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Anonymous

One Nation under God?
    #1492529 - 04/25/03 11:29 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Here is an interesting issue. America has been considered to be "one nation under God". Some have said that atheists should not even be citizens.

What are your thoughts on this?

Remember, we are considering the philosophical and religious aspects of this issue, not the political ones. Any purely political commentary on a politician or otherwise might be deleted.

Click here for what our President has said.

Cheers,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: ]
    #1492614 - 04/25/03 11:57 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

USA is not under God, under Lucifer is more accurate, IMO.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlinepattern
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: ]
    #1492669 - 04/25/03 12:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

That was George Bush Senior, for the record.

Considering that atheists make up a large portion of the American population, then America cannot be accurately labelled "one nation under God".


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: pattern]
    #1492933 - 04/25/03 01:32 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

bush jr. being the most religious president ever is almost certainly going to bring about a jihad with all this anti "terrorism" nonsence.

Let's invade arabia, use the UN to get countries around the world (like thailand) to slaughter their drug users and sellers, and imprison more or our own people than any other country in the world (agianst the wishes of our own forefathers) all in the name of God.

How long is Ali Baba going to sit by and get raped? 91101
How long is Joe America going to sit in jail for smoking a reefer?
How long is communist china going to let Bush set up "democracies" all over the world?
How long is Europe/canada/south america/arabia/asia going to let the US foreign policy interfere in their sovereignty?

One nation under God? Bull shit. that country is so divided inside...
The Old Boys Club runs the US. Bush didnt win the popular vote.

Usurping control of the worlds greatest military machine the world has ever seen, Bush will pray until the day it all gets blow away because we must pay for the freedom to stay and all the recalcitrant citizens will be forced to sit in jail and wait, or flee away.


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: ]
    #1493012 - 04/25/03 01:56 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Obviously the man is a very shallow thinker. It's not a very Christian attitude he exhibited, but then calling yourself a Christian and actually BEING one are two different things. I know a few athiests/agnostics who are more Christian in their treatment of their fellow man than most bible thumpers I've encountered.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (04/25/03 01:57 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: ]
    #1493255 - 04/25/03 03:03 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Sorry, but I don't see how this topic can possibly avoid turning into a political one, since the question of who can become a citizen (and even how the word "citizen" is defined) is strictly political.

You may argue (correctly) that politics is a subset of philosophy, but in that case you would have to allow a lot more political threads in here.

You may want to think about moving this to Politics, Activism and Law.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: Phred]
    #1493399 - 04/25/03 03:39 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

You may want to think about moving this to Politics, Activism and Law.



Oh no he won't!!! There's already a thread about this over there. Let's just keep this philosophical, shall we?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: ]
    #1493441 - 04/25/03 03:47 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

well... the "one nation under god" phrase come from the pledge of allegience, which was taken from a late 19th/early 20th century newspaper editorial; and the "under god" part was added later...
as to the founding fathers of the usa, well... some of the most influential thinkers (e.g. thomas paine, ben franklin) were either atheists or right on the edge thereof; many more were freethinkers, unitarians, deists, etc --- most definitely not christian (tom jefferson, maybe george washington...)
others were surely christians (the first president, under the articles of confederation, was a lutheran...) & some were even members of the clergy...
but, in today's america, there are for sure quite a few atheists, and agnostics (james watson, discoverer of DNA structure, & quite a few other scientists of various stripes), and plenty more who have some vague feelings about god & judgement & such, but probably would not be considered to be christians... and the "other" monotheistic traditions of judaism & islam; and there are plenty americans who are not monotheists (hindus, some native americans, wiccans, etc....) and some who could be considered religious without being theistic at all (buddhists) and a whole slew of folks i suppose you could catalog as "miscellaneous" (ignoring deliberately "fringe" churches & groups such as: church of all worlds, church of the subgenius, church of satan, OTO, and i dunno how many others, eh?)
~
& folks, it's sorta scary, but georgeB senior should probably be considered a good deal brighter that his son dubya...
~
~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: ]
    #1493467 - 04/25/03 03:51 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The issue I have is with the leaders of any organisation using their own motives instead of the people they represent. It used to be (I believe) that a majority of colonist were religious and therefor "one nation under God" was an inference that the nation should be lead in a manner consistant to the beliefs of the people. This is not the case anymore. Our population has changed and the gov't has changed as well. Unfortunately these changes have occured in opposite directions and have opened a large gap between the wants of the people and the actions of the nation.

Sincerely,
Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


Edited by Joshua (04/25/03 11:24 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: ]
    #1493525 - 04/25/03 04:06 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

If it is un-American to think and ask questions, as John Ashcroft seems to believe, then it would naturally follow that it is un-American to be an atheist. However, if America is about diversity and freedom, then atheists are as American as anyone else.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1493590 - 04/25/03 04:28 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

one nation under god-

no athiests should be allowed to stay in the US, because it doesnt matter whether they believe in GOD or not, if god exists, and america is one nation under god, then it doesnt matter if a few people dont beleive, they will still be under god's rule.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: ]
    #1493729 - 04/25/03 05:22 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Well im just going to come out and say there is no god. lol....Religion is just a waiste of time IMO, but may be a thing others need.  Bad Religion has some very good songs you should listen too.  One really good one is American Jesus, at the end it chants One nation under god a few times :smile: Sarcasticly kinda way though. 


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: ]
    #1493793 - 04/25/03 05:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

This is an interesting issue with no easy answer. I have always felt that the term 'God' can apply to any faith that has a deity figure at its helm. God can be Satan for a Satanist, or Jesus for a Christian, or Allah for a Muslim, etc. Problems arise when one is an atheist or believes in multiple deity figures.

After a lot of teeth nashing, I came up with the following: The government has a duty to protect the People's freedom to practice whatever faith they wish (as long as the faith doesn't step on somebody else's rights... such as human sacrifice), and to protect the People's freedom to not practice any faith. As such, the government should not advocate the use of terms which would bias its protection in one direction or another.

With this in mind, it is fine to have a bible study class that meets after school just like the football teams or marching band. It is also fine to have an athiest club that meets after school as well. It is not ok to require children to say prayers before lunch, or proclaim their faith to a nation under God, or to carry money that reminds them to trust in God.

The zealots out there (Ashcroft) would like to criminalize anything that does not agree with their personal faith. This is wrong. If the tables were turned and they had money that said in Satan we trust or one nation under Satan those same people would swallow their tongues. Duality requires there to be choices... to legislate those choices goes against the nature of our reality which will ultimately cause problems... such as the war on drugs, the war on Islam, the war against Christians, the war ...

Peace


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: Seuss]
    #1493841 - 04/25/03 05:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

wow....there is no god. and...how did you discover this "truth"?

listen to bad religion.....bad religion is just a bunch of punks...regular guys, they dont know anything more than you or me.

god exists, obviously. god meaning the universe.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: Joshua]
    #1494136 - 04/25/03 08:31 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

but it seems you are acting as a dictator not a moderator.
I feel this topic encompasses both religious and political issues, that is why I decided to post it in the political forum. Its interesting to get opinions on both forums which has for the most part, different members visiting it. Please, the last thing we need is to dig up old grudges between memebers!


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: ]
    #1494142 - 04/25/03 08:39 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I believe the word "God" or any mention of prayer, god, religion should be kept completely out of anything the government does or says.

No school prayer, no 'in god we trust', etc...

Absolute seperation of church and state.

Bush is a perfect example of how NOT to be a leader, considering he promotes his religious beliefs on every occasion.

He is supposed to represent the people, and thats why he should keep his religion completely to himself and never utter a word while in office.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1494154 - 04/25/03 08:50 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

if god exists, and america is one nation under god, then it doesnt matter if a few people dont beleive, they will still be under god's rule.




Good point!


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: One Nation under God? [Re: Seuss]
    #1494158 - 04/25/03 08:52 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

This is an interesting issue with no easy answer.  I have always felt that the term 'God' can apply to any faith that has a deity figure at its helm.  God can be Satan for a Satanist, or Jesus for a Christian, or Allah for a Muslim, etc.  Problems arise when one is an atheist or believes in multiple deity figures.

After a lot of teeth nashing, I came up with the following:  The government has a duty to protect the People's freedom to practice whatever faith they wish (as long as the faith doesn't step on somebody else's rights... such as human sacrifice), and to protect the People's freedom to not practice any faith.  As such, the government should not advocate the use of terms which would bias its protection in one direction or another.

With this in mind, it is fine to have a bible study class that meets after school just like the football teams or marching band.  It is also fine to have an athiest club that meets after school as well.  It is not ok to require children to say prayers before lunch, or proclaim their faith to a nation under God, or to carry money that reminds them to trust in God.

The zealots out there (Ashcroft) would like to criminalize anything that does not agree with their personal faith.  This is wrong.  If the tables were turned and they had money that said in Satan we trust or one nation under Satan those same people would swallow their tongues.  Duality requires there to be choices... to legislate those choices goes against the nature of our reality which will ultimately cause problems... such as the war on drugs, the war on Islam, the war against Christians, the war ...

Peace 




Very well put  :grin:


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Anonymous

Re: One Nation under God? [Re: Joshua]
    #1494323 - 04/25/03 10:20 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

You seem to misunderstand the difference between deleting posts and deleting threads.  I am surprised given your intelligence that you could miss it.  The idea here is to discuss the philosophical and spiritual aspects of this issue without posts like:

FUCK THE SCRUB!!!  :mad:

Any posts that are that political and add nothing to the other aspects of this discussion will be deleted because they add nothing to it.  If someone wishes to curse our President there is another forum to do it in.

Not here.

Dig me?

There are two threads.  If anyone wishes to discuss the purely political aspects of this issue they may do so in the other forum.  Nothing could be fairer than that.

So far I see absolutely nothing amiss other than perhaps your posts questioning a moderator's actions.  We don't allow those in here either, Joshua.  There is a website suggestion forum for that.

Cheers, 


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Anonymous

Re: One Nation under God? [Re: Joshua]
    #1494328 - 04/25/03 10:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Oh and I suggest you read the "Be Nice" policy which suggests that arguments are to made to the point and not directed at the person.

Your post should be deleted for that alone but I'll let it ride.


This time.


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