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 Zahid
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 Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS  [Re: World Spirit]
#756448 - 07/18/02 01:21 PM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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Evolution is a faith too.
Atheists often argue and try contradicting Christianity. They seem to forget there are two more mass faiths that link back to Abraham. One of them has a direct relation with Christianity, the other is excluded from Judeo-Christian tradition but at the same time preaches that all Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike are worthy of Paradise as long as they have faith. God can't be proven or disproven so it's useless to argue about it. Atheists argue against religion based on theories that are supposed to contradict Christiantiy (I don't know, does it? In the 130 years of Darwinism, why hasn't it been proven yet?) while monotheists argue that they have experienced God, witnessed many miracles that occured since conversion/finding God. See how this arguement is a dead end? An atheist can't change a Muslim/Jew/Christian, and a Muslim/Jew/Christian can't change an atheist. The world is ultimately divided up in two with people who believe in God, and people who do not believe in God. This feud existed for centuries. If evolution was directly proven, religion wouldn't have such a great influence on the world. If religion was directly proven, almost everyone would be a member of a monotheist faith. And from the believer's point of view, you have to wonder what allows evolution and God Himself not to be directly proven by man. This is one factor why billions of people have faith. Myself? I believe in God. I don't know why, I just do. To stereotype that only weak minded and stupid people "find God" is absurd. Just as reason and logic leads to people not believing in God, it's also reason and logic that leads people to believe in Him.
From my perspective (and others on this board) my faith isn't blind, otherwise I wouldn't believe in it. When you're a Christian, Jew, or a Muslim and you ingest a psychedelic, your "belief of faith" suddenly becomes "reality of faith".... I can't really describe experience, so it's useless to argue it.
Zahid,
the Sufi
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Edited by Zahid (07/18/02 01:34 PM)
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 WhiskeyClone
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Zahid]
#756523 - 07/18/02 01:58 PM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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Evolution is a faith too.
I dont think so.
This is from Mirriam-Webster Dictionary:
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no evidence(2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
None of this applies to my belief in evolution. I believe it because the evidence is overwhelming, and because I had no traditional religious doctrine to contradict it.
God can't be proven or disproven so it's useless to argue about it. Atheists argue against religion based on theories that are supposed to contradict Christiantiy (I don't know, does it? In the 130 years of Darwinism, why hasn't it been proven yet?)
Proven? Nothing can be truly proven. You can just consider the facts that you do have and make a decision. That's the only way anyone can say they 'know 'anything. Nobody has 'proven' to me that the Atlantic ocean exists. Never been there.
while monotheists argue that they have experienced God, witnessed many miracles that occured since conversion/finding God. See how this arguement is a dead end? An atheist can't change a Muslim/Jew/Christian, and a Muslim/Jew/Christian can't change an atheist.
I disagree; religion wouldn't exist if you couldn't change people's beliefs. And I know atheists that weren't always. However I certainly didn't post on this thread with the hopes of 'converting' anyone. I'm just having fun.
The world is ultimately divided up in two with people who believe in God, and people who do not believe in God.
You could divide it that way, if it was supposed to serve some purpose. You can also divide the world into innie belly buttons and outties.
This feud existed for centuries. If evolution was directly proven, religion wouldn't have such a great influence on the world.
I think the facts are staring everyone in the face and suggesting, quite convincingly, that our past is something like Charles Darwin had figured. I think it makes more sense than anything else. If a person's religious community and doctrine is more convincing than what they know about evolution, of course they will have faith in God.
If religion was directly proven, almost everyone would be a member of a monotheist faith. And from the believer's point of view, you have to wonder what allows evolution and God Himself not to be directly proven by man.
I don't have to wonder at all. How could we directly prove either of those things? You can't prove all the religions at once because there are too many contradictions. You can't even prove Christianity because of its own internal contradictions. I think religion has an insidious tendency to give man too much credit. Man created all scripture in his own image because he loves himself so much.
This is one factor why billions of people have faith. Myself? I believe in God. I don't know why, I just do.
I'm pretty sure you do know why you believe in God. If religion was always a part of your life, then that is why. If someone 'changed you' halfway through your life then that is why.
To stereotype that only weak minded and stupid people "find God" is absurd. Just as reason and logic leads to people not believing in God, it's also reason and logic that leads people to believe in Him.
I agree that is absurd. If someone has been taught something their whole life then they have every reason to believe it. And you're exactly right about the reason and logic. I'm sure every one's own beliefs make sense to themselves. And that's all that matters.
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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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PurpleSpidereye
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS *DELETED* [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#756832 - 07/18/02 04:17 PM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by PurpleSpidereye
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...One voice...
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Jared
Stranger
Registered: 04/22/01
Posts: 8,783
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Swami]
#757011 - 07/18/02 05:20 PM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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the experiment we leanred about in biology said that very crude cell like structures were formed, there were photos of them compared to real cells.
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Damn, I thought Zahid had left us for good...
CyberChump- thanks for saving this thread. It was getting extremely stale.
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Traveller
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Nomad]
#757981 - 07/19/02 01:24 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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The branch of science which is closest to actually producing a working cell is not chemistry, it is nanotechnology. Just half a year ago nanotechnologists built a transport mechanism for microscopic devices, somewhat similar to the flagellum of bacteria. Did you check out the link? The foundations of life are shaky, and I'm not making this up. Francis Crick, the scientist who discovered DNA, believes that aliens have seeded live on earth.
ive been thinking along these lines for the past few months, just sort of staring off into space thinking what if, as we all do.
did anyone else here read/hear about bacteria found in ancient glacial ice in antarctica, ice that has been frozen for several million years, which they thawed out, and the bacteria started growing again? adds weight to the idea that life can travel through space, in rocks or whatever, lying dormant until it reaches somewhere it can grow again.
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Traveller
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Nomad]
#757994 - 07/19/02 01:37 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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A mutation with no benefit would not stick around long enough for another mutation to happen
one funny thing about genes is that they do not seem to be responsible for only one particular physical or behavioural trait. on a discovery channel thingo recently about this very topic they were talking about fruit flies, which are apparently the organism most studied by geneticists to date. they noticed that sometimes fruit flies were born with white eyes instead of red ones (or maybe it was red eyes instead of black ones, but thats not so important), and then after a while they narrowed down which chromosome was responsible for the red eye/white eye trait, and so they were able to breed little fruit flies deliberately with white eyes. crazily though these white eyed fruit flies acted really strangely! they followed each other round in big long chains, one behind the other following a leader who wasnt going anywhere in particular and would latch onto another chain of flies or even onto the back end of its own chain so theyd all be walking around in circles instead of flying all over the place like the normal flies. and this came from the `switching off` of just one chromosome....so it seems that one mutation on the genetic level might actually cause several mutations on the physical and behavioural level, thus a mutation benefical to survival might also result in a completely useless bulge on the head, and who knows another beneficial mutation might result in that bulge becoming fluorescent while having some other completely useless side effect....etc.
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Traveller
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your translation of the tibetan mantra is by far the best i have ever heard.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Traveller]
#758120 - 07/19/02 03:58 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thank you. It is derived conceptually rather than literally from Lama Anagarika Govinda's 'Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism.' Unlike the usual 'Hail to the Jewel in the Lotus,' my rendering describes the 'Descent Towards Realization' that follows the 'Ascent Towards Unification' wherein one has the experience of Infinity, Light, etc. symbolized by OM. This process (which parallels the Kundalini experience in Hindu Yoga) is only the first half of the whole process in which the Absolute experienced at the Crown Center [OM] descends through the Throat Center [AH], and comes to indwell the Heart Center [HUM] on the human plane of Realization. There it becomes the Diamond Vehicle [Vajrayana] - the Jewel in the Lotus of the Heart.
By parallel, note the Catholic images of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, encircled by the Crown of Thorns. The Crown has descended to encircle the Heart Center. Compassion is embraced by Wisdom (as in the cosmic copulating couple in the Tibetan Yab-Yum); the Infinite has descended into the finite - Incarnation - in the flesh of the HUMan Heart.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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WhiskeyClone
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Sclorch]
#758141 - 07/19/02 04:10 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Damn, I thought Zahid had left us for good...
CyberChump- thanks for saving this thread. It was getting extremely stale.
Yes I sensed the staleness and came with a fresh dose of controversy. Let's keep this thread going until the apocalypse starts.
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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Anonymous
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#758537 - 07/19/02 07:07 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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Dude, there's no reason to get all spiritual and crap.
Also, your hair is freakin' me out. Buy a comb.
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WhiskeyClone
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 Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
#758712 - 07/19/02 08:29 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Dude, there's no reason to get all spiritual and crap.
Also, your hair is freakin' me out. Buy a comb.
Yeah what was I thinking getting spiritual.. wrong forum for that, fuck...
And yeah my hair freaks me out too sometimes.
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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Zahid
Stranger
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#759214 - 07/19/02 12:01 PM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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CyberChump...
My parents brought me to church until I was four, but stopped when I showed no interest and only caused trouble. I considered myself an atheist for a long time, and I absolulately hated Christianity when I got into Manson NIN and other music a few years ago. What brought me into religion is a different story.
Long time child hood friend of mine is a Christian (In fact he's in a Chrisitian rock band).. so are his siblings and parents Christian. His dad is completely blind, I didn't know why for the longest time. My friend told me he tried shooting himself in the head when he was 19.. when he survived, yet without vision, he married and became a Christian. My friend never preached Chrisitianity to me throughout the years knowing him, since he sensed I wasn't going to convert.. this story probably doesn't mean much to you.. but it does for me. After this I left Chrisitianity alone and refrained from bashing it because I realized how important it was to alot of people.
Then, when I was 17 I began reading alot about Islam, and eventually became a Muslim. I wasn't all to aware of Islam until bin Laden blew up the American embassies and made a reference "God willing" in his fatwa... (mind you in 1998 I thought Islam was a multi-deity religion like Hinduism or something)...after that I educated myself about the religion and fell in love with it. I don't have a religious background.. my friends have little interest in religion and one of them gets extremely pissed off if I even utter God's name. So to say the least, I came to Islam on my own- and it was best choice I ever made because I can't remember when I felt this much at peace.
I know there is alot of evidence that points to evolution, but also understand religion (more specific, Islam) is not very clear on the subject of the creation of humans/animals. In fact, within the ummah (the world wide community of Muslims) there is alot of debate between muslims who believe evolution took place, and muslims who don't believe in evolution. Islam (I don't know about Judeo-Christian tradition, I know nothing about Judaism and little about Christianity) is vague on the subject.. the Qur'aan does talk of Adam and Eve, but also talks about "All living things evolving from water"...Islam even speaks of animals before humans, along with life forms in besides the humans (aliens) who recieved messengers from God...
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Edited by Zahid (07/19/02 12:36 PM)
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Anonymous
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#759619 - 07/19/02 04:12 PM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Yeah what was I thinking getting spiritual.. wrong forum for that, fuck...
And yeah my hair freaks me out too sometimes.
Ok, now what do we do?
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WhiskeyClone
Not here
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Posts: 16,512
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
#761301 - 07/20/02 06:41 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Ok, now what do we do?
Let's play checkers.
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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Anonymous
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#761362 - 07/20/02 07:07 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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Second one from my left front rank moves one space to the right.
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whiterastahippie
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
#761393 - 07/20/02 07:24 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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so yeah, i'm just jumping in the end here, but has anyone mentioned that the catholic church fully supports the idea of evolution?...more of a "God set it in motion": type of thing. much like islam.
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Peace and Love to all!
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whiterastahippie
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Zahid]
#761425 - 07/20/02 07:36 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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(I don't know, does it? In the 130 years of Darwinism, why hasn't it been proven yet?)
how can you prove something that takes thousands or millions of years to take place? it's just that theologist and philosophers aren't dumb shits. and neither are scientists. can't we all just get along? how about this. check out a book called, "the science of God" by gerald schroeder. or his other book, "genesis and the big bang" great stuff man, and in my personal and humble opinion, it lays the creationist/evolutionist arguement to rest by proving both sides right. seriously check it out. it blows the mind man.
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Peace and Love to all!
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Anonymous
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I would reccomend both books as well. Very interesting reading.
Nice suggestion. 
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francisco
Richman Sporeman
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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ArisEve]
#762033 - 07/20/02 11:04 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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LOVE LoVe Evol Huh maybe there's a pattern here?
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Well...Maybe just a little.
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