bit later. "speaking in Tongues"(I concider tongues as this "When Jesus takes control over your movements & words, and yes you have no control whatsoever.) It's happened to me about five times before. Well sorry for rambling so much it's just that reading this old thread has gotten me all excited I guess. What I am getting at is basically My Mom & Dad live well & help others all the time constantly, but they still should ask for forgiveness at least one time. I know most people wouldn't agree with this concept of them Going to Heaven so easily, but who really knows? Yes this Thread & this Post is kind of alott of reading to some people so... but I am convinced it is True because I have been told. You know a multitude of sin can be hidden by good deeds & Love  & GOD Basically. So I guess I am disagreeing with the old Martin Luther's(Original one) concept on Rebirth & being Born Again. I have also recently found out that I am pretty Ps chic Myself. I found this out by playing with an old deck of cards & went by the concept that I was Reborn again in Spirit, but still the same person somehow Miraculously. It is great & I Love them with all my heart. I don't claim the ownership of anything even though I have Plenty. I love Everyone with all my heart & help everyone & welcome them with with Open arms! I Believe in Jesus Christ & worship God & am best friends with Both. But I Perceive a bigger picture than most Christians that just leave it to Just what the Bible says(I am Heavily Intrigued by the Bible & think it is Miraculous itself & yes it is a Powerful Book. Even though some of it might be bent or changed up a little. Also some taken out & left out also possibly.) It would be too much for the Average Christian to know Everything Or Even almost Everything, but some people can handle it & they know it. It takes a Strong Individual & they are out there by the numbers. Just sometimes they fall Offtrack or Unbalanced  & Need a little Help. You Do have to Be Accepted & have to continue to do good. I you don't continue, then Yes You Have TO Start over. Be careful who knows how many chances you will get, and yes some people might get more chances than others. Peace & Love

Edited by majicman30 (05/14/16 05:08 PM)

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt] * 1
    #23231128 -

The often-quoted John 14:6 refers not to the particularities of a 1st century Judean carpenter, but to the Logos to which Jesus was ostensibly referring in that passage. Nobody comes to God unless they have identified themselves through agapé, the Christian accepted form of love. That being said, it is not about a man - fictional or historical - which is salvific. Your evangelizers were conveyors of a very shallow and mythic-level of understanding. Undoubtedly they knew nothing about the author who was eventually named John, and the philosophical work on the Logos that John took from the Hellenistic Jewish Platonist Philo of Alexandria.

Although the Prologue (pro-logos) of John refers to the Logos in English as "Word," word is but one meaning of Logos, and by word, it is not the written or spoken word to which John refers. In Greek, the Logos is the manifest aspect of God which one realizes when one's consciousness is "in Christ," in or identified with the Logos. This is a universal level of consciousness, The Witness, or what occultists began to call Christ Consciousness or "Cosmic Consciousness" (after the book written by R.M. Bucke in 1900). "The Word was with God, and the Word was God," says John 1:1, but unlike God the Father which is utterly transcendental and unmanifested, the Logos is an emanation or a prolation in theology of God manifested - the "only begotten Son," which is an anthropomorphic expression of the Godhead's manifestation as Being. If this Logos is an Eternal Reality then you were correct to intuit that it is what is sought in every world religion. Indeed, it can be found conceptually everywhere, including Pagan Neoplatonism as Nous.

I have been studying this issue for over 40 years now. I am 38 years graduated from a reputable Christian seminary, and I can say confidently that the Logos is not identical with a man, let alone a 1st century man (even if he did exist historically), and that an intellectual 'belief' does not have any gravitas over a life lived with compassion, humility, and tolerance (respect) for other's lives. Christian imperialism that denies the validity of other religious traditions is a matter of bigotry so stupid that it has long condemned the very religion (Judaism) that Jesus belonged to and practiced himself! If you are Hell-bound it is because you must be some heinous sub-human torture-serial killer, child molester, defrauder of elderly people, genocidal dictator, or a similarly demonic being IMO. Otherwise, lighten up and decide to work on the sanctification of your life. :yesnod: :cheers:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23231170 -

That sounds very possible, but do you believe in Holy Spirit or that this Logos spoken of has an actual spirit or not? Good information to absorb.  Peace


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[/url][url=http://files.shroomery.org/files/16-12/893004217-IMG_4581.

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: majicman30]
    #23231235 -

[Firstly, I can't believe that I just responde to a 10 year old resurrected post. D'OH! :foreheadslap:]

I don't "believe" anything. Beliefs are merely intellectual formulations. I have faith and beyond that I have gnosis. Christian trinitarian thought was first elaborated by Augustine of Hippo who had been a Neoplatonist for many years until his mom convinced him to become a Christian. Despite Christianity's theological denial that the Plotinian Neoplatonic 'World-Soul' is not identical with the Holy Spirit, it doesn't make any difference at all. Theology is the attempt of human beings to satisfy an intellectual curiosity which can never be satisfied by intellectual and rational explanations. What happens is that a formula is made dogma, a statement that is not supposed to be questioned or analyzed but rather 'believed,' which is really just an emotional response of surrender put in place of an adequate intellectual understanding. To say that God is "one substance in three persons" is a dogma. No human being can know, let alone articulate in language, what the essence of the Godhead is. Only God knows God's essence if anything.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: majicman30]
    #23232659 -

Thanks for your time again. I have just been doing a lot of thinking lately, but I see Truth in almost all that you have written. I also feel that things of this nature should not be questioned. Thank you again for the input. So let's let this old one fade back to the time again. Peace & Love


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[/url][url=http://files.shroomery.org/files/16-12/893004217-IMG_4581.

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