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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #5122147 - 12/30/05 01:31 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Really ? I have to look that up. That sounds crazy :smile: What did he do there ? Made some treaty about Christians with the devil ?

I remember the Lake of Fire seen as 'second death' and always wondered why.

Does anyone has any bible-pointers at hand where Jesus went to hell ?

edit: I vagely remember some text in the apocryphes that said Jesus went underearth at Golgotha to meet Adam, yes. But why the heck he was/is in hell ? Wow, that does let me look on things a bit differently, but I have to contemplate, if that was written ...


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (12/30/05 01:39 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
    #5122167 - 12/30/05 01:33 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Yes, but I believe the Old Testament prophets were in Jewish Hell, otherwise called 'Sheol,' which seemed more like the shadowy underworld of Greek Hades than a "lake of fire." The ideas of afterlife were mentioned by apocalyptic writers like the author of 'Daniel' (being resurrected to 'eternal righteousness' or 'eternal contempt,' i.e., heaven or hell), but Jewish theology was about survival of the 'tribes' of Israel, not 'individual eternal life' (which is oxymoronic, not paradoxical, but better than saying 'immortality' which is not a Biblical concept).

We shouldn't be too hard on the ancients. In the first place, just like today's Fundamentalists, they could not differentiate between the mythic and the physical. The world was flat, the heavens were domed and Hell (in other traditions including the Norse cosmology from which we get the word 'Hel') was beneath the Earth. Sulphur does indeed issue forth from volcanic regions (volcanic from Vulcanic - the Roman equivalent of Hephaistus, the Greek god who forged Zeus' thunderbolts from divine fire). Ancients also used allegory and symbolism, and imagination. The spiritual body which would undergo the pains of Hell would not reside in a physical lake of fire - that's two different categories of existence. It would have to be a spiritual lake of fire, so the implication is one of eternal burning agony which is admittedly, a horrifying thought, and equally admittedly an intended agenda. After all, if the choice is eternal reward or eternal punishment, one can see the basic psychology by which we train children and pets and is now called classical conditioning. The Biblical writers were brilliant, make no mistake about it, and projected this common sense psychology onto G-D, who became a Father-God like Zeus and others.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5122199 - 12/30/05 01:41 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Ah markos, you always post 2 mins after or before me so I did not get your answers :lol:
Thank you for the nice analogies. I like the bolts of fire from Vulcan. Reminds me of the dwarfs forging some mithril :smile:

/starts his bible-programm to find the parts about Jesus in hell.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (12/30/05 02:03 PM)


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Offlinelysergicide
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5122544 - 12/30/05 03:03 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

heh, growing up, i was *EXTREMELY* worried about going to hell.. i dont know what for either. but it scared the shit out of me... for like 3 or 4 years. eventually the entire religion of christianity scared the shit out of me... you know, until i got older and wiser. it's a nice religion, but i think the bible is not god's ultimate word. damning anybody who doesnt accept him & the lord as their saviour and all homosexuals will be banished to hell too? sounds a bit like ancient intolerance to me. i mean, why would god send his beloved creatures to a place of eternal restlessness and pain for a few misunderstandings or misdirections?

as a religion, they need to work on a few things... acceptance. they need to accept people for who they are because rejectin them and/or banishing them isn't going to do any good. they need to stop promoting their religion through mail, through ads... if people want to find god, they can go find him. it's not hard.

i think they need stricter clergy. "resist temptation" if you know what i mean.

but. then again... who am i to tell them what they need to do?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: lysergicide]
    #5122580 - 12/30/05 03:16 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

I did not find much in the official NT and OT:

KJV 2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Peter:
KJV Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

KJV Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


hmmm....


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineCUBErt
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5122853 - 12/30/05 04:30 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
People who have never heard the gospel in remote areas of the world and die unconverted, will be righteously judged on the last day and be cast into the Lake of Fire. Every one for whom Christ died will hear the gospel in time, and be converted no exceptions. God is sovereign in His actions and has predestinated who will inherit salvation, and who will be damned. Those who hold to Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. will not be saved if they continue in that belief until they die.




-"Everyone for whom Christ died will hear the Gospel in time"
But Christians will tell you that Christ died for everyone's sins, which would mean that every person that ever lived would hear the Gospel at some point in their life. This is certainly not the case."
I think that your statements are absurd.

And the idea of "predestination" is complete bullshit, created by Puritans in order to keep people subservient through fear. I have been shown the parts of the Bible that supposedly speak of that, which I take to mean as: the All-Knowing God knows where we will go based on our own decisions ("free will," anyone?). He does not sit up in Heaven, sorting people into a "Hell pile" and "Heaven Pile" when he creates them.

Thank you to everyone who has shed some more light on this issue.


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5123138 - 12/30/05 05:28 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

I used to have a pretty bad fear of hell. I removed it by just thinking about things. Hell just doesn't make sense. Like, if all non-Christians go to hell, then that's not very fair for the people in isolated tribes and countries who have never even heard of it, is it? I mean, if nobody tells them about it, then they'd never hear about it, so they'd go to hell. That doesn't sound like a compassionate or loving GOD to me. (then again, the god in the bible has a multiple personality and loves to cow HIS humans into submission...I wonder why. Oh wait, I know, it was written by HUMAN BEINGS.) It also doesn't make sense that a select group of humans would know about hell, but nobody else. Why would they know. What makes them special. Then I looked, and I realized that Christians aren't special. They're just people who eat, shit and piss just like everyone else on this big blue ball hurtling through space. They're just as clueless as every human being ever born and will probably die just as clueless. it's CRAZY to imagine they're "special" and won't go to hell because they believe a certain thing. The possiblities are so endless as to what you can believe and "create" for yourself, and they feel comfortable putting people on such a narrow path, and I just can't grasp that. One way of doing things? One way of believing? Their "god" only has one face, and it's the face they've created for it (white male in the sky). And if you don't believe in this GOD and accept him IN A CERTAIN WAY then they say you'll burn in hell.

WHAT??! Do they forget how diverse the world is? How many different paths there are through so many different places? How many different perspectives and situations and challenges and opportunities? With the vast spectrum of minds on our planet, they feel there is only ONE WAY of doing things and they can't even decide amongst themselves what that ONE WAY really is. Think about it. They're just people trying to figure it out like everyone else.

So once I realized that we're all just people and that none of us know shit, the fear of hell went away.

Just the way I look at things. Hell just doesn't make sense to my mind anymore. If GOD is everything, everywhere, seen and unseen, the beginning and the end, if GOD is LOVE...then there is no place for Hell in God.


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OfflineCUBErt
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5123267 - 12/30/05 05:50 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Well said :smile:


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:


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Offlinelysergicide
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5123287 - 12/30/05 05:52 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

But you never know... Life is full of surprises. Thats all I have to say :smile:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5123314 - 12/30/05 05:58 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Well, if you go to Hell so will I. I expect there will be great company among the thinkers and philosophers there. See You in Hell!!! :smile:


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
    #5123384 - 12/30/05 06:12 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Did you ever see an old science fiction film called 'The Omega Man' with (of course) Charleston Heston as the hero? The world of people get turned into daylight-shunning, black-cloaked, white-pupilled zombies (for lack of a better word) because of a man-made plague. Heston alone is immune. The leader of the zombie people (named Malachai I believe, after the OT prophet) insists that his people return to a pre-technological 'dark age' because machines were responsible (in the hands of men) for destroying the world.

That late 60s film was a terrific metaphor for Fundamentalist religious people of every faith. Muslims in the 21st century still amputate ears, hands, feet, etc. according to medieval laws with swords. Fundamentalist Christians also insist upon a medieval mind-set which denies the very existence of prehistoric Earth ("Fossils were created to test the faithful" was something I actually heard someone say in seminary!) There is non-rational, there is trans-rational and there is irrational. Emotions are non-rational, intuition and transcendental vision is trans-rational and believing that the Sun MUST be smaller than the Earth because the Sun is a star, and Revelations says that the stars will fall to Earth is irrational. Anyone who insists upon a medieval mind-set, based upon a 3-tiered cosmos and a flat Earth; a cosmos that confuses the mythical with the material, is clearly mad - delusional - in complete error. The metaphysical assertions of Fundamentalists are just as confused with the physical, and moreover, just under the surface of the so-called Christian who quotes scriptures about G-D's love but who utterly condemns everyone - even Christians with a different theology - to eternal torment - is himself an extremely hate filled, unfulfilled individual who worships a god made in his own image.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5123406 - 12/30/05 06:17 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

I often find your interpretations of Christianity to be quite intellectually palatable. I have been surrounded by fundamentalists too long.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5123443 - 12/30/05 06:25 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I often find your interpretations of Christianity to be quite intellectually palatable.




As do I, but they are still only interpretations.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
    #5123543 - 12/30/05 06:43 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Many posters have asserted that salvation can happen without belief of the gospel. There is no scripture that will support this notion, but a great many scriptures clearly state that no one is saved apart from conversion and faith.

I want to clarify something, conversion and faith are NOT causes of salvation, they are evidences of salvation. The cause of salvation is the work of Jesus Christ to justify His people, all those who where given to Him by the Father from before the foundation of the world, He gives every spiritual blessing to them, washes them in His own blood, and presents them without blemish in love. Grace is not based on what a person does, it is despite what a person does. Those who would condition salvation on what someone does are not justified by grace, they are seeking justification through the works of the law, and no flesh is ever justified by works of the law. They are attempting to establish righteousness outside of Jesus Christ, and are ignorant of God's righteousness. This is not a minor detail, this is the foundation of most false gospels that rear their ugly heads in Christendom.

Sin is a breakage of the law, sin can only break a person, expose wickedness, and expose the true nature of a fallen man. All those who are thirsting for righteousness, heavy burdened with sin, who are shown that they are wretched, broke and broken, (the Spirit convicts His people of sin, righteousness and judgement), will be delivered, and drink of the everlasting fountain, and be called to eat without money or price. Salvation is by glorious free grace to completely hell deserving sinners.


Edited by fivepointer (12/30/05 06:44 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5123568 - 12/30/05 06:48 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Scripture don't mean shit if it is concerned with an afterlife which cannot be confirmed.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5123625 - 12/30/05 06:59 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Scripture don't mean shit if it is concerned with an afterlife which cannot be confirmed.




if all the things scripture dealt with could be confirmed outside of personal experience there would be no need for scripture.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Deviate]
    #5123637 - 12/30/05 07:02 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Yes, but for someone who thinks organized religion is invalid all scripture is bullshit. Heaven and Hell, Jesus and God, ...fairy tales to assuage the fear of death and make people feel snug and secure in their illusion of immortality.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5123653 - 12/30/05 07:05 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

oh your post was in response to fivepointer.


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Offlinelysergicide
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5123658 - 12/30/05 07:06 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Scripture don't mean shit if it is concerned with an afterlife which cannot be confirmed.




Absolutely true. Scripture now is just about as good as ancient scripture, the only difference is one is older and more valuable ($$$). :smile:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: lysergicide]
    #5123667 - 12/30/05 07:07 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

I write my own personal scripture every day in the actions of my life.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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