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 World Spirit
PNW
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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 Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS  [Re: Pynchon]
#747215 - 07/15/02 05:21 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Deleted by admin
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 Nomad
Mad Robot
Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: erectronik]
#747237 - 07/15/02 05:34 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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You mind doing us the luxury of an example arguement of Behe's, Nomad?
All of his arguments are based on the notion of irreducibly complex systems.
An example for this would be a mouse trap... you cannot take a piece of wood,
catch some mice, add a spring, catch some more mice, add a piece of metal...
you either have a mouse trap, or you got nothing at all. Thus, a mouse trap
cannot evolve in the biological sense. If a cat had mouse traps instead of
claws, this would be a damn good argument against evolution.
Now, at the biochemical level, we are full of mouse traps. The bacterial
flagellum is one of them:
http://www.id.ucsb.edu/fscf/library/origins/graphics-captions/flagellum.html
This is not an argument in favor of god or whatever. It means that
life has been designed. No need for any wild speculations... just another
thing to add to the list of strange things in a strange universe.
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Anonymous
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
#747341 - 07/15/02 06:40 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why cannot Creation and Evolution exist side by side?
If an omnipotent and omniscienct being such as God would create the Earth and the Human Race, why would he leave no room for improvement?
Are you saying the human race is perfect right now as it is?
Evolution is the process of change to better suit one to its environment.
We didn't have to evolve from monkeys for the idea of evolution to exist.
Think about it
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Anonymous
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Nomad]
#747374 - 07/15/02 06:57 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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It means that life has been designed.
Some would argue this design was performed via the process of evolution. According to this theory, the complex systems that we observe in nature today evolved over a period of more than 3.5 billion years (the oldest microfossils are about 3.5 billion years old), this can hardly be compared to building a mouse trap in a day (or a week). It is only preconceptions, religious prejudice and/or mindsets which utilize anthropomorphic models of nature that lead people to believe that evolution of complex systems could not have occured.
Edited by Evolving (07/15/02 06:59 AM)
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Lallafa
p_g monocle
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 2,598
Loc: underbelly
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 Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
#747393 - 07/15/02 07:04 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson
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Anonymous
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
#747402 - 07/15/02 07:07 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why cannot Creation and Evolution exist side by side?
...an omnipotent and omniscienct being such as God would create the Earth and the Human Race...
Indeed, why not? I spent my whole life from kindergarten to 12th grade in Catholic schools and not one of my instructors ever expressed the idea that evolution goes against a Christian belief in God. As a matter of fact, they acknowledged that the old testament was written for an ignorant, illiterate stone age people and ideas had to be presented in a form that they could relate to. This does not detract from the underlying spirituality and mystery of their religion. Many of them personally thought it increased the wonder and beauty that they saw in God's creation.
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
#747406 - 07/15/02 07:09 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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evolving- I hate telling you that you're wasting your time as an intelligent person by thinking that you may elicit a positive response to your post. Enter has already shown us that s/he is close-minded. Since that is the case, s/he is doing nothing but trolling.
I should change my sig. to read something like "I don't deal with closed minds."
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Anonymous
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
#747431 - 07/15/02 07:25 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Humanity was seeded from another planet.
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Anonymous
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Sclorch]
#747440 - 07/15/02 07:27 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sclorch, I hope that not everyone is as closed minded as enter. Perhaps I can prompt someone else other than the fundamentalists to see things from a different perspective. But I do see your point.
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World Spirit
PNW
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Sclorch]
#747527 - 07/15/02 08:10 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Deleted by admin
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BlueShroom
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Registered: 02/22/02
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 Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
#747531 - 07/15/02 08:11 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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What sort of theory do you suppose should take evolutions place? That some GOD created all the animal species we see today? Give me a break!
1. Because those other monkeys also proved to be viable variations (like us) on our common anchestors.
2. There was, but they died in competition with us. Do a search for "Cro Magnon".
3. Come on, the theory of God is just as unproven as the theory of Santa Claus. Nobody contrieved or "setup" the complex ecosystem we see today. If there is a nice (or one is created by chance) then animals will evolve to fill that nice. And there is a lot of ways to survive in nature even thoug you may be a small tubeworm living in boiling water at the bottom of the ocean or you are a small virus carried in the bloodstream of some of the higher evolved monkeys. since there is a lot of nices to be filled there has also evolved an abundance of creatures to fill those.
But we can go on and on with this argument and get nowhere, unless you have some wonderful new theory to take the current dominating theories place.
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Things can only get better from now on!
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World Spirit
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Deleted by admin
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Nomad
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
#747600 - 07/15/02 08:40 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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According to this theory, the complex systems that we observe in nature today evolved over a period of more than 3.5 billion years (the oldest microfossils are about 3.5 billion years old), this can hardly be compared to building a mouse trap in a day (or a week).
Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't make my statement clear enough. I'm not arguing about the evolution from bacteria to humans which may well be possible.
I'm arguing about the very foundations of life. Where did the microfossils 3.5 billion years ago come from? We have never witnessed the formation of a cell out of amino acids, although there have been hundreds of experiments simulating the early days. The branch of science which is closest to actually producing a working cell is not chemistry, it is nanotechnology. Just half a year ago nanotechnologists built a transport mechanism for microscopic devices, somewhat similar to the flagellum of bacteria. Did you check out the link? The foundations of life are shaky, and I'm not making this up. Francis Crick, the scientist who discovered DNA, believes that aliens have seeded live on earth.
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manmoutainmurphy
Stranger
Registered: 07/04/02
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
#747616 - 07/15/02 08:45 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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There's one itty bitty problem with your idea ther, enter. Go out at night, take a look up at the stars. Get yourself a half way decent telescope or even a strong set of binoculars. Get somebody to line up on M33 in Andromeda. That speck of light you'll be staring at is the next nearest galaxy to the one our sun is found in, the Milky Way. It's more then 3 million light years away. A light year is the disrance light will travel in one Earth year (iow, 365 days).
What that means is, the light you'll be seeing was radiated from the M33 galaxy over 3 million years ago, and spent the time in transit to the vacinity of Earth, your telesscope, and hence your eyes. Boils down to this...every time you look at the stars, you're looking into a sort of time machine. Because you're seeing them as they were, not as they are today. The light shed by them today won't reach us for in many cases EXTREMELY long periods of time.
M33 is, as I said, the closest galaaxy to our own. With the Hubble Telescope, we've observed images tremendously farther away (nd therefore images tremendously further into the past).
Light speed is a universal constent, and in a vacumn will NOT speed up. That's bascic Theory of Relativity, although this particular has been scientifically proven to be a fact. Light can't be made to exceed the speed at which it travels, even if you burned the entire galaxy and put the energy into pushing one single photon.
The only dodge around this from a creationist point of view, would to claim that God created the entire universe in one instant, with the light ALL READY IN TRANSIT.
Two problems with this. One is with the physics, the other is theological
If the entire universe WAS a recent (as in less then 10,000 years old) construct, why would astronemers be able to observe protostars that are in the early stages of stellar formation? We've got tons of images of this very thing.
Secound is the theological, and it ties in toi the emages we have of an evolving universe that surrounds us. God couldn't or wouldn't make a perfect work of the creation, so that the only conclusions we'd draw from our research would be inclined to be wrong... because God made it LOOK like the universe was 13 billion years old? What kinda of an egomaniac is this deity supposed to be? Hmmm?
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World Spirit
PNW
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Bullfrog1
Discovery BeyondImagination
Registered: 07/03/02
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
#747631 - 07/15/02 08:51 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hours are never mentioned in Genesis.
A day to the creator, in my opinion is "his time", not our measurement. Any numbskull who suggests, as most creationist do, that the earth is merely 6000 years old, is an idiot!
The corruptness (both in translation and content),of the Judeao / Christian bible, is enough to deter myself from "belonging" to any sect.
There was a famous saying, by I forget whom, that any teaching that would shock a child's mind, cannot be a true religion.
I could never explain to a child a need for a "God", to have a father asked to sacrifice his only child to prove his devotion as Abraham was asked. It's just plain sick! Any thoughts, oh great believing ones?
Bullfrog1
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World Spirit
PNW
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
#747645 - 07/15/02 08:55 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Deleted by admin
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Nomad
Mad Robot
Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Nomad]
#747650 - 07/15/02 08:57 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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this can hardly be compared to building a mouse trap in a day (or a week).
Time wouldn't matter. Genetic evolution could not give you a mouse trap in ten billion years. A mutation with no benefit would not stick around long enough for another mutation to happen, which would still give you no benefit, until a third mutation happens which gives you a mouse trap. Similar with other irreducibly complex systems. It just doesn't work. If you knew of a way to achieve, say, the blood clotting mechanism (another example by Behe) by evolution, you would make a lot of biochemists happy.
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World Spirit
PNW
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Bullfrog1]
#747651 - 07/15/02 08:57 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Deleted by admin
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Anonymous
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Nomad]
#747749 - 07/15/02 09:28 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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The foundations of life are shaky...
I wouldn't use the term 'shaky,' I would use the term 'unknown.' We humans are really quite ignorant of the many things that happen on our planet even in the dawn of this information age. Our ideas about the true nature of the environment and processes involved at the time of the dawn of life on earth are conjecture at best.
Francis Crick, the scientist who discovered DNA, believes that aliens have seeded live on earth.
This of course begs the question of how this hypothetical alien life arose.
I admit profound ignorance about how life arose in the universe, however I do not consider this to be an argument for any particular opinion on the matter (which is the opposite approach of most, if not all religions). It is best to admit our ignorance and not allow it to be used as an excuse to blindly believe the mythologies and follow the dogma of a stone age society (I do understand that you were not advocating this). As attractive and convienient as the concept of intelligent design is, it is still conjecture and can be construed as imposing human attributes on as of yet unknown aspects of nature (this is not to say that it won't ultimately be proven out). I found the link you provided fascinating (as is usual for me with the science of biology) and thought provoking, thank you.
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