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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleClean
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Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence * 1
    #7448985 - 09/24/07 07:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Whatever you want to call it...
"God-given" "natural" "civil" "human" "unalienable"...

I used to be hypnotized by this idea that we all have "rights" ordained to us by creation. This belief is what most protesters are invoking when they fill the streets and shout their slogans. I know because I used to join in such behavior.
But when you see these perceived "rights" constantly ignored by governments and war makers, by people who are allegedly supposed to "represent" you and "uphold the rights" of everyone, it's a source of major discouragement and confusion.

If our ideas of "rights" are valid, then every single creature that engages in predatory action is a criminal and should be tried by a proper court established to uphold these "rights".
In response to the last sentence, one could say "...well that's ridiculous to apply human standards to mere animals."
So then, if ethereal "rights" do in fact exist, why are they only applicable to humans? Sounds like fundamentalist religious dogma to me.

I've come to a realization that "rights" as we love to think of them DON'T EXIST. At all.
What we do have is a complex social system in which beings can agree, in the interest of everyone in your local group, to get along.... or not.

Furthermore, can you see how the concept of "rights" is actually being used against us?

If there are "rights" then there needs to be a "court" to uphold them. There you have a recipe for an instant hierarchy. Just add water...(or blood, in this case)

I look at society and see that we have a group which sees itself as superior to all other life on the planet, and has taken upon itself the task of actively dominating and controlling the affairs of all life on the planet. Obviously, they have no "right" to do so, just as we have no "right" to live free of such a group's influence, just as a fish has no "right" to not be plucked out of the water by a bear, and so on..

The concept of "rights" has taken root in place of the idea that we can all manage to live our lives without murdering and subjugating each other for the benefit of a particular group.
I would argue that this idol we call "rights" is a psycho-semantic tool by which we abdicate personal responsibility for how we conduct our lives on a personal and a global scale.


There is a natural "order" we can agree to live in harmony with, or not. This has nothing to do with any idea of "rights" bestowed upon us by some mysterious ethereal force of justice.
We are that force.
It is up to us.


Edited by Clean (09/24/07 09:42 PM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Clean]
    #7449049 - 09/24/07 08:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yup :thumbup:

:laugh:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineAnarchoTrip
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Clean]
    #7449057 - 09/24/07 08:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Don't you think that every human being and animal should have the right to live a peaceful and joyful life?


--------------------
YIPPIE!


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: AnarchoTrip]
    #7449072 - 09/24/07 08:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think that creatures can agree (or not) to live their lives however they see fit, independent of any mystical "right".


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OfflineAnarchoTrip
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Clean]
    #7449076 - 09/24/07 08:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

okay. point understood.


--------------------
YIPPIE!


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: AnarchoTrip]
    #7449162 - 09/24/07 08:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I would say we have no rights, and in the same realm there is no such thing as 'right and wrong', 'good or evil' etc. It's all just up for interpretation. What one person says is good, someone else may view as bad, so on and so forth.

We all merely exist, and nothing more, any concepts or ideas we create ourselves.


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InvisibleMastamike1118
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: AnarchoTrip]
    #7449178 - 09/24/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i used to think that the rights we naturally have were dependent on the will of the government and so on... like we dont already have them and we forget so we continue to feel imprisoned  by other peoples mindless games...  i realized i am already free and i feel so happy not to find myself trapped by others ideas of how my life should be...:bongload:


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OfflineLion
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: AnarchoTrip]
    #7449295 - 09/24/07 09:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

AnarchoTrip said:
Don't you think that every human being and animal should have the right to live a peaceful and joyful life?


Going back to Clean's example: How can a bear have a peaceful and joyful life unless it takes away the rights of thousands of fish to their peaceful enjoyment of life?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #7449414 - 09/24/07 09:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mastamike1118 said:
i used to think that the rights we naturally have were dependent on the will of the government and so on... like we dont already have them and we forget so we continue to feel imprisoned  by other peoples mindless games...  i realized i am already free and i feel so happy not to find myself trapped by others ideas of how my life should be...:bongload:




Exactly. They want you to believe that your "rights" would be severely jeopardized were they not there with their sacred pieces of paper, which none of us or our relatives have ever signed, claiming to ordain them sole protectors and keepers of said "rights" for everyone.

(obviously this is coming from an american perspective, but the rhetoric of most modern western, "secular" governments is the same...)

You can be as free in your mind as you want.  But a mind can barely approach freedom if it does not first realize the extent of it's lack of freedom.

There's people (collectively referred to as "Government") who think that you are beholden to their authority simply because of where you were born, and the fact that your mother and her doctor signed you off on an "official" piece of paper the day that your life began.
You are expected to pay allegiance to them, and when you become old enough you are expected to allow them to take a portion of your earnings, enforceable by physical punishment if you refuse. 

They will tell you that their authority to do this is based on your approval, so the act of taxation is not considered robbery, because it is "legal", even though the pure act of robbery and taxation are the same.

They will give you the option of choosing between members of their ranks to lead the organization by which these deeds are accomplished. (Politicians are not "just regular folks" who "decided to run" for whatever position.)

  They will tell you it is your organization, and that they are purely your agents (ordained by you), carrying out the necessary tasks to ensure your continued survival in relative comfort.  At the same time, they will tell you that if you even peacefully refuse their services, and refuse to comply by their rules, even if you are not hurting or endangering any other individual, you will be subject to severe punishment both financial and physical. 
But it's your system, remember. 

They will also attempt to scare you with astronomical numbers representing the amount that you collectively "owe" to the creditors financing your system.

They will tell you this is as free as it gets, and that you should be proud to be so free.


Edited by Clean (09/24/07 09:43 PM)


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Lion]
    #7449435 - 09/24/07 09:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

for all i know getting ripped out of my reality and eaten by a bear is an ecstatic experience on par with enlightenment (for a fish).


Edited by Clean (09/24/07 09:44 PM)


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Offlinecellardoor
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Lion]
    #7449456 - 09/24/07 09:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i agree with krypto. "good" and "evil" are defined differently for each individual, so "rights" that apply to a larger group would have to be agreed upon by that group, isn't that like morals? what we ought to do/not do etc...is that even possible?

we are totally discussing this topic in my political philosophy class.


--------------------
"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."~William Blake



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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Clean]
    #7450322 - 09/25/07 02:06 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with your viewpoint on modern American politics, but think that you are doing an injustice to historical America.  The ancient documents have been so misinterpreted and twisted out of context that people have forgotten what real freedom is like (kinda like what happened to the Bible, yo.) :whoa:

People came over here to be free because they were being tyrannized where they lived formerly.  They fought to be free to live how they wanted, to rule over themselves and let each colony (and later, state) decide how it wanted to deal with its own people.  When they wrote about the unalienable rights of every human being in the Declaration of Independence, it wasn't just a puff of smoke.  :sheesha:  They meant it.

Of course, today we have forgotten that and strayed from the original vision of freedom and community.  It mostly happened during and after the Civil War during Reconstruction.

One of the things that bugs me the most is when someone takes a modern interpretation of something that happened in our history and swallows it whole, whether they disagree with it or not.  Please remember that just because it's the modern interpretation doesn't mean it's the genuine article.

The reason we speak of the rights of humans and not animals is not because animals don't have "rights" (an ambiguous term, by the way, which could mean a variety of different things) but because we are not animals, and thus have no authority to decide anything in their realm.  We are humans and have jurisdiction over our own kind.  Why would we kill a cougar because it slaughtered a deer for food?  1) It's not our business, 2) It was beneficial to the cougar to consume the deer and thus was not acting out of revenge or some undeniably hateful emotion, and 3) It would be terribly inefficient to hunt down every cougar and kill it simply because it's in their nature to hunt deer.

I guess I have trouble understanding why you would abandon the idea of rights simply because of the way we apply them, especially regarding our non-application to another species.  Or at least, abandon the terminology.  Perhaps you are simply trying to avoid the abuse of the term by using different phrasing, because I do agree with what I understand you to be saying here:

Quote:

There is a natural "order" we can agree to live in harmony with, or not. This has nothing to do with any idea of "rights" bestowed upon us by some mysterious ethereal force of justice.
We are that force.
It is up to us.



The problem for me is that, much as the term "rights" is ambiguous, it is still yet more ambiguous to avoid using the term, because now I don't know if you think that regarding others as yourself is to be defended at all costs, or if there's an aspect of naturalism and nihilism seeping into your viewpoint.

For instance, should we give into our natural instincts?  In many cases this actually leads to violence.  The term "rights" has been beaten into shape over the centuries, providing a better context for the discussion at hand.  I think you may possibly be trying too hard to escape the modern distortion of historic concepts.

When most people think of "rights," they think of the value each individual has which calls for just as much fair treatment as we would expect for ourselves.  Would you rather we not hold people innocent until proven guilty?  Methinks that in the midst of trying to battle the system's abuses of something good (i.e. the "Patriot Act" which extends the government's power over us in the name of protecting us citizens), you are battling the good, too.

I'm just saying, for the sake of our solid historical foundations which can make our cause ten times stronger, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


Edited by stellar renegade (09/25/07 02:09 AM)


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7450896 - 09/25/07 08:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

We as humans have the power to control ourselves, other humans and other animals. With force, or even just persuasion. This realm we live in is not ruled by no man. We think it is because of set laws and such, and laws can be broken.

Do what you want in this world. But to not have harsh consequences one must not do harm to others or those others shall be at war and in war there will be some left dead.

If we live in peace instead of war we can get some where, we can do things together.

In society and culture to those in government it's all about control, control their actions and control their thoughts.

To me it's total bullshit... control yourselves and do not be persuaded by those in control.

Peace,
Droz


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7450912 - 09/25/07 08:46 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

great post, Clean :heart:


Quote:

stellar renegade said:
The reason we speak of the rights of humans and not animals is not because animals don't have "rights" (an ambiguous term, by the way, which could mean a variety of different things) but because we are not animals




what?! :what:


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: demiu5]
    #7451293 - 09/25/07 10:46 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Droz, yeah. I'm a libertarian.

demius - do you believe we have control over the affairs of animals? Or what do you find shocking about what I said?


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7451394 - 09/25/07 11:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Humans are animals.  Specifically, we are primates.  Though we may create an artificial distinction between "man" and "beast," our biology recognizes no such difference.  :shrug:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Clean]
    #7451528 - 09/25/07 11:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I agree. Very good post. Rare.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Veritas]
    #7451539 - 09/25/07 11:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Humans are animals.  Specifically, we are primates.  Though we may create an artificial distinction between "man" and "beast," our biology recognizes no such difference.  :shrug:


That seems more or less semantics.  All I'm saying is that they're a different kind than us.  I would expect wolves to rule over their own kind, elephants to rule over their own kind, etc.  The same for humans.  That's all I'm saying.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7451555 - 09/25/07 11:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That's not what you said initially, however, you said that humans are not animals, which is what demius was responding to with astonishment. :grin:

Seems a bit silly to say that we are "allowed" to rule over fellow humans due to shared genetics, though, because who went out for the evening & left us in charge?  :lol:

In addition, humans DO claim authority over animals.  We interfere with their lives in many ways, and often intervene in their natural dealings with one another.  Perhaps we have no right to do this, but we are all animals, and we are sharing this planet, so how would one go about defining who or what has what right?  :grin:  Does a cougar have the "right" to attack a jogger on a mountain trail?  Does a rancher have the right to shoot a wolf which is attacking his cattle?


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Veritas]
    #7451581 - 09/25/07 12:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Scientifically? Yeah, I guess we are animals. But there many times seems to be both a societal definition of words and a technical definition. So, if I use the societal definition and you make a statement about the technical definition, I'll give you that. Doesn't really matter to me.

Anyways, I'm not for a special group of people ruling over the others at all. I'm talking about us collectively ruling over ourselves, all together. This certainly has precedent in the animal kingdom, and in the human race even.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


Edited by stellar renegade (09/25/07 12:04 PM)


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