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InvisibleClean
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Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence * 1
    #7448985 - 09/24/07 07:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Whatever you want to call it...
"God-given" "natural" "civil" "human" "unalienable"...

I used to be hypnotized by this idea that we all have "rights" ordained to us by creation. This belief is what most protesters are invoking when they fill the streets and shout their slogans. I know because I used to join in such behavior.
But when you see these perceived "rights" constantly ignored by governments and war makers, by people who are allegedly supposed to "represent" you and "uphold the rights" of everyone, it's a source of major discouragement and confusion.

If our ideas of "rights" are valid, then every single creature that engages in predatory action is a criminal and should be tried by a proper court established to uphold these "rights".
In response to the last sentence, one could say "...well that's ridiculous to apply human standards to mere animals."
So then, if ethereal "rights" do in fact exist, why are they only applicable to humans? Sounds like fundamentalist religious dogma to me.

I've come to a realization that "rights" as we love to think of them DON'T EXIST. At all.
What we do have is a complex social system in which beings can agree, in the interest of everyone in your local group, to get along.... or not.

Furthermore, can you see how the concept of "rights" is actually being used against us?

If there are "rights" then there needs to be a "court" to uphold them. There you have a recipe for an instant hierarchy. Just add water...(or blood, in this case)

I look at society and see that we have a group which sees itself as superior to all other life on the planet, and has taken upon itself the task of actively dominating and controlling the affairs of all life on the planet. Obviously, they have no "right" to do so, just as we have no "right" to live free of such a group's influence, just as a fish has no "right" to not be plucked out of the water by a bear, and so on..

The concept of "rights" has taken root in place of the idea that we can all manage to live our lives without murdering and subjugating each other for the benefit of a particular group.
I would argue that this idol we call "rights" is a psycho-semantic tool by which we abdicate personal responsibility for how we conduct our lives on a personal and a global scale.


There is a natural "order" we can agree to live in harmony with, or not. This has nothing to do with any idea of "rights" bestowed upon us by some mysterious ethereal force of justice.
We are that force.
It is up to us.


Edited by Clean (09/24/07 09:42 PM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Clean]
    #7449049 - 09/24/07 08:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yup :thumbup:

:laugh:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineAnarchoTrip
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Clean]
    #7449057 - 09/24/07 08:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Don't you think that every human being and animal should have the right to live a peaceful and joyful life?


--------------------
YIPPIE!


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: AnarchoTrip]
    #7449072 - 09/24/07 08:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think that creatures can agree (or not) to live their lives however they see fit, independent of any mystical "right".


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OfflineAnarchoTrip
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Clean]
    #7449076 - 09/24/07 08:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

okay. point understood.


--------------------
YIPPIE!


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: AnarchoTrip]
    #7449162 - 09/24/07 08:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I would say we have no rights, and in the same realm there is no such thing as 'right and wrong', 'good or evil' etc. It's all just up for interpretation. What one person says is good, someone else may view as bad, so on and so forth.

We all merely exist, and nothing more, any concepts or ideas we create ourselves.


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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: AnarchoTrip]
    #7449178 - 09/24/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i used to think that the rights we naturally have were dependent on the will of the government and so on... like we dont already have them and we forget so we continue to feel imprisoned  by other peoples mindless games...  i realized i am already free and i feel so happy not to find myself trapped by others ideas of how my life should be...:bongload:


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OfflineLion
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: AnarchoTrip]
    #7449295 - 09/24/07 09:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

AnarchoTrip said:
Don't you think that every human being and animal should have the right to live a peaceful and joyful life?


Going back to Clean's example: How can a bear have a peaceful and joyful life unless it takes away the rights of thousands of fish to their peaceful enjoyment of life?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #7449414 - 09/24/07 09:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mastamike1118 said:
i used to think that the rights we naturally have were dependent on the will of the government and so on... like we dont already have them and we forget so we continue to feel imprisoned  by other peoples mindless games...  i realized i am already free and i feel so happy not to find myself trapped by others ideas of how my life should be...:bongload:




Exactly. They want you to believe that your "rights" would be severely jeopardized were they not there with their sacred pieces of paper, which none of us or our relatives have ever signed, claiming to ordain them sole protectors and keepers of said "rights" for everyone.

(obviously this is coming from an american perspective, but the rhetoric of most modern western, "secular" governments is the same...)

You can be as free in your mind as you want.  But a mind can barely approach freedom if it does not first realize the extent of it's lack of freedom.

There's people (collectively referred to as "Government") who think that you are beholden to their authority simply because of where you were born, and the fact that your mother and her doctor signed you off on an "official" piece of paper the day that your life began.
You are expected to pay allegiance to them, and when you become old enough you are expected to allow them to take a portion of your earnings, enforceable by physical punishment if you refuse. 

They will tell you that their authority to do this is based on your approval, so the act of taxation is not considered robbery, because it is "legal", even though the pure act of robbery and taxation are the same.

They will give you the option of choosing between members of their ranks to lead the organization by which these deeds are accomplished. (Politicians are not "just regular folks" who "decided to run" for whatever position.)

  They will tell you it is your organization, and that they are purely your agents (ordained by you), carrying out the necessary tasks to ensure your continued survival in relative comfort.  At the same time, they will tell you that if you even peacefully refuse their services, and refuse to comply by their rules, even if you are not hurting or endangering any other individual, you will be subject to severe punishment both financial and physical. 
But it's your system, remember. 

They will also attempt to scare you with astronomical numbers representing the amount that you collectively "owe" to the creditors financing your system.

They will tell you this is as free as it gets, and that you should be proud to be so free.


Edited by Clean (09/24/07 09:43 PM)


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Lion]
    #7449435 - 09/24/07 09:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

for all i know getting ripped out of my reality and eaten by a bear is an ecstatic experience on par with enlightenment (for a fish).


Edited by Clean (09/24/07 09:44 PM)


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Offlinecellardoor
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Lion]
    #7449456 - 09/24/07 09:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i agree with krypto. "good" and "evil" are defined differently for each individual, so "rights" that apply to a larger group would have to be agreed upon by that group, isn't that like morals? what we ought to do/not do etc...is that even possible?

we are totally discussing this topic in my political philosophy class.


--------------------
"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."~William Blake



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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Clean]
    #7450322 - 09/25/07 02:06 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with your viewpoint on modern American politics, but think that you are doing an injustice to historical America.  The ancient documents have been so misinterpreted and twisted out of context that people have forgotten what real freedom is like (kinda like what happened to the Bible, yo.) :whoa:

People came over here to be free because they were being tyrannized where they lived formerly.  They fought to be free to live how they wanted, to rule over themselves and let each colony (and later, state) decide how it wanted to deal with its own people.  When they wrote about the unalienable rights of every human being in the Declaration of Independence, it wasn't just a puff of smoke.  :sheesha:  They meant it.

Of course, today we have forgotten that and strayed from the original vision of freedom and community.  It mostly happened during and after the Civil War during Reconstruction.

One of the things that bugs me the most is when someone takes a modern interpretation of something that happened in our history and swallows it whole, whether they disagree with it or not.  Please remember that just because it's the modern interpretation doesn't mean it's the genuine article.

The reason we speak of the rights of humans and not animals is not because animals don't have "rights" (an ambiguous term, by the way, which could mean a variety of different things) but because we are not animals, and thus have no authority to decide anything in their realm.  We are humans and have jurisdiction over our own kind.  Why would we kill a cougar because it slaughtered a deer for food?  1) It's not our business, 2) It was beneficial to the cougar to consume the deer and thus was not acting out of revenge or some undeniably hateful emotion, and 3) It would be terribly inefficient to hunt down every cougar and kill it simply because it's in their nature to hunt deer.

I guess I have trouble understanding why you would abandon the idea of rights simply because of the way we apply them, especially regarding our non-application to another species.  Or at least, abandon the terminology.  Perhaps you are simply trying to avoid the abuse of the term by using different phrasing, because I do agree with what I understand you to be saying here:

Quote:

There is a natural "order" we can agree to live in harmony with, or not. This has nothing to do with any idea of "rights" bestowed upon us by some mysterious ethereal force of justice.
We are that force.
It is up to us.



The problem for me is that, much as the term "rights" is ambiguous, it is still yet more ambiguous to avoid using the term, because now I don't know if you think that regarding others as yourself is to be defended at all costs, or if there's an aspect of naturalism and nihilism seeping into your viewpoint.

For instance, should we give into our natural instincts?  In many cases this actually leads to violence.  The term "rights" has been beaten into shape over the centuries, providing a better context for the discussion at hand.  I think you may possibly be trying too hard to escape the modern distortion of historic concepts.

When most people think of "rights," they think of the value each individual has which calls for just as much fair treatment as we would expect for ourselves.  Would you rather we not hold people innocent until proven guilty?  Methinks that in the midst of trying to battle the system's abuses of something good (i.e. the "Patriot Act" which extends the government's power over us in the name of protecting us citizens), you are battling the good, too.

I'm just saying, for the sake of our solid historical foundations which can make our cause ten times stronger, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


Edited by stellar renegade (09/25/07 02:09 AM)


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7450896 - 09/25/07 08:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

We as humans have the power to control ourselves, other humans and other animals. With force, or even just persuasion. This realm we live in is not ruled by no man. We think it is because of set laws and such, and laws can be broken.

Do what you want in this world. But to not have harsh consequences one must not do harm to others or those others shall be at war and in war there will be some left dead.

If we live in peace instead of war we can get some where, we can do things together.

In society and culture to those in government it's all about control, control their actions and control their thoughts.

To me it's total bullshit... control yourselves and do not be persuaded by those in control.

Peace,
Droz


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7450912 - 09/25/07 08:46 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

great post, Clean :heart:


Quote:

stellar renegade said:
The reason we speak of the rights of humans and not animals is not because animals don't have "rights" (an ambiguous term, by the way, which could mean a variety of different things) but because we are not animals




what?! :what:


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: demiu5]
    #7451293 - 09/25/07 10:46 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Droz, yeah. I'm a libertarian.

demius - do you believe we have control over the affairs of animals? Or what do you find shocking about what I said?


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7451394 - 09/25/07 11:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Humans are animals.  Specifically, we are primates.  Though we may create an artificial distinction between "man" and "beast," our biology recognizes no such difference.  :shrug:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Clean]
    #7451528 - 09/25/07 11:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I agree. Very good post. Rare.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Veritas]
    #7451539 - 09/25/07 11:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Humans are animals.  Specifically, we are primates.  Though we may create an artificial distinction between "man" and "beast," our biology recognizes no such difference.  :shrug:


That seems more or less semantics.  All I'm saying is that they're a different kind than us.  I would expect wolves to rule over their own kind, elephants to rule over their own kind, etc.  The same for humans.  That's all I'm saying.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7451555 - 09/25/07 11:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That's not what you said initially, however, you said that humans are not animals, which is what demius was responding to with astonishment. :grin:

Seems a bit silly to say that we are "allowed" to rule over fellow humans due to shared genetics, though, because who went out for the evening & left us in charge?  :lol:

In addition, humans DO claim authority over animals.  We interfere with their lives in many ways, and often intervene in their natural dealings with one another.  Perhaps we have no right to do this, but we are all animals, and we are sharing this planet, so how would one go about defining who or what has what right?  :grin:  Does a cougar have the "right" to attack a jogger on a mountain trail?  Does a rancher have the right to shoot a wolf which is attacking his cattle?


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Veritas]
    #7451581 - 09/25/07 12:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Scientifically? Yeah, I guess we are animals. But there many times seems to be both a societal definition of words and a technical definition. So, if I use the societal definition and you make a statement about the technical definition, I'll give you that. Doesn't really matter to me.

Anyways, I'm not for a special group of people ruling over the others at all. I'm talking about us collectively ruling over ourselves, all together. This certainly has precedent in the animal kingdom, and in the human race even.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


Edited by stellar renegade (09/25/07 12:04 PM)


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OfflineBoots
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7451646 - 09/25/07 12:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I don't believe in "natural" or God-given rights". In my opinion, nothing is inherent.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Boots] * 1
    #7451695 - 09/25/07 12:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

We are granted the 'right to live' for as long as we can survive. :pirate:


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Boots]
    #7451758 - 09/25/07 12:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Boots said:
I don't believe in "natural" or God-given rights". In my opinion, nothing is inherent.



I hate to sound corny, but is everything inherently non-inherent?

Let's put it another way. What makes things inherently real? Or are they not? What makes a tree inherently a tree? Is nothing inherent? Then how do we even understand the concept of inherentness? How do things hold together separate from each other and retain their uniqueness?

It's troublesome to try to refute the concept of inherentness IMO. The most you can say is that some traits are non-inherent while others still are inherent. Maybe you simply mean that the right to live is not inherent, which would entail another kind of discussion.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7451803 - 09/25/07 01:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

stellar renegade said:
All I'm saying is that they're a different kind than us. I would expect wolves to rule over their own kind, elephants to rule over their own kind, etc. The same for humans. That's all I'm saying.




of course they're a different kind than us, just as wolves are a different kind than fish, and so on.

Also, in [the rare] environments where humans haven't fucked up/invaded/raped other animals' territories, those animals do rule their own kind


--------------------
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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: demiu5]
    #7451821 - 09/25/07 01:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Good, then they're doing what I would expect them to. :tongue2:


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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OfflineBoots
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7454642 - 09/26/07 07:05 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

stellar renegade said:
Quote:

Boots said:
I don't believe in "natural" or God-given rights". In my opinion, nothing is inherent.



I hate to sound corny, but is everything inherently non-inherent?

Let's put it another way. What makes things inherently real? Or are they not? What makes a tree inherently a tree? Is nothing inherent? Then how do we even understand the concept of inherentness? How do things hold together separate from each other and retain their uniqueness?

It's troublesome to try to refute the concept of inherentness IMO. The most you can say is that some traits are non-inherent while others still are inherent. Maybe you simply mean that the right to live is not inherent, which would entail another kind of discussion.




A tree isn't inherently a tree. It wasn't born with the name "tree". Humans developed the language. Things are real because we experience them. That being said, the hallucinations seen when on a psychedelic aren't real in the sense that they are tangible, but the experience of the hallucinations was real. We understand the concept of inherent-ness because we (humans) created it. Also, the right to live is not inherent.


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Boots]
    #7455841 - 09/26/07 01:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Man, discussions here have been too frustrating as of late. I'm going to get back to this when I have more time and mental energy to process through my answer.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7458417 - 09/27/07 12:37 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I guess I have trouble understanding why you would abandon the idea of rights simply because of the way we apply them, especially regarding our non-application to another species. Or at least, abandon the terminology. Perhaps you are simply trying to avoid the abuse of the term by using different phrasing




Essentially I am trying to avoid what I described in bold originally. The neglect of personal power and responsibility by replacing it with magic fairy dust sprinkled on us, and the want for an outside authoritarian management scheme to validate and safeguard that fairy dust.

My point here centers around the idea that I am opposed to such authoritarian structures because history has shown that they end up being managed by the criminally insane who look down on the "common man" and treat our collective consciousness like putty to be molded at their whim, and treat our lives like cheap throw-away prophylactics at their endless orgy. And we put up with it. Ever wonder why that might be?

Quote:

The problem for me is that, much as the term "rights" is ambiguous, it is still yet more ambiguous to avoid using the term, because now I don't know if you think that regarding others as yourself is to be defended at all costs, or if there's an aspect of naturalism and nihilism seeping into your viewpoint.




I confess I'm finding it hard to grok everything you said after the third comma there, and I don't know what you mean by naturalism and nihilism.

Quote:


For instance, should we give into our natural instincts? In many cases this actually leads to violence.




What feels to me like my "natural instincts" are feelings of wanting to have a mutual understanding with my neighbors to live peaceably, regardless of our ideological differences. To not infringe on someone else's sovereignty simply because I may be in disagreement with them over something. To not have to put up with all the conflict that arises from being hypnotized by the myriad aspects of perceived separateness. (This includes superiority complexes, which goes to the heart of the idea of "equal rights") To share a collective awareness of universality and the fact that we all come from the same source, every moment.

Quote:


Would you rather we not hold people innocent until proven guilty?



More often than not, we don't hold people innocent until proven guilty. That we do, seems to me one of the many lies laid before us so that we believe that the so-called "justice system" is there in our best interest.

Quote:

Methinks that in the midst of trying to battle the system's abuses of something good (i.e. the "Patriot Act" which extends the government's power over us in the name of protecting us citizens), you are battling the good, too.




I get the sense that we are coming from fundamentally different perspectives of modern government and the circumstances by which it has arisen.

In my view, despite the rhetoric we've all been indoctrinated with, abuse is intrinsic to the nature of "the system".
With all due respect.... the baby is dead and the bathwater is bloody and rotten.
In terms of the last few thousand years of human socio-political life, I see very little in the way of "historical foundations" worth building on (application of knowledge such as was popularized by Korzybski's work with general semantics might be a good start).

We have hardly known freedom in a collective sense. Our slavery has evolved. Only very recently have we been tantalized by the scent of something approaching freedom worth taking pride in, but we have been played like a fiddle, and the song has been coming to a crescendo for over 200+ years...the result of the masses relegating control over the affairs of collective life to a small group of power elite, born and bred , or so(u)ld out and sucked up into their positions.

Regarding the Constitution...I suggest some reading. This is an excerpt from the 1870 version of "No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority by Lysander Spooner.

Quote:

NO TREASON

NO. VI.

THE CONSTITUTION OF NO AUTHORITY


I.

The Constitution has no inherent authority or obligation. It has no authority or obligation at all, unless as a contract between man and man. And it does not so much as even purport to be a contract between persons now existing. It purports, at most, to be only a contract between persons living eighty years ago. And it can be supposed to have been a contract then only between persons who had already come to years of discretion, so as to be competent to make reasonable and obligatory contracts. Furthermore, we know, historically, that only a small portion even of the people then existing were consulted on the subject, or asked, or permitted to express either their consent or dissent in any formal manner. Those persons, if any, who did give their consent formally, are all dead now. Most of them have been dead forty, fifty, sixty, or seventy years. And the constitution, so far as it was their contract, died with them. They had no natural power or right to make it obligatory upon their children. It is not only plainly impossible, in the nature of things, that they could bind their posterity, but they did not even attempt to bind them. That is to say, the instrument does not purport to be an agreement between any body but "the people" then existing; nor does it, either ex- [*4] pressly or impliedly, assert any right, power, or disposition, on their part, to bind anybody but themselves. Let us see. Its language is:

"We, the people of the United States (that is, the people then existing in the United States), in order to form a more perfect union, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

It is plain, in the first place, that this language, as an agreement, purports to be only what it at most really was, viz., a contract between the people then existing; and, of necessity, binding, as a contract, only upon those then existing. In the second place, the language neither expresses nor implies that they had any right or power, to bind their "posterity" to live under it. It does not say that their "posterity" will, shall, or must live under it. It only says, in effect, that their hopes and motives in adopting it were that it might prove useful to their posterity, as well as to themselves, by promoting their union, safety, tranquility, liberty, etc.

Suppose an agreement were entered into, in this form:

We, the people of Boston, agree to maintain a fort on Governor's Island, to protect ourselves and our posterity against invasion.

This agreement, as an agreement, would clearly bind nobody but the people then existing. Secondly, it would assert no right, power, or disposition, on their part, to compel, their "posterity" to maintain such a fort. It would only indicate that the supposed welfare of their posterity was one of the motives that induced the original parties to enter into the agreement.

When a man says he is building a house for himself and his posterity, he does not mean to be understood as saying that he has any thought of binding them, nor is it to be inferred that he [*5] is so foolish as to imagine that he has any right or power to bind them, to live in it. So far as they are concerned, he only means to be understood as saying that his hopes and motives, in building it, are that they, or at least some of them, may find it for their happiness to live in it.

So when a man says he is planting a tree for himself and his posterity, he does not mean to be understood as saying that he has any thought of compelling them, nor is it to be inferred that he is such a simpleton as to imagine that he has any right or power to compel them, to eat the fruit. So far as they are concerned, he only means to say that his hopes and motives, in planting the tree, are that its fruit may be agreeable to them.

So it was with those who originally adopted the Constitution. Whatever may have been their personal intentions, the legal meaning of their language, so far as their "posterity" was concerned, simply was, that their hopes and motives, in entering into the agreement, were that it might prove useful and acceptable to their posterity; that it might promote their union, safety, tranquility, and welfare; and that it might tend "to secure to them the blessings of liberty." The language does not assert nor at all imply, any right, power, or disposition, on the part of the original parties to the agreement, to compel their "posterity" to live under it. If they had intended to bind their posterity to live under it, they should have said that their objective was, not "to secure to them the blessings of liberty," but to make slaves of them; for if their "posterity" are bound to live under it, they are nothing less than the slaves of their foolish, tyrannical, and dead grandfathers.




And he goes on in this fashion...


Edited by Clean (09/27/07 01:36 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Clean]
    #7459648 - 09/27/07 10:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup::thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Icelander]
    #7505329 - 10/10/07 01:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

:lol: i bet Spooner was quite a "thread killer" back in the day too..


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7507784 - 10/11/07 02:41 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Rights are based upon Spiritual truth, a moral standard we are all obligated to obey. If you don't believe in morality, then rights naturally are non existant. But I think it's very important to take a step back and think of the implecations of this. This means no true Love, no integrity, sacrednes of life, or any moral value whatsoever. It would be a mere figment of our imaginations. Are you really ready to give up on love? Do you really tell yourself that Love is not real? What do you live for? Mere carnal pleasures? Ask yourself what you know for sure. Do you really know anything greater than you know the reality of love? But this would blatantly contradict a purely naturalistic philosophy, and it does. But nevertheless many continue to recognise this form of Godliness, however distorted through their corrupt imaginations and desires, yet disregarding the only logical source therof.


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #15228933 - 10/15/11 10:11 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Not that I expect a reply, considering this is 4 years old, but...

I think you are equating the concept of rights with the idea of the "golden rule" (treat others as you would want to be treated) etc.
Government doesn't exist to enforce the golden rule.  It exists to control large groups of people in an entirely non-voluntary manner.
Bottom line, are we capable of organizing in a VOLUNTARY way?  Or do we need to continue abdicating personal responsibility to gangs of armed criminals running a phony protection racket under the guise of Democracy?


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: Clean]
    #15229939 - 10/15/11 03:31 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Clean said:
Not that I expect a reply, considering this is 4 years old, but...

I think you are equating the concept of rights with the idea of the "golden rule" (treat others as you would want to be treated) etc.
Government doesn't exist to enforce the golden rule.  It exists to control large groups of people in an entirely non-voluntary manner.
Bottom line, are we capable of organizing in a VOLUNTARY way?  Or do we need to continue abdicating personal responsibility to gangs of armed criminals running a phony protection racket under the guise of Democracy?




Gangs of armed criminals exist, but people won't bother to make a collective effort to prevent them from having their way, unless they can see themselves profiting from it and the exceptions to this are too small from what my subjectivity allows me to see. What I see as right or wrong is the same as the rights in your OP, they don't exist independent of my mind, although there are rights and wrongs that have to do with every individuals biology and these should be emphasized. This is where the "golden rule" should come in, but it won't, because human nature mostly doesn't like to give up pleasure to ease someones pain it has no relation to. The "golden rule" should be the obvious choice in the world as far as I'm concerned, but it isn't. All systems in the world are corrupt, so the best we as humans can do is to be/make others aware of how it works and let them/ourselves decide how to live with the knowledge.

I believe we do have the potential to organize voluntarily, but I also don't believe we are going to. In the thousands of years it took for us to get to where we are now, the basic structure created has not changed. Even if there are people in the world who have the "best" idea and could change things into a "golden rule world", it will still be threatened by people who understand and could help, because people understanding the "best" idea does not entail them wanting it to happen. Everyone understanding it is a lot of "fairy dust thinking" as it is, because most people won't care about understanding or might not be capable of it, since the amount of people comfortable in their ignorance is increasing and without them we can't change the system that is keeping them in chains, even if we pretend that the "best" idea collectively carried out would be foolproof, which I have doubts about.

I think there have been improvement with greater awareness and with systems replacing others. The increased awareness might have helped change the system, but I don't know how much the improvements that happened were for the well-being of the whole, because I don't know how much of it was for greater wealth or power and how much of it was due to the benevolence of those creating it. Isn't this what all the revolutions did though? Achieved power by changing the system in a way that allowed them to stay in power. If it just so happened that it raised the standard of living, then nothing was done about it, because it would jeopardize the rulers power due to awareness and stability. I have a feeling a lot of people would chose a totalitarian state over a democracy, if it would be easier for them to remain in power.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinecrkhd
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Re: Rights - the ideas by which we believe we are entitled to a "free" & "just" existence [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #15229997 - 10/15/11 03:42 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

All things that are born have an innate right to die.

What is the process of death?

Life.

The boundaries are only those that have been defined by the geometry of space in which all rights have their time to come and go.

To say that laws do not exist while lawmakers breathe our air is like saying art does not exist when we are surrounded by artwork.


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


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