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The Idea of Evolution is BS
    #746849 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746863 -

Dude, you've found yourself in a very dark, dank, intellectual alleyway and you're all alone. Somebuddy git 'em, I've done this way too much in church youth groups growing up.


--------------------
"Hallucinogens can be like talking to a really talented salesman: beware of what you can sell yourself." - J.L.C.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: erectronik]
    #746866 -

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746876 -

If humans are an evolved species that originated as monkeys, why are there still tons of monkeys?
I dunno. Maybe becuase humans are not in direct compitition with "monkeys" You mean apes right?

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746879 -

Why are there no monkeys even closely resembling humans? In other words, one would think that there would be some species in mid-evolution or at the cycle of almost human, having attributes that are almost identical to the human model. Yet there are none, despite dna comparisons and things here and there that are too vague too accept. I'm talking about blatant, obvious attributes.
There were some other homos, such as homo erectus that have died out, but there is evidence of.
Blatant obvious attributes? How about a snake having a pelvic bone. Obviously in the course of evelution, the snake lost it's legs but kept this extra bone.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: erectronik]
    #746882 -

(I can't help it)

Are you familiar with the archeopteryx?
A creature God decided to let go extinct, in his mysterious way, and which was as close to being smack dab in the middle of reptile and bird as we're gonna find.
Why did it go extinct? Biological evolution would tell us that random differences occuring in very, very tiny steps, (very, very tiny), over a long, long time produced something that had the beneficial, adaptive characteristics of the archeopteryx, but in a more efficient form, thus competing with it in its own territory, the air, and "beating" it, so to speak. By "beating", I mean getting all the food, mates, etc. If you can't survive, you can't survive to reproduce and spread your genes, thus you go extinct. Not so mysterious, is it?

The same thing happened with early hominids and modern humans.

Chimps don't count because they're too primitive to even compete with us. They are animals and have an animal's niche on earth.
We won! That's why there's no cavemen hanging around, coming on talk-shows with scientists to prove evolution right.

Although I do believe some may be unfrozen and made to be lawyers...


--------------------
"Hallucinogens can be like talking to a really talented salesman: beware of what you can sell yourself." - J.L.C.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #746883 -

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746886 -

How do you explain the statistical possibility of an ecosystem with thousands of different species coexisting as long as we have, without Someone getting all of this started at some point? In other words, don't you agree that all of this is quite contrived and setup?

No. With these many different species, each has found a unique way to survive... unless two or more species comes into compition with each other (either dicrect or indirect) the species is not going to dwindle. Then the species are going to adapt to different enviornments, and come less and less in competion with each other. This creates diversity, many organisms can survive with each other and depend on each other... This is how you get your many creatures coexisting. Nature find it's own balance through unique mechanisms.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #746887 -

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746889 -

>>How about a snake having a pelvic bone. Obviously in the course of evelution, the snake lost it's legs but kept this extra bone.
>Are you serious??
Yes, now are we going to have a discussion, or bullshit one-line retorts?

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: erectronik]
    #746892 -

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #746893 -

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #746897 -

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746899 -

Erectronik, I don't think that is a parallel argument. Just because one species dominates another (or all) should not mean that species would not continue to evolve and go through various stages of evolution, if in fact evolution were true.

I said that the one who is being dominated is not surviving, thus they die. No more evolving. More and more death, and less and less birth, over time. Your answer was to a non-parallel argument, which I wasn't having. I explained evolution to you, and you didn't even thank me. Geez.


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"Hallucinogens can be like talking to a really talented salesman: beware of what you can sell yourself." - J.L.C.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746900 -

It's true. Snakes have pelvic bones.

Also, if you look at skeletons from the past from such species as Homo erectus, Australopethicus (Lucy found in Etheopia, I think) and such.. you can see the change of bone structure throughout time. From the first known human (which VREY closely resembles a monkey) to us, now. It's obvious.. 


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD"
--
JaP: What would this place be without random sluts?
JaP: Nothing, I tell you.

:heart: :todcasil: :heart:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: erectronik]
    #746901 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746905 -

think about the answers you got here today, really. I think they should give you some trouble, which is good. There are plenty of devout christians who accept evolution as true. I don't know who's been telling you what (I've heard ideas like "where's the middle-men" arguement, etc, before) , but think for yourself, and if you still agree with those others after thinking through, then so be it.

One last thought:
God is all powerful, right?
And he "works in mysterious ways" that we as humans cannot understand or explain fully, so,
Why shouldn't God be allowed to use evolution as his creative force. Shit, he's God!


--------------------
"Hallucinogens can be like talking to a really talented salesman: beware of what you can sell yourself." - J.L.C.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: erectronik]
    #746908 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746910 -

So what do you think happened ? why are we here? whether you believe God made this energy and matter all within a few days (what is a day to God?) or whether you think it's like a project that has taken a bit longer(billions of years) with laws and rules that determine what will happen next. It's all the same to me in a spiritual sense. There still remains a mysterious force within everything invisible for the most part. I guess my point is what you believe happened in the past doesn't change what is right now.
History does not repeat itself.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746915 -

First, I would like to say that I am a scientist and I do believe in the theory of evolution. This does not, however, mean that I do not believe in a God, or Supreme Being. Many scientists who believe in the theory of evolution are also devout religious people.
Second, I would like to say that before you say something like "the idea of evolution is BS," you should really learn more about what you are talking about. I will do my best to enlighten you on Darwin's theories.

Darwin's theory of evolution is now over 130 years old. Darwinism encompasses several different, although mutually compatible, theories. Many respectable scientists argue that Darwinism should be viewed as five major theories. These five theories have somewhat different origins and different fates and cannot be discussed accurately as if they were only a single statement.
The theories are:
1. Perpetual change
2. Common descent
3. Multiplication of species
4. Gradualism
5. Natural selection

The first three theories are genearlly accepted as having universal application throughout the living world. The theories of gradualism and natural selection are controversial among evolutionists. Gradualism and natural selection are clearly part of the evolutionary process, but they might not be as pervasive as Darwin thought. Legitimate controversies regarding gradualism and nautral selection often are misrepresented by creationists as challenges to the first three theories, whose validity is strongly supported by all relevant facts.

1. Perpetual Change. This is a basic theory of evolution on which the others are based. It states that the living world is neither constant nor perpetually cycling, but is always changing. The properties of organisms undergo modification across generations throughout time. Perpetual change is documented by the fossil record, which clearly refutes creationists' claims for a recent origin of all living forms. Because it has withstood repeated testing and is supported by an overwhelming number of observations (fossil records, etc.), we now regard perpetual change as a scientific fact.

2. Common Descent. The second Darwinian theory, common descent, states that all forms of life descended from a common ancestor through a branching of lineages. The opposing argument, that the different forms of life arose independently and descended to the present in linear, unbrached genealogies, has been refuted by comparative studies of organismal form, cell structure, and macromolecular structures (including those of the genetic material, DNA). All of these studies confirm the theory that life's history has the structure of a branching evolutionary tree. Species that share relatively recent common ancestry have more similar features at all levels than do species that have only an ancient common ancestry.

3. Multiplication of Species. Darwin's third theory states that the evolutionary process produces new species by the splitting and transformation of older ones. Species are now generally viewed as reproductively distinct populations of organisms that usually but not always differ from each other in organismal form. Once species are fully formed, interbreeding does not occur among members of different species. Evolutionsists generally agree that the splitting and transformation of lineages produce new species, although much controversy remains concerning the details of this process and the precise meaning of the term "species".

4. Gradualism. Darwin's theory of gradualism states that the large differences in anatomical traits that characterize different species originate by accumulation of many small incremental changes over very long periods of time. This theory opposes the notion that large anatomical differences arise by sudden genetic changes. This theory is important because genetic changes having very large effects on the organism are nonethless sufficiently beneficial to be favored by natural selection. Therefore, although gradual evolution is known to occur, it may not explain the origin of all structural differences that we observe among species.

5. Natural selection. Natural selection explains why organisms are constructed to meet the demands of their environments, a phenomenon called adaptation. This theory describes a natural process by which populations accumulate favorable characteristics throughout long periods of evolutionary time. Adaptation was viewed previously as strong evidence against evolution. Darwin's theory of natural selection was therefore important for convincing people that a natural process, capable of being studied scientifically, could produce new adaptations and new species. Demonstration that natural processes could produce adaptation was important to the eventual acceptance of all five Darwinian theories. Darwin developed his theory of natural selection as a series of five observations and three inferences from them:

Observation 1: Organisms have great potential fertility.
Observation 2: Natural populations normally remain constant in size, except for minor fluxuations.
Observation 3: Natural resources are limited.
Inference 1- There exists a continuing struggle for existence among members of a population.
Observation 4: All organisms show variation.
Observation 5: Variation is heritable.
Inference 2- There is differential survival and reproduction among varying organisms in a population.
Inference 3: Over many generations, differentieal survival and reproduction generate new adaptations and new species.

In summary, the fact that these theories have been around for over 130 years and are continuing to be validated and confirmed by new technology and observations, I believe, is proof enough that the statement "the idea of evolution is BS" is not only ignorant, but false.
At the same time, evolution does not discount the idea of a God or Supreme Being. In the second part of Darwin's theory, "common descent," he propsed that all plants and animals have descended from "some one form into which life was first breathed." Thus, believing in evolution does not mean you do not believe in God.

-RebelSteve


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Namaste.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ctsbgx]
    #746916 -

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746921 -

I think the fact of the matter is that everyone has their own opinion. It might change over time and through extensive scientific research and the like, but the fact still remains that we all have the ability to think our own thoughts. Wether evolution is in fact what happened and how we came to be is a result of that, or wether Genesis is how we came about really doesn't matter. The point is we are here now and life shouldn't be spent arguing over things in which no one has the answer.

That's just my opinion, feel free to tell me how stupid I am and that I have a major inability to create coherent sentences.

[EDIT: I can't spell at 4:20am].


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD"
--
JaP: What would this place be without random sluts?
JaP: Nothing, I tell you.

:heart: :todcasil: :heart:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #746922 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746923 -

Such kind words coming from a good fellow like yourself, to a good fellow like Steve.

I salute you! *salute*


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD"
--
JaP: What would this place be without random sluts?
JaP: Nothing, I tell you.

:heart: :todcasil: :heart:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Acidic_Sloth]
    #746924 -

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746926 -

Concerning the snake having a pelvic bone:

Yes, this is true and documented by scientific fact. It is proof of the concept of homolgy, which Darwin recognized as the major source of evicdence for his theory of common descent.
The term homolgy denotes "the same organ in different organisms under every variety of form and function." The classic example of homology is the limb skeleton of vertebrates. The bones of the vertebrate limb maintain characteristic structures and patterns of connection despite diverse modifications for different functions in different species of animals.
This means that the limbs of a human, frog, bat, dolphin, and horse all show very similar characteristics even though they are used for completely different functions. According to Darwin's theory of common descent, the structures that we call homologies represent characteristics inherited with some modification from a corresponding feature in a common ancestor.


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Namaste.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Acidic_Sloth]
    #746927 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746928 -

> Arguing, when it's good-hearted, is healthy though.

I agree, but some people might not see it that way. Meh.. I dunno what I'm trying to say. It's 4:12am and I haven't slept so I'm just sort of babbling.

PS: The name is "Acidic_Sloth". But you can call me A_S.


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD"
--
JaP: What would this place be without random sluts?
JaP: Nothing, I tell you.

:heart: :todcasil: :heart:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #746929 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Acidic_Sloth]
    #746932 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746933 -

No shit.


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD"
--
JaP: What would this place be without random sluts?
JaP: Nothing, I tell you.

:heart: :todcasil: :heart:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746934 -

Thank you for your compliment, enter It did take me a while to type all of that up, and I am glad you will look over it and use it to "keep your engine burning." I understand the reasoning for the title of the thread as well

One thing though... You should never say never

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #746936 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746938 -

> Lord is indeed in existence, there is none beside Him

What i want to know is how can you be so sure that "God" is a "he". Is there proof?

I believe that there is, indeed a higher power, but it may not be something such a God. God may just be a name they call this 'higher power' in means to be able to indentify with it. I believe the Earth has it's own energy, and that that energy may be this 'higher power'. Things like Mother Nature and the like. All things have their own energy and they MAY contribute to that higher power.. am I making ANY sense? (I could go on for days, but I'll spare you the agony of it).

Anyway, those are my beliefs at least. I'm not asking you to agree with them, just that you take them into consideration.

And you REALLY shouldn't say "never". Things change, your beliefs might change one day as well. You can't say for sure if it is what you will ALWAYS believe in.


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD"
--
JaP: What would this place be without random sluts?
JaP: Nothing, I tell you.

:heart: :todcasil: :heart:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Acidic_Sloth]
    #746939 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Acidic_Sloth]
    #746940 -

Of course there is no proof of god. It was invented... out of trying to explain higher powers or not that is to be argued. Everyone should have there own idea, or choose not to have an idea at all.

enter: do you think you would have come to the same conclusion about "god" if it weren't for your relatives/freinds?

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746941 -

Just a thought, but you asked for evidence about evolution, however I haven't seen any concrete evidence about the existance of God.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #746944 -

> Lord is indeed in existence, there is none beside Him

Like I said, babe.. it's just what I believe.

> Everyone should have there own idea, or choose not to have an idea at all.

I totally agree. In fact, I think I said something about that in an earlier post.  


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD"
--
JaP: What would this place be without random sluts?
JaP: Nothing, I tell you.

:heart: :todcasil: :heart:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Sheepish]
    #746946 -

I was kinda pissed that he sent me on a hunt to find proof of snake pelvic bones while the otheres debated... But if I were to ask him to show some proof, he would just have said something like, "I can't, and that in itself is proof enough" or something.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #746948 -

I would have expected that as an answer as well.

But Hermity.. you can't hold all beliefs as false, they may in fact be proven later. So keep an open mind.


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD"
--
JaP: What would this place be without random sluts?
JaP: Nothing, I tell you.

:heart: :todcasil: :heart:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Acidic_Sloth]
    #746950 -

I don't hold all beliefs as false... In fact, it never would have crossed my mind to question my own original christian faith if it weren't for the irregularities and contraditions I encountered.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #746952 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746953 -

Steve, do you believe that there may be a parallel between this finding and Genesis 3:14?

Hmm... This is hard to say.
Genesis 3:14 seems to imply that the snake did once have legs, although it doesn't state that directly. However, my personal belief is that this is just a myth trying to explain why the snake doesn't have legs and why it is a feared enemy of humans, much like Native American myths that explain why crows are black for example.
This, I know you don't agree with b/c of your post in which you say you believe the Bible is a documentation of historical fact, but I am just giving you my personal thoughts because you asked for them


--------------------
Namaste.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #746955 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #746957 -

> I don't hold all beliefs as false...

I didn't mean it that way.. but it might have sounded like that was what I was implying. Sorry, dear.

> In fact, it never would have crossed my mind to question my own original christian faith if it weren't for the irregularities and contraditions I encountered.

I've never been REALLY religious, but there was a time when I believed that God existed and that he created the earth and all it's beings. I too encountered those irregularities and contradictions you spoke of and that is what made me question what REALLY was going on.

I love you Hermity. 


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD"
--
JaP: What would this place be without random sluts?
JaP: Nothing, I tell you.

:heart: :todcasil: :heart:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746960 -

Remember.. this is a "friendly" arguments, so don't get your panties in a tiwst, love.


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD"
--
JaP: What would this place be without random sluts?
JaP: Nothing, I tell you.

:heart: :todcasil: :heart:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746962 -

Why are there no monkeys even closely resembling humans?

Because we killed them all. Sad but true.

And by the way, humans didn't evolve from monkeys. Monkeys and humans have a common ancestor. We killed that one, too.

Apart from that, the theory of evolution is indeed bullshit, though not because of the things you pointed out. I highly recommend "Darwin's black box" by Michael Behe. The problem with evolution is at the biochemistry level.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Nomad]
    #746963 -

Leave it to the biochemists to muck something up

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Acidic_Sloth]
    #746966 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #746968 -

Good.

SH: Yeah.. leave it to the bloody biochemists.. they're Nazis I tell you, NAZIS! They're racist against monkeys! 


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD"
--
JaP: What would this place be without random sluts?
JaP: Nothing, I tell you.

:heart: :todcasil: :heart:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Nomad]
    #746971 -

You mind doing us the luxury of an example arguement of Behe's, Nomad?
I'm damn interested.


--------------------
"Hallucinogens can be like talking to a really talented salesman: beware of what you can sell yourself." - J.L.C.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: erectronik]
    #746973 -

Yeah.. I'm damn interested too.


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD"
--
JaP: What would this place be without random sluts?
JaP: Nothing, I tell you.

:heart: :todcasil: :heart:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Acidic_Sloth]
    #747018 -

go and read up on the pandas thumb by stephen jay gould... its just an article.. prob on google or somethin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: erectronik]
    #747021 -

I don't think the idea of evolution is BS at all. I beleive in Timothy Leary's eithfold model of consciousness. It just seems to make sense when I read it.

Edited by Earth_Droid (07/15/02 02:20 AM)

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #747070 -

Enter, this will help you:

Evolution is a fraud.

Enjoy!

The rebuttal against the so-called "29 proofs for evolution" is GREAT!

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #747093 -

Enter, I've always liked you cause you're probably the only person here who can reply politely and thoughtfully when someone gives you shit (and I was impressed with the way you ignored me completely when I bit your head off after you suggested removing the Ethnobot forum ) but this thread is a shocker...from the top (even tho most of it's already been covered):

1. If humans are an evolved species that originated as monkeys, why are there still tons of monkeys?

Monkeys are just as evolved in their way as we are in ours...we share a common ancestor with them.

2. Why are there no monkeys even closely resembling humans? In other words, one would think that there would be some species in mid-evolution or at the cycle of almost human, having attributes that are almost identical to the human model.

We don't see the missing link walking around cause we replaced him!

Yet there are none, despite dna comparisons and things here and there that are too vague too accept. I'm talking about blatant, obvious attributes.

97% (or thereabouts) genetic similarity (to modern chimps) is too vague to accept!? How could that possibly be explained if we're totally unrelated?

3. How do you explain the statistical possibility of an ecosystem with thousands of different species coexisting as long as we have, without Someone getting all of this started at some point? In other words, don't you agree that all of this is quite contrived and setup?

Whether or not someone set it all up is another argument. You actually come pretty close to describing evolution in that paragraph...species co-exist so long as there is an opportunity to do so, a niche for them to fill. We shouldn't be at all surprised by the flawlessness of the ecosystem...we weren't around to see the mistakes!

Evolution is an inescapable fact of everyday life. When we develop stronger antibiotics, it's because we're dealing with stronger strains of bacteria that weren't around before. If you'd titled this thread "Natural Selection Alone is Not Enough to Account for Biological Evolution" then you would have had a much stronger argument than this Sunday school stuff.

If God used evolution, then so be it. I must accept truth

Excellent attitude...

I will never accept evolution though. Never

oh dear...

I've never understood why Christians cry so foul over evolution. Genesis does state that the animals came first, doesn't it?

deepr: I don't get the Panda's thumb thing...wasn't that something to do with a "half-arsed" evolutionary trait, like the "thumb" isn't really a thumb at all, just a sort of compromise between one function and another?

Edited by Pynchon (07/15/02 03:52 AM)

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #747147 -

Earth rotation did not occur to writers of Genesis. The sun rolled along the sky, like a scarabaeus beetle rolling its eggs in a ball of dung.

It is unlikely that historical Moshe wrote Genesis, let alone the entire Torah. Of course this is just one currently prevailing belief based on significantly different literary styles.

" Jesus also seems to have accepted the theory of Mosaic authorship of the Torah (Mark 7:10; 10:3; Luke 5:14)....Yet in the Torah there are two creation stories that vary in detail and contradict each other in order (Gen. 1:1-2:4 and Gen. 2:5ff). These stories cannot be harmonized. Poor Moses contradicted himself radically in the first two chapters of the Torah. He also seemed not to know the nationality of the people to whom Joseph's brothers sold Joseph, who took him down to Egypt. In one version it was the Ishmaelites (Gen. 37:25), and in another version it was the Midianites (Gen. 37:28). They are not the same. Moses, as a single author, seems to have been quite confused....If this were not enough, there are three separate and distinct versions of the Ten Commandments in the Torah that cannot be reconciled (Exodus 20, Exodus 34, and Deuteronomy 5."

-From 'Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism' by [who else?] John Shelby Spong

What is one to do? One is forced by the shear number of inconsistencies to see the Scriptures in the light in which it was intended - as midrash - stories told in order to impart spiritual truth. It is weird beyond weird that intelligent people can distill meanings from fables, from folktails, and even from someone else's religious scriptures, but not from one's own scriptures. Faith is not the suspension of common sense. IMHO.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #747172 -

Why challenge unless you're prepared for answers? You'll have to read, like 'In the Footsteps of Eve,' or 'The Seven Daughters of Eve." Did you know, for example, that ALL European (non Asian, non African) descended people have DNA that can be traced to one of seven women? That these women have been given names, and that for a fee your own DNA can be tested and you can be told who your own specific paleolithic Great Grandmother was?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #747183 -

Hello enter. You heard from a biochemist on the subject. Now it's time for moi (an amature archeologist, who has participated in field excavations) to weigh in.

Y'see, the Genesis Creation story isn't the original. It's a cultural borrowing from the much older Sumerian creation mythos. 5000 years ago, the Sumerians wrote down their story (in cuneform, on clay tablets) of how things came to be. The Genesis account, which is obviously from a later date, follows the order of the Sumerian tale event by event.

If this was the only case of cultural borrowing...but it isn't. The whole Noah's Flood is also a direct crib of the Sumerian flood mythos, which can be found in the Epic of Gilgamesh. That's the world's oldest writen story, and it's likely based on even more ancient oral traditions. Traditions that quite probably trace back to the flooding of the then freshwater Black Sea aprox 10,000 years ago, when rising sea levals caused an inflow of salt water into the Black Sea basin. This caused the Sea to expand massively (at the rate of several miles per year), and so submerged the coastal plains surrounding the Sea. Any human population in the region (and evidence is good for that human population) would have fled. And told the tale of the flooding to their descendents for generations to come.

Now take a guess where the Sumerians originated? Answer...north of the Mesopotanian region (the place to which the Sumerians migrated, and built the first true cities), up in the mountains at the east end of the Black Sea. Excellent chance at least some of the ancestors of the Sumerians were peoples who themselves experienced the Black Sea flooding. And the reason for the Sumerian Flood mythos. A mythos that got passed down to other peoples, from the first advanced urban civilization in the region (and unless somebody finds substantial evidence for an earlier one, the first urban centered civilization in the world).

Hate to break it to you, but the Bible is full of thingies like this. There is accurate history embedded in the stories, but there's also myth and myth creation. For instance, the Walls of Jericho and the all-fall-down bit. It is true that Jericho's walls were collapsed. Only problem is...it happened more then a thousand years BEFORE any hypothetical invasion of the 12 Tribes into the lands of the Canannites.

So what likely happened, is that the Hebrew tribes had a ruin in their back yard, and earlier tales of the destruction of the city of Jericho. They proceeded to update the story, and wrote themselves into the picture as a way of laying claim to the land. It's a common thing across the world, where successor populations and peoples adopt and adapt the tales and mythos of preceeding cultures and peoples (especially when the successors at least in part absorb the the original population).

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #747187 -

Thanks for that nicely conceived outline.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Pynchon]
    #747215 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: erectronik]
    #747237 -

You mind doing us the luxury of an example arguement of Behe's, Nomad?

All of his arguments are based on the notion of irreducibly complex systems.
An example for this would be a mouse trap... you cannot take a piece of wood,
catch some mice, add a spring, catch some more mice, add a piece of metal...
you either have a mouse trap, or you got nothing at all. Thus, a mouse trap
cannot evolve in the biological sense. If a cat had mouse traps instead of
claws, this would be a damn good argument against evolution.

Now, at the biochemical level, we are full of mouse traps. The bacterial
flagellum is one of them:

http://www.id.ucsb.edu/fscf/library/origins/graphics-captions/flagellum.html


This is not an argument in favor of god or whatever. It means that
life has been designed. No need for any wild speculations... just another
thing to add to the list of strange things in a strange universe.


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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #747341 -

Why cannot Creation and Evolution exist side by side?

If an omnipotent and omniscienct being such as God would create the Earth and the Human Race, why would he leave no room for improvement?

Are you saying the human race is perfect right now as it is?

Evolution is the process of change to better suit one to its environment.

We didn't have to evolve from monkeys for the idea of evolution to exist.

Think about it

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Nomad]
    #747374 -

It means that life has been designed.
Some would argue this design was performed via the process of evolution. According to this theory, the complex systems that we observe in nature today evolved over a period of more than 3.5 billion years (the oldest microfossils are about 3.5 billion years old), this can hardly be compared to building a mouse trap in a day (or a week). It is only preconceptions, religious prejudice and/or mindsets which utilize anthropomorphic models of nature that lead people to believe that evolution of complex systems could not have occured.

Edited by Evolving (07/15/02 06:59 AM)

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #747393 -

http://www.talkorigins.org/


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
    #747402 -

Why cannot Creation and Evolution exist side by side?

...an omnipotent and omniscienct being such as God would create the Earth and the Human Race...

Indeed, why not? I spent my whole life from kindergarten to 12th grade in Catholic schools and not one of my instructors ever expressed the idea that evolution goes against a Christian belief in God. As a matter of fact, they acknowledged that the old testament was written for an ignorant, illiterate stone age people and ideas had to be presented in a form that they could relate to. This does not detract from the underlying spirituality and mystery of their religion. Many of them personally thought it increased the wonder and beauty that they saw in God's creation.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
    #747406 -

evolving- I hate telling you that you're wasting your time as an intelligent person by thinking that you may elicit a positive response to your post. Enter has already shown us that s/he is close-minded. Since that is the case, s/he is doing nothing but trolling.


I should change my sig. to read something like "I don't deal with closed minds."


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #747431 -

Humanity was seeded from another planet.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Sclorch]
    #747440 -

Sclorch, I hope that not everyone is as closed minded as enter. Perhaps I can prompt someone else other than the fundamentalists to see things from a different perspective. But I do see your point.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Sclorch]
    #747527 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #747531 -

What sort of theory do you suppose should take evolutions place? That some GOD created all the animal species we see today? Give me a break!

1. Because those other monkeys also proved to be viable variations (like us) on our common anchestors.

2. There was, but they died in competition with us. Do a search for "Cro Magnon".

3. Come on, the theory of God is just as unproven as the theory of Santa Claus. Nobody contrieved or "setup" the complex ecosystem we see today. If there is a nice (or one is created by chance) then animals will evolve to fill that nice. And there is a lot of ways to survive in nature even thoug you may be a small tubeworm living in boiling water at the bottom of the ocean or you are a small virus carried in the bloodstream of some of the higher evolved monkeys. since there is a lot of nices to be filled there has also evolved an abundance of creatures to fill those.

But we can go on and on with this argument and get nowhere, unless you have some wonderful new theory to take the current dominating theories place.




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Things can only get better from now on!

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #747538 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
    #747600 -

According to this theory, the complex systems that we observe in nature today evolved over a period of more than 3.5 billion years (the oldest microfossils are about 3.5 billion years old), this can hardly be compared to building a mouse trap in a day (or a week).

Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't make my statement clear enough. I'm not arguing about the evolution from bacteria to humans which may well be possible.

I'm arguing about the very foundations of life. Where did the microfossils 3.5 billion years ago come from? We have never witnessed the formation of a cell out of amino acids, although there have been hundreds of experiments simulating the early days. The branch of science which is closest to actually producing a working cell is not chemistry, it is nanotechnology. Just half a year ago nanotechnologists built a transport mechanism for microscopic devices, somewhat similar to the flagellum of bacteria. Did you check out the link? The foundations of life are shaky, and I'm not making this up. Francis Crick, the scientist who discovered DNA, believes that aliens have seeded live on earth.




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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #747616 -

There's one itty bitty problem with your idea ther, enter. Go out at night, take a look up at the stars. Get yourself a half way decent telescope or even a strong set of binoculars. Get somebody to line up on M33 in Andromeda. That speck of light you'll be staring at is the next nearest galaxy to the one our sun is found in, the Milky Way. It's more then 3 million light years away. A light year is the disrance light will travel in one Earth year (iow, 365 days).

What that means is, the light you'll be seeing was radiated from the M33 galaxy over 3 million years ago, and spent the time in transit to the vacinity of Earth, your telesscope, and hence your eyes. Boils down to this...every time you look at the stars, you're looking into a sort of time machine. Because you're seeing them as they were, not as they are today. The light shed by them today won't reach us for in many cases EXTREMELY long periods of time.

M33 is, as I said, the closest galaaxy to our own. With the Hubble Telescope, we've observed images tremendously farther away (nd therefore images tremendously further into the past).

Light speed is a universal constent, and in a vacumn will NOT speed up. That's bascic Theory of Relativity, although this particular has been scientifically proven to be a fact. Light can't be made to exceed the speed at which it travels, even if you burned the entire galaxy and put the energy into pushing one single photon.

The only dodge around this from a creationist point of view, would to claim that God created the entire universe in one instant, with the light ALL READY IN TRANSIT.

Two problems with this. One is with the physics, the other is theological

If the entire universe WAS a recent (as in less then 10,000 years old) construct, why would astronemers be able to observe protostars that are in the early stages of stellar formation? We've got tons of images of this very thing.

Secound is the theological, and it ties in toi the emages we have of an evolving universe that surrounds us. God couldn't or wouldn't make a perfect work of the creation, so that the only conclusions we'd draw from our research would be inclined to be wrong... because God made it LOOK like the universe was 13 billion years old? What kinda of an egomaniac is this deity supposed to be? Hmmm?

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #747620 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #747631 -

Hours are never mentioned in Genesis.
A day to the creator, in my opinion is "his time", not our measurement. Any numbskull who suggests, as most creationist do, that the earth is merely 6000 years old, is an idiot!
The corruptness (both in translation and content),of the Judeao / Christian bible, is enough to deter myself from "belonging" to any sect.
There was a famous saying, by I forget whom, that any teaching that would shock a child's mind, cannot be a true religion.
I could never explain to a child a need for a "God", to have a father asked to sacrifice his only child to prove his devotion as Abraham was asked. It's just plain sick! Any thoughts, oh great believing ones?

Bullfrog1


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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
    #747645 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Nomad]
    #747650 -

this can hardly be compared to building a mouse trap in a day (or a week).

Time wouldn't matter. Genetic evolution could not give you a mouse trap in ten billion years. A mutation with no benefit would not stick around long enough for another mutation to happen, which would still give you no benefit, until a third mutation happens which gives you a mouse trap. Similar with other irreducibly complex systems. It just doesn't work. If you knew of a way to achieve, say, the blood clotting mechanism (another example by Behe) by evolution, you would make a lot of biochemists happy.



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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Bullfrog1]
    #747651 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Nomad]
    #747749 -

The foundations of life are shaky...
I wouldn't use the term 'shaky,' I would use the term 'unknown.' We humans are really quite ignorant of the many things that happen on our planet even in the dawn of this information age. Our ideas about the true nature of the environment and processes involved at the time of the dawn of life on earth are conjecture at best.


Francis Crick, the scientist who discovered DNA, believes that aliens have seeded live on earth.
This of course begs the question of how this hypothetical alien life arose.


I admit profound ignorance about how life arose in the universe, however I do not consider this to be an argument for any particular opinion on the matter (which is the opposite approach of most, if not all religions). It is best to admit our ignorance and not allow it to be used as an excuse to blindly believe the mythologies and follow the dogma of a stone age society (I do understand that you were not advocating this). As attractive and convienient as the concept of intelligent design is, it is still conjecture and can be construed as imposing human attributes on as of yet unknown aspects of nature (this is not to say that it won't ultimately be proven out). I found the link you provided fascinating (as is usual for me with the science of biology) and thought provoking, thank you.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #747850 -

Of course the "Light" still exists if God 'emanated it. The Light is the Logos. God eternally "begets" the Logos. Not once in time, but eternally. The Logos is the Son [of God] in Christian theology, and the Son or Logos or Second Hypostasis is THAT aspect of the Transcendent God [Father] from which creation comes forth. Prior to this, Genesis speaks of the Spirit [Hebrew: Ruach] of God "hovering over the waters." The word for God in the Hebrew is "Elohim," which is plural. In fact it suggests not polytheism, but is a basis for much later Trinitarian thought. So right here you have the whole notion of God [Father], His Light/logos [Son], and the Spirit [Holy Spirit].

Now, the author of this scroll was not Christian, and was clearly a Hebrew monotheist, but that Name Elohim is one which indicates plurality, so the ONE true God is not merely an infinite sea of grey tapioca, but represented in just a word that embodies a transpersonal (in modern language) Reality. The Heavenly Messengers are frequently more descriptive, like the Ophanim - the eye-ball covered wheels-within-wheels. Now, for a second, please suspend a material and literal interpretation, but entertain a 'concept' of a 'Being' that can see omnidirectionally simultaneously. Picture two wheels, with the plane of one geometrically perpendicular to the other. The wheels are covered with eyes, and they rotate. It is a symbol of omniscience - not a nightmare, surrealistic set of metaphysical hoola-hoops.

The problem is confounding physical and metaphysical. The Divine "Fiat Lux!," Let There Be Light is a mythological rendering of the same Reality as the cosmological Big Bang. "Water" is not H20, it is the primordial potentia. Ancients thought primordial chaos, awaited the Word of God to give it form. This, however, was 'creation ex hilo,' creation out of nothing [no thing], but from the very Mind [Logos] of God. The 'doorway' from Logos to universe was (apparently) a singularity - a voiding of God's Nature, by God, to create space-time in a physical dimension.

Genesis is true - mythologically speaking. It speaks in the language of myth to depict creation. Mythology and religion offer answers to 'why?' Cosmology (and science in general) address the question 'how?' Creation IS here, one can choose the language game or model with which to discuss it, but let's not get the models confused. And you my friend, are in the 21st century, stuck in a pre-Copernican flat Earth universe, in which the Earth is the very center of the universe. This very idea parallels the infancy of mankind's development, wherein each infant acts as though [s]he is the very center of the universe - a primal ego. Our sun, Sol, is a relatively new star, but it is the parent of this planet. You simply do not grasp that the Bible is not a scientific document, but a mythological one. Genesis is true mythologically, but clearly not true scientifically.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #747896 -

why don't you stop trying to disprove a scientific theory (yr not even a scientist) and start trying to prove your own suppositions. of course, you might want to learn to spell first...do you not know the difference between "way" and "weigh"? you don't "way your options" and you can't "follow the weigh of the warrior". these type of errors litter yr gibbering self gratifying quasi-philosophy. the only interesting things said on this thread have been by the evolutionists..and nomad... you need to go read some damn books before you come hopping on the internet and saying "evolution is BS!". also, your noble attitude...yr posing as a seeker of truth..acting like you have all the answers ... is a pathetic shtick. have you ever eaten mushrooms? i don't see how you could still be such a dullard.

Edited by vaporbrains (07/15/02 10:23 AM)

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
    #747910 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #747970 -

Why it is true that monkeys genetic makup is nearly 99percent exactly like ours, dna is a highly advanced structure and that 1 percent different obviously made a big difference. But one way of backing up the part of why monkeys are still alive while so are we. Reptiles date back to the time of dinosaurs, before even cavemen, and they are still in existance today. Some hardly evolving and to this day are almost exactly like they were in that era. As for how we came about. Primitive man that existed 5000 years ago have been carbon dated. All humans originated from Africa and explored the rest of the globe when the world was still Pangea. This is a accepted way of looking at things when you look back at Africans culture. Quite primitive to todays standards and some of the extroverted tribes still follow and live by their ancestral ways of life. Many found body hair to be unsanitary and they shaved it all off.. That could be another reason why we dont resemble monkeys. But if you look at the monkey. They can learn and understand and show emotion. And their hands look much like ours. And if we didnt evolve. How did all the stuff thats on the world get here now, before us, then all of a sudden "God" created us, while all this existed before our time. Noah, and everything before this makes no sence. Because of the creatures that existed on this planet way before our time. "God" obviously didnt just step in to a pre existing world and decide to put humans on a planet with already hundreds to thousands of species already existing.


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Simple pleasures in life are only to momentarily distract you from the obviousness of lifes reality...

-ArisEve


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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ArisEve]
    #747986 -

I do also have a concept that I believe that holds to be true. Life holds stages each involving a more advanced race if you will. First it was the dinosaurs. They were too big and too much of a strain on the environment to survive for a long period of time. Those that could adapt to the future evolved and you had the primitive man. Then us. Whats to say in 400years if the planet still exists there wont be a "smarter human" or something that doesnt look like us at all. Maybe in 400 years when people look back on old records they wont call us primitive... You never know.


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Simple pleasures in life are only to momentarily distract you from the obviousness of lifes reality...

-ArisEve


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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ArisEve]
    #748048 -

I love God and Jesus = no evolution 'cause the bible says so, so i have to believe it
I am not super religious = of course evolution is a reality

Just read this so this dichotomy can end TRUTH CANNOT CONTRADICT TRUTH

"God" created us in HIS image. Not he in our image! Our bodies are not reality, our soul is. Our soul is modeled after God.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #748242 -

LOL!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #748303 -

Evolution is a proven fact. We can watch colonies of bacteria evolve over a matter of days. There was also a famous case study done on moths where they started out white and gradually turned black after the area was industrialized because they blend in with trees and cant be seen by birds. If you really cant find it, i will give the reference.

As far as macroscopic evolution is concerned, we can use the fossil record to see how various organisms evolved from one another. For instance, did you know that whales have the same arm and finger bones as you? They are also in the same arrangement but at slightly different proportions. These are called "homologous" structures because the organisms are related. This is opposed to "analogous" structures such as fins on whales and fish which are not related but evolved under the same conditions. Read up on it a little bit. Reading is not bad, its how you learn.


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:egyptian:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #748370 -

i read a recent article that all female DNA can be traced back to africa
anyone read this article?

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: manmoutainmurphy]
    #748409 -

for the archaelogist
I have read some information from a retired crytptologist , expert on sumerian language, whatever that is called, who notes that the babylonians had possible radio transmitters, called "me" stones. They use dto carry them on their chest. can you corroborate any of this. I am also told that the name Elizabeth, or in sumerian
El. Liz. A. Beth, means from a lizards birth.

You point about the bible stories encompassing many previous culturally myths, fables, legends is interesting. i have dabble din the story of Giglamesh. The story of jesus is said to have been found in many cultures prior to his birth: as well as continued in other cultures after his birth

Krishna of Hindostan; Buddha Sakia of india; saivahana of bermuda; osiris and Horus of Egypt; Odin of Scandinavia; Crite of chaldea; Zoroaster of persia; Baal and taut of phoenicia; Indra of tibet; Bali of Afghanistan; jao of nepal; Wittoba of Bilingonese; tammuz of Syria and Babylon; Attis of Phrygia; Xamolxis of Thrace; Zoar of the Bonzes; Adad of Assyria; Deva tat and sammonocadam of Siam; Alcides of thebes; Mikado of the Sintoos; Beddru of japan; hesus or Eros , and Bremrillahm, of the druids; thor, son of Odin, of the Gauls, cadmus of Greece; hil and feta of mandaites; gentaut and quetzacoatl of mexico; universal monarch of the Sibuls; Ischy of Formosa; divine teacher of plato; holy one of xaca; Fohi and Tien of china; Adonis, son of virgin IO, of Greece; Ixion and Quirinus of Rome; Prometheus of the caucasus and Mohammed of Mahomet of Arabia.

Additionally, The bible, th eoriginal version is noted by some to have been written by the Piso family, Pliny the Elder for most. Apparently, Christianity did not become a formal institution until 300 Ad or there abouts. Apparently, some say Constantine held a meeting of a number of presbyters and formulated the so-called original version for the bible.

Apparently, the bible has different verisons. The King James version is said to have been edited by Sir Francis bacon, som ehwo say was actually shakes peare.

Any thought sor comments on your archealogogical experience that may support some of these contentions?

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #748900 -

I agree with you. I dont believe in evolution and I believe in God creating everything. But my grandmother - who is very religious - once said 'How long is a day to God? Maybe a day to him is a billion years to us.' That would make 7 days 7 billion years. Humans did not come from monkeys! Darwin is a schmuck and I heard once he denounced his ideas before dieing. Your thoughts?

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: TeKHeAD009]
    #748922 -

tekhead...please change your icon to something other than Nikola Tesla. You degrade his image by associating it with your gibbering.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: TeKHeAD009]
    #748947 -

I highly doubt he denouced any of his findings. His evidence to his research is abundant and conclusive, and furthermore, proven. People with faith tend to shy away from the theory of evolution. But you have to understand Darwin was way ahead of his time. Those that understood him were only able to look in awe and accept his genious mind; but others looked at him as a lunitic. But then again, every era brings forth a genious it seems. And in every age he is far ahead of his time. Its only human nature to disagree with someone that is far beyond your comprehension and intelligence. Look at the painter, michalengo, or the whole idea of the earth being round. Saying the earth was round at that time of life was asking to be burned at the stake. If he denounced any of his findings, it was only to draw away controversy to his life... He was taken to court for trying to teach his ideas in school you know...


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Simple pleasures in life are only to momentarily distract you from the obviousness of lifes reality...

-ArisEve


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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ArisEve]
    #748965 -

with all due respect
darwin was part of an illuminati group
the bas eof which formed some of our 'scholarly" reasearch, that is thos etha would make up and control the US department of education, thi ssytem will only allow ceratin book and viewpoint sto be presented in school
talk about mind control.

we dont need no education...hmm who sand that?
your education is only as good as you rability to ask the question "why" if your professor take objection to this appproach your gardes will be poor and your enlightenment limited

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ArisEve]
    #748969 -

who said the earth was round?
hmm
i would venture to say that the knowledge that the earth was roundould ba s aold as 10,000 bc if not older

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
    #748984 -

correct me if i am wrong butdidnt edison steal nikosala ideas?

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: TeKHeAD009]
    #749004 -

I dont think alot of you understand that Darwin did not contribute very much to evolutionary science other than bringing it to the forefront of scientific (factual) investigation. Since many anti-evolutionists constantly talk about Darwin, you should at least know that his studies focused on adaptation and not macroscopic evolution. He conclusively proved his theory by studying the variation in beak size of finches relating to the change in climate over an extended period of time. Most studies in evolution these days are done on the molecular level because it is easier to retrace evolutionary paths this way. Some of you should really educate yourselves more and learn about the world you live in.


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:egyptian:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #749007 -

Enter, my friend -
If you read me as being "Anti-Bible," it is only further evidence that you have a problem with interpretation in general - Bible included. Fundamentalism is a materialistic philosophy of religion. Please stop rationalizing the contradictions in the Bible. They are NOT slight, they are profound and have to be dealt with. If you adopted a whole new way of regarding scriptures, you would not lose your morality, or your faith in God. Your mind would expand, and so seemingly would the universe, and you would really be able to test the limits of your faith in a universe that made sense to your senses and reason. It is Fundamentalism that sets up obsessive compulsive adherence to the written Word, more than any commandment-obsessed Orthodox Jew bent on keeping the 613 Deuteronomic commandments. Let go of your current literal interpretation, and see if God lets you sink in the turbulence of your inner and outer world, or whether he bears you up. It is not tempting the Lord, it is trusting Him, instead of trusting your intellect. The Bible is not infallible and neither are our intellects, but if God is really God, then it ought to be 'In God We Trust.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: llib]
    #749020 -

darwin was part of an illuminati group
the bas eof which formed some of our 'scholarly" reasearch, that is thos etha would make up and control the US department of education, thi ssytem will only allow ceratin book and viewpoint sto be presented in school

Whaaaaaaat? LOL!

Jesus Christ man, take off the foil helmet, put down the crack pipe and stop typing in ebonics.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: llib]
    #749025 -

Well I'm not one to argue unless I have grounds for it. But I shall bestow my knowledge to your superior understanding of the subject matter. Forgive me for I am young, and just curious. I have little understanding of most of the things in this post but the knowledge and wisdom I get from these threads and forum is astounding. I put my two sence in where I can squeeze it, but was just trying to point out a general fact that supported the theory of evolution. It is quite hard in my opinion for "God" to be able to have created everything when man was one, not the first lifeform on this earth. And 2, the Bible not mentioning anything that came before man... And since man wrote the Bible I conclude it was written for the simple reason why we as a species study it today. For you must start somewhere and must have some place to lie fate. For a wandering heart is sorrowful and can be left dissappointed. Maybe the Bible was created to ease the minds of the believers so that at least they had something to put faith in. But this is just an opinion. And those are subject to change. Beitso... Just reading this forum is vastly broadening my understanding of life and my ability to have a more rounded education. My parents dont want to believe it. But you can learn alot of things from a site that is based upon illegal material .


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Simple pleasures in life are only to momentarily distract you from the obviousness of lifes reality...

-ArisEve


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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
    #749038 -

Bah! Whadda you know.... Jackass.

I believe 100% that God created everything. I also know that their is such a thing as evolution - I just dont believe that everything started from a primordial ooze and eventuially evolved its way up to humans.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
    #749139 -

these forums are for discussion, dont say childish comments before you have researche dteh possibility that what someone says , albeit not anything you hav eevery heard may be true. I am here only to present som evarious thought, not even my discussionsa, premises and conclusions do I necessarily fully believe, at times.
before you reply,why dont you do some research into what groups supported him and whom is 'his asociations were with

the Royal society was established, soem believe , to control the vision, breadth and spiritual understaning of scientific development. The lunar society merged with the royal society. Another member of this society was benjamin franklin, ahigh level freeemason, rosicrusian. Other memebers included erasmus darwin, grandfather of charles darwin, it was he who actually wrote abook called the "zoomania in 1974 that explained the theory of evolution and teh survival of the fittest. rom this premise arose thoughts from people like Malthus, Hitler an dKissinger who used some of the darwinistic theories of survival of the fittest as premises, bases and justification for their "genocide" of the lessers. malthus once quoted " We are boun din justice and honour fromally to disclaim the right of th epoor to support. To this end, I should propose a regulation to be made declaring that no child born...should eb entitled to parish assistance...The )illegitimate" infant is, comparatively speaking, of little value to society, a sothers will immediaetly supply it splace...All children beyond what would be required to keep up the population to this "desired" level, must necessarily perish, unless room be made for them by deaths of grown persons. Charles Darwin didnt even believe in his own theory an dthsi is teh company he kept.

How is that for ebonics?

about 20 years ago i explored darwin in college

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: llib]
    #749150 -

correct year to 1794

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #749581 -

The evolution theory is just the best way to explain what happens around us. It's not possible to prove it but it will remain valid until we find an example where it fails. The theory that God created life has much bigger problems. It doesn't give answers to many questions: Who created God? What is God? Is there anything that suggests that God exists? etc.

One problem of evolution theory is how did the first life form begin.
I had an oportunity to talk with Jehovas witnesses about it. This was their argument: "If you put wood and nails in a washing machine and start it, is it possible that a chair will come out?".
It is possible. The probabilty is very low but it is not 0! You just have to repeat the experiment for many many times.

Evolution can be simulated with computers (Genetic algorithms and Artifical life: http://www.alife.org/). I saw an experiment where simple life forms emerged from chaos and they evoluted in two different life forms: herbivors and carnivores who feeded on herbivors. With stronger computers it might be possible to drive evolution up to a point where an intelligent life form will emerge.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #749614 -

Enter-

Way back on Page 1 of this thread, I posted a lot of information about Darwin's theories and findings, as he is the one who is usually credited with the theory of evolution. I thought you might be interested in some pre-Darwinian evolutionary ideas that I have notes on and just came across:

Before the eighteenth century, speculation on the origin of species rested on myth and superstition, not on anything resembling a testable scientific theory. Creation myths viewed the world as a constant entity that did not change after its creation. Nevertheless, some thinkers approached the idea that nature has a long history of perpetual and irreversible change.

Early Greek philosophers, namely Xenophanes, Empedocles, and Aristotle, developed a primitive idea of evolutionary change. They recognized fossils as evidence for a former life that they believed had been destroyed by natural catastrophe. Despite their spirit of intellectual inquiry, the Greeks failed to establish an evolutionary concept, and the issue declined well before the rise of Christianity.

The opportunity for evolutionary thinking became even more restricted as the biblical account of the earth's creation became accepted as a tenet of faith. The year 4004 B.C. was fixed by Archbishop James Ussher as the time of life's creation. Evolutionary views were considered rebellious and heretical. Still, some speculation continued. In the mid 1700's, a French naturalist named Georges Louis Buffon stressed the influence of environment on modifications of animal type. He also extended the age of the earth to 70,000 years.

The first complete explanation of evolution was authored by the French biologist Jean Baptiste de Lamarck in 1809 (the year that Darwin was born). Lamarck made the first convincing case for the idea that fossils were the remains of extinct animals. The mechanism for Lamarck's evolutionary theory, known as inheritance of acquired characteristics, was fairly simple:

It stated that organisms, by striving to meet the demands of their environments, acquire adaptations and pass them by heredity to their offspring. According to Lamarck, the giraffe evolved its long neck because its ancestors lenghtened their necks by stretching to obtain food and then passsed the lengthened neck to their offspring. Over many generations, these changes accumulated to produce the long neck of the modern giraffe.

This concept of evolution is known as transformational because it claims that individual organisms transform their appearance to produce evolution. We now reject transformational theories because genetic studies show that traits acquired by an organism during its lifetime, such as strenghtened muscles, are not inherited by its offspring. This theory would also mean that if a man lost one of his limbs during his lifetime, that trait would be passed on to his offspring. We now know that children concieved by parents who are missing a limb are born with all limbs intact. Thus, this theory is obviously false, but it was important as it led to future speculation on more correct evolutionary theories.

The next important step towards our present day theory of evolution came from the geologist Charles Lyell. He established the principle of uniformitarianism, which encompasses two important principles that guide the scientific study of the history of nature. These principles are:

1. The laws of physics and chemistry remain the same throughout the history of the earth, and

2. Past geological events occurred by natural processes similar to those that we observe in action today.

Lyell showed that natural forces, acting over long periods of time, could explain the formation of fossil-bearing rocks. Lyell's geological studies led him to conclude that the earth's age must be reckoned in millions of years. These principles were imporant for discrediting miraculous and supernatural explanations of the history of nature and replacing them with scientific explanations.

It was these theories that Darwin used to come up with his own theory of evolution, which he devloped after his infamous voyage to the Galapagos Islands on the H.M.S. Beagle, and which is now generally accepted as fact. I apologize for another lengthy post, but I merely wanted to shed some light on where this "bullshit" theory of evolution came from and hopefully open your eyes a little bit more to its validity.

I admire the way you have dealt with people who responded to your post with nothing but childish and ignorant flames. I also admire your strong beliefs, and your search for knowledge. The only thing I have to suggest to you is to not let your mind become set in thinking that "THIS is the truth and I will never believe in THAT." Keep searching, and keep an open mind! Peace,

RebelSteve




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Namaste.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: zeronio]
    #749623 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
    #749728 -

This of course begs the question of how this hypothetical alien life arose.

It could have been evolved by a process not involving irreducibly complex systems. In fact, it could be so radically different from us that we wouldn't even recognize it as life. It could be so alien that there would be no way to communicate with it or understand its motivation. I think it was Terence McKenna who pointed out that searching the universe for radio waves as a hint to intelligent life is as culture-bounded as searching the galaxy for a good italian restaurant.

So while aliens may not be a good theory to explain the origin of life, it is a valid scientific theory, as long as it does not contradict any evidence we see. Darwinian evolution, on the other hand, seems to flatly contradict the biochemical complexity of early life. I didn't even mention the cillium, which is a different way for single cells to achieve motility, not based on the flagellum. It works on a different mechanism and is built out of completely different proteins, meaning that it didn't evolve from the flagellum, nor did the flagellum evolve from the cillium. Yet the cillium, too, is irreducibly complex. Enter a theory of intelligent design.

however I do not consider this to be an argument for any particular opinion on the matter (which is the opposite approach of most, if not all religions).

I didn't state any opinion. I don't have any preference in the matter - evolution or not, it bears no implication on myself whatsoever. I don't even consider it a specific religious issue.

It is best to admit our ignorance and not allow it to be used as an excuse to blindly believe the mythologies and follow the dogma of a stone age society

I agree, but what I consider dangerous is the kind of scientific hooray-patriotism (well, kind of) related to the theory of evolution. For many people, there couldn't be ANY evidence whatsoever to disprove evolution. It just isn't treated as a theory anymore. It is a fact. If you don't recognize it, you are a religious fanatic. Yet science is all about theories and not about facts at all. When we treat theories as facts, we have lost ourself in ignorance.




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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #749751 -

There are many scientists that belive in God and there is nothing wrong with that. It's just that you won't get any useful or universal conclusions if you mix science and religion. Science is one of the rare issues that many people from all around the world agree about, because it doesn''t talk about feelings, religion and spirituality. Science won't give you salvation or something to believe in. It's just a bunch of basic facts and rules.
For example if someone comes up with a proof that theory about evolution is wrong then you won't be able to find a group of scientists that will continue to belive in it despite the facts. I think that future will prove that our current understanding of nature is oversimplified. It's like in physics where the theory of relativity has proven that the old Newton's laws are wrong (they were just a good aproximation). And these laws were basis of science for more than 300 years.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Nomad]
    #749905 -

Actually, if any alien life exists, it would probably be similar to life on earth. The carbon atom has unique abilities to form multiple bonds and that is one of the reasons that it is the basis for life. Any other life would most likely be made from ammino acids and protiens just like us. There is much evidence that the generation of life is not a rare event but a natural chemical process. Every ammino acid known has been synthesized using early earth conditions, they have also been found on meteorites.

The first "cells" that existed are thought to be aggragates of these organic molecules just like oil drops in water. The better fit "oil drops" survived and split forming two drops of equal chemical concentration. Eventually a metabolic chemical system evolved due to the advantage of reproduction and replication. Think about it for a while and it will make perfect sense.

Darwinian evolution, on the other hand, seems to flatly contradict the biochemical complexity of early life. I didn't even mention the cillium, which is a different way for single cells to achieve motility, not based on the flagellum.

That is called convergent evolution and it strongly supports evolutionary theory. It occurs when unrelated organisms evolve analogous structures due to the advantage that they get in a particular environment.

So while aliens may not be a good theory to explain the origin of life, it is a valid scientific theory, as long as it does not contradict any evidence we see.

A scientific theory is based on a testable hypothesis. This is NOT a testable hypothesis because it assumes that the existance of aliens is a fact which it is not.

"Theories are our attempts to explain facts and integrate them with over arching concepts...natural selection is the mechanism Darwin proposed to explain the historical facts of evolution." -Biology 5th ed.


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:egyptian:

Edited by Catalysis (07/16/02 04:14 AM)

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #749907 -

That was extremely well written and thought out. I admire your clarity of thought and the way it flows. You have quite a bit of knowledge of the history of the theory of evolution and it shows that you take the subject seriously.

I disagree with your conclusions however. But I find arguing or even discussing the subject a waste of our time.

As you said to enter, it is best to keep an open mind. I hope you do as well.

Former Evolutionist,

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #750403 -

more books & authors:
microcosmos (lynn margulis and dorian sagan) (mostly about the evolution of prokaryotes + bacteria)
lifetide (lyall watson) (clay as the template for organics to line up on...)
'most anything by stephen jay gould (see:punctuated equilibrium)
dear departed dr. carl sagan's books (esp. cosmos, and maybe ummm the dragons of eden, but all of his books are wonderful...)
& i dunno there's plenty more but mine mind is otherwise occupied, hehheh....


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: gnrm23]
    #750675 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Catalysis]
    #750728 -

Very true. With the right conditions life can be created quite rapidly and the rate at which they can evolve and become more complex organisms is impressive.


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Simple pleasures in life are only to momentarily distract you from the obviousness of lifes reality...

-ArisEve


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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #751088 -

1.Some monkeys were stupid and could not learn;therefore,they are still a monkey.
2.Have you not been to D.C.?
3.We havn't,the dinosaurs are dead.
Yes it is contrived,it has been setup.Who knows the mind of God,but God .


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Well...Maybe just a little.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #751237 -

Enter,
No one doubts your faith. I think that you do since you want us to argue a point that you seem unsure of. Evolution does not need your approval. Those here like myself know that it is the living word of science which HAS been proven, unlike your living word of exclusivity which deems the rest of humanity unworthy of the creator. I am no greater for my "non-belief", than you are for having yours. YOU, and other christians feel that you have this "backstage pass" with the creator, or whatever you may call him. I do not believe in "Jesus", nor do I believe in the old testament "Elohim", a crazy old sadist who doesn't have his act together.
10 commandments which preach "Thou shalt not kill", yet slaughter roughly 35,000 native people of the region, as is done throughout the beginning of your bible. It negates itself.

Bullfrog1


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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Bullfrog1]
    #751422 -

Both you and enter interpret the Bible in the exact same way - literally. The only real difference is that he chooses to believe in the writings as historically accurate, and you do not. However, enter takes a whole raft of shit, with an abundance coming from me (in PM's), and he doesn't become angry. You, however, have some anger, and could chill some. BTW, the translation of the Hebrew OT into the Greek Septuigint and into English has mistranslated the word "kill." The commandment is "Thou shalt not murder." All of us may be called upon to kill, just to protect an innocent or helpless person. Whether you believe or not is your choice, but you should really Know what it is you're rejecting before you do so.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #752067 -

Markos-
As long as you're bringing up the Septuagint...
Do you still believe In the Virgin Mary, even though the Septuagint scholars also mistranslated "Young Mother" into "Virgin"?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #752140 -

An interesting site:

http://bioweb.cs.earlham.edu/9-12/evolution/index.html


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Anno]
    #752208 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Sclorch]
    #752620 -

As John Shelby Spong has pointed out:
"The word 'virgin' did not enter the Book of Isaiah until it was translated into Greek some 500 years after Isaiah had written these words, and some 200 years before the birth of Jesus. The translators chose the Greek word parthenos to translate the Hebrew word almah. Almah means a young woman in Hebrew. It never means virgin; the Hebrew word betulah was used for that. However, in the Greek word parthenos the concepts of young woman and virgin were merged. So it was only in the word parthenos that the connotation of virgin entered the reading of Isaiah. That, however, did not deter Matthew, who built his whole narrative around this mistranslation. He probably never checked the original Hebrew." -'Liberating the Gospels' pp. 188-189

So, no, I do not believe in the Virgin Birth, or the Immaculate Conception of Mary herself. However, I do understand as a student of religions that many historical persons are written about in like ways. Astronomical anomalies, parthenogenic births, lotus blossoms springing up from the first baby steps of an avatar, nimbuses and halos depicting divinity, etc. This is the language of myth that I often post. The fantastic depictions in the Bible are 'midrash' - an ancient story-telling technique intended to convey spiritual truths. Such writing was not intended to be taken as a modern journalistic reporter or a scientistic observation. There was no reporter at a mythic manger in Bethlehem [or Nazareth, depending on the account], taking notes. Neither was Mary [Miriam] interviewed years later about the details of her labor. Neither is there a specific reference to 3 magi, or their names or that they rode camels; yet who hasn't seen these artistic depictions at Christmas, and 'assumed' that this was history. I need to separate 'the wheat from the chaff,' and that means demythologizing the history.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #753094 -

Sounds like you've read some Joseph Campbell.

So, lemme get this straight.
You DO or DO NOT align yourself with the overall message (no matter how exaggerated it is) that the Bible offers?


just curious


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #753182 -

1. Some people grow to be tall, that doesn't mean that short people stop existing.

2. (speaking from damaged memory here) I understood that our DNA was something along the lines of 98% the same as certain primates.. a few changes in genetic code can make a big difference. There were examples of halfway evolved humans.. the remains of have been found, some family called leaky or something.. (hmmm) Perhaps the reason there aren't still monkey men around is because the off-shot monkies which evolved into humans had very fast mutating dna.. something about those few monkies made their children vary more and more quickly with each successive generation, and so the weaker(minded) more slowly evolving monkies were weeded out and we(humans) are what came out of the big pot of mutation and fighting and war and stuff.. or fuck for some reaon the text box keeps unhighlighting and its driving me nuts.

In a universe which (in my opinion) is infinitly expansive in all directions, and so should be filled infinitly with planets, Id say doing the math.. (infinity):(chance of life sparking) to be pretty easy to figure out.. There have been experiments conducted which tried to recreate the elements and conditions which were around "in the begining" the result was formation of VERY crude cell-like particles.

Anyways, Whatever.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Sclorch]
    #753296 -

I am a Jewish Christian. I was born to Jewish parents, was baptised July 1, 1976 in a Roman Catholic Church, and took a Master of Theological Studies degree from the United Methodist Seminary at Drew University.

My Christianity is clearly not mainstream, inasmuch as demythologizing the Bible is not too popular. Exactly four years to the day prior to my baptism, I took my first LSD trip on July 1, 1972. The four years in between were spent as a philosophy major and ardent seeker, and since LSD initiated my journey, I have endeavored to integrate those experiences into the faith that I first "grokked" on acid.

Christ is, for me, the perfection of human spiritual development, and since Eastern Orthodox Christian theology is the most mystical, and the most psychedelic, I agree with their doctrine of 'theosis,' which pretty much states that 'God became man so that man can become God.' Eastern Christianity's additional doctrine of 'The Uncreated Energy' is very 'Eastern' in flavor, and is helpful to a Westerner such as myself. Though well versed in major Buddhist and Hindu mystical traditions, I nevertheless am a Westerner, and must be true to who I am and where I actually come from. I have found contemplative practices in Eastern Christianity's Hesychastic tradition that are virtually indistinguishable from a Theravadin Buddhist practice that I know; and parallels both Kargyutpa Vajrayana Buddhist and certain Advaita Hindu traditions. Dorothy was right, it's all in my very back yard.

Yes, I've read Joseph Campbell and watched his interviews on PBS will Bill Moyers.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #754209 -

For Markthegnostic
have you read the "course in Miracles"
I have dabbled in all religions spuriously, I am by training, a scientist and surgeon
but for the spirit and hear, a philospher, thinker and one who ahs since 1994 found an unusual ability to have an "awarness"- i can elaborate later in PM's if you so desire
I would be interested in your views on this book
For me I believe it to transcend all religions and it is what I call "the book"
from a spiritual sense.
Thanks ahead of time

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: llib]
    #754311 -

I have heard of the book, but I have never read it or had its theme presented to me.
As to the notion of transcending all religions, there is Frithjof Schuon's 'The Transcendent Unity of Religions,' wherein world religions are likened to faces of a multi-faced mountain. At the base, where the faces are widest, the outer forms of each religion predominates (exoteric religion). As one climbs the mount, the differences begin to narrow and to look more similar (esoteric religion), until which time that they all converge at the singular Peak, which is the One Truth.

More abstractly still is 'The Problem of Pure Consciousness: Mysticism and Philosophy,' in which the current schools of constructivism, complete constructivism, incomplete constructivism and catalytic constructivism challenge the school of the Pure Consciousness Event (PCE). [Please bear with me]. The constructivist schools all insist upon some degree of mind set in the nature of mystical religious experience. Simply put, Christians have Christian experiences, Buddhists have Buddhist experiences, etc., based upon what each has brought to the experience in beliefs, images, culture, concepts, tradition, etc. The PCE school maintains the existence of a "wakeful contentless consciousness." If one believes that mystical religious experience is at the heart of all high religions, then it is in this ongoing debate as to whether the form of religious experience (indeed, of any experience) can be unmediated. Kant said that we can only know the 'phenomenal,' mediated by our minds and nervous systems, while the 'noumena,' the thing-in-itself cannot be known. On the other hand, clairvoyant, telepathic and precognitive phenomena are known without the mediation of sensory organs - reality to mind, so-to-speak.

The transcendence of religions all too frequently means a Nietzchean 'beyond good and evil' thing which usually is realized on the dark side, since absolute power corrupts absolutely. I rather the notion of Jesus the Christ, though being the fullness [Pleroma] of the Godhead, sought to empty Himself. Humility is the Way, not then the Will to Power - despite the 'fact' that one can transcend the opposites. I probably just rambled far from your simple question. Sorry about that. I receive PM's if you are so motivated, and respond (hopefully, more concisely).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #754576 -

The transcendence of religions all too frequently means a Nietzchean 'beyond good and evil' thing which usually is realized on the dark side, since absolute power corrupts absolutely.

This statement leads me to say two things...
1. "absolute power corrupts absolutely" is bullshit rhetoric
2. I don't think you've really understood Nietzsche


I rather the notion of Jesus the Christ, though being the fullness [Pleroma] of the Godhead, sought to empty Himself.

True, if I'm reading this correctly.
Could you elaborate?

Humility is the Way, not then the Will to Power - despite the 'fact' that one can transcend the opposites.

More elaboration necessary, it seems like you skipped a few steps and left us with a vague sentence.

It should be noted the Nietzsche DID NOT publish (could it be said he did not write it then?) his notes that became "The Will to Power"... his Nazi-loving bitch of a sister did. Also, although I haven't read it in awhile, I can't see how there is a conflict between humility and the concept of the will to power.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Sclorch]
    #755074 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #755109 -

Etiquette shouldn't matter here. I'll be nice to you offline.
The reality of my statements are numbed down by this interface, so I'm as brutal and unforgiving as possible. They're just words here. Here, I'm not really that bully from the playground shoving your face in the mud...

In the real world, I'm rarely as curt as I am here. In the real world, I can't even talk to most people about the things I get to talk about here... they just can't take it.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Jared]
    #755169 -

There have been experiments conducted which tried to recreate the elements and conditions which were around "in the begining" the result was formation of VERY crude cell-like particles.

If we are talking about the same experiment, amino acids were formed, but no cell-like structures.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Sclorch]
    #755230 -

The statement is not erroneous [i.e., "bullshit"]. The mind tends towards negatives in interpretation. In hypnosis practice, one knows and utilizes this tendency carefully. The subconscious does not grasp negations by way of negative words. For example, for preparation for childbirth, one wouldn't suggest "You will feel no pain." The subconscious hears "feel pain." One must suggest that "You may feel some discomfort, but gentle breathing will alleviate the discomfort." It hears, "feel some discomfort" [which is a tolerable and realistic suggestion, even if not pleasant] and end the patter with "alleviate discomfort." The second patter will be accepted because it is accurate and the subconscious is no fool. You will feel no pain [in childbirth] is an obvious lie.

OK. Now IF you can accept what I've said about the working of the mind to negativity, based on practical work with it, then make this leap. If one found themselves with total freedom to act, for good or evil, because there was no opposition, the 'natural' tendency is to act in a dictatorial way. People cannot help themselves for the most part. It requires the intervention of Transpersonal, indeed, Transcendental guidance to do what is compassionate and selfless in the face of overwhelmingly inflated selfhood.

The Will to Power, as read and absorbed not only by Nazis (which allegedly upset Nietzsche considerably) regardless of who made it available, was also adopted by the psychoanalyst Alfred Adler who designed a whole school of analysis around it - Individual Psychology - and broke from reud. Success vs. Failure, and "overcoming" are foundations of this school. It is the first school to minimize the power of the unconscious [id] in favor of the conscious ego. It is therby the father of existential schools of psychology. It is, phenomenologically, (and drawing on my own dissertation) attributable to the complex of motivation that has been symbolized by the 3rd or Manipura Chakra in Hindu Yoga [ Note: the Indo-European root Manipu- as in Manipu-late, or control, or to have power over].
Incidentally, in the classic literature (e.g., Woodruff's/Avalon's 'The Serpent Power,' the Manipura Chakra contains 3 swastikas. There is evidence that Hitler was familiar with this Aryan psychology, and may well have adopted the symbol from this center of which it is written, 'one can destroy the world with fire,' i.e., holocaust.

Humility crosses the great divide between the lower 3 centers in Yoga psychology; or as depicted in Greek mythology with centaurs and satyrs and neryids (mermaids), that below the heart center, we are animals living out the instictive life. The Heart becomes the emotional center and the central spiritual 'organ' of Realization. The motive of Compassion, or altruism is attributed to this center of motivation, and Compassion is expressed in acts of kindness, which often require giving at one's own expense, and with no thought of payment or return. It is giving freely, and may diminish one in goods or through exertion. In acting from this altruistic place, one must humble or diminish one's own ego in order to give to another. Perhaps money out of one's pocket, or food for oneself, or going out of your way, just because you see someone's need and there you are. The logic of the moment requires it, and your feelings about personal loss and gain [failure and success] do not enter into your decision. That is transcendence of one's ego - rising from power to compassion.

Humility [the seed syllable HUM is attributed to the Enlightened Heart Center in Tibetan Buddhism. It is the final syllable at the end of the Great Mantra OM MANI PADMA HUM - The Absolute is a Jewel in the Lotus of the Heart] is not 'weakness' or timidity. It is the result of giving up one's ego as the seat of power, and allowing Compassion to rule as King of one's being. For some of us, the dethroning of the ego and the 'enthronement' of a Transcendental or Divine 'King' in one's Heart - is the same as saying "I live, yet not I, Christ liveth in me."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #755535 -

I'd like to say I have a hard time with all of the current belief systems. Every one seems to have its flaws. Anyhow I was thinking about when Jesus died on the cross. When he died on the cross he paid for the sins of everyone he plans to save (past, present and future) correct?
If god knows what we are going to do in our future that would have to mean our lives are predetermined. So as soon as someone is born they are destined to either go to heaven or burn in hell. And there is nothing an individual can do to change that. Now what doesn't make sense to me here is why would god create someone who he plans not to save. And why would he make someone burn in hell for eternity because of there sins? which they have no control over to begin with because our lives our predecided. Maybe someone here can make some sense of this?


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A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move towards higher levels. -A. Einstein

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #755549 -

In reply to:
1. If humans are an evolved species that originated as monkeys, why are there still tons of monkeys?




We did not originate as monkeys, we originated as amino acids. Monkeys are just said to be our closest living ancestor. There are still tons of monkeys because their habitat provides them with everything they need. They don't compete with humans for the resources in their habitat (unless humans destroy it all to build coffee farms, in which case there will no longer be tons of monkeys.)

The evolutionary advances that separate us from apes made us more apt at living in open terrain than they are. Over time, those monkeys adventurous enough to strike out into the open to find food became biologically adapted to carrying out these tasks. Over even just a few generations (say 100 years), one would find that the families of monkeys that are thriving in open terrain are the ones that are: better at running, stand taller to see further, and have hands that can grab tools better. Repeat this process ten million times and you get something like us.

In reply to:
2. Why are there no monkeys even closely resembling humans? In other words, one would think that there would be some species in mid-evolution or at the cycle of almost human, having attributes that are almost identical to the human model. Yet there are none, despite dna comparisons and things here and there that are too vague too accept. I'm talking about blatant, obvious attributes.




Because when a group of apes evolves to a point where it closely resembles humans, then they are adapted to go after the same food sources as the humans are, and they are just no match for homo sapiens. Any species that is mostly human and still has a significant amount of 'monkeyness' will never be able to stand up to us violent sapiens.

And they have found many species of mid-level 'humans': homo erectus, homo habilis, etc. They actually found the earliest 'version' yet just a few weeks ago. The skull was on my newspapers front page. They will find more.

In reply to:

3. How do you explain the statistical possibility of an ecosystem with thousands of different species coexisting as long as we have, without Someone getting all of this started at some point? In other words, don't you agree that all of this is quite contrived and setup?




Oooh capital S on someone... First of all we have not co-existed long at all. Humans have been around for the most recent 4 million of about 18 billion years of total 'time.' It doesn't seem any more contrived or setup to me than spherical orbs of rock circling giant glowing orbs of gas. Life (or existence for that matter) is absolutely amazing and ultimately unexpainable. When you get humans trying to explain the wonders of the universe and wrap up the history of existence in a neat little package, you get what is called a religion. Extinct religions are called mythologies. I have no idea how anyone expects to find an explanation for the universe in terms that humans can possibly understand. 'God' is a neat and tidy, digestable (by humans of course) explanation for how all of 'this' started.

Statistics have nothing to do with it because nobody, especially not an earth-born statistician, using methods invented by humans, has any idea of the probability of spontanetous generation of life. We have not even a ballpark figure of how often chemicals in the right conditions can generate amino acids necessary for living things. I would suggest it is quite slim, but keep in mind that there are trillions of stars and planets, and if the conditions weren't right for spontaneous generation on this third planet from this tiny star, I'm sure it would happen elsewhere. Perhaps not for another billion years or so, but the universe is still young.

To me, NOTHING is more contrived than a religious explanation for life on earth. It is sooo forced and sooo inadequate I often wonder if people really do believe that stuff or if they're just taking Pascal's Wager.

Trust me, the theory of evolution makes sense but not if you've already decided on a mythology. Read Origin of Species, then read the Bible and make your decision.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #755607 -

In reply to:
The reason I say "never" is due to a conclusion that I have made, verified, reverified, and continue to reverify: That the Lord is indeed in existence, there is none beside Him, and that the Bible is truly a record of history as well as a clever document of instructions for living.
A lot of this comes down to one thing for me: What happens when I pray and afterwards. I keep validating my faith through logical proof, so I cannot believe otherwise. But again, food for thought is more than welcome and I value it more than I can say.
I just wanted you to hear my reasoning behind my stubborness.



The thing about religion is that it is self-sustaining. Just like organisms, religions are subject to survival of the fittest. The religions that have proven successful are ones that make it difficult or impossible to believe otherwise. Once a person believes in God, then for that person, God exists beyond any shadow of a doubt. You KNOW God exists. Just like you know the sky is blue. Cristianity has built-in evolutionary features that prevent believers from doubting. Christianity may not have survived the Renaissance if it weren't for the rabid enforcement of punishment upon those who strayed, or if Christian tenets did not explicitly prohibit the worship of other Gods under penalty of eternal anguish in Hell.

Anyway, I don't mean to demonize Chirstianity or Christians, I just wanted to say that after meditation, I feel as certain of my beliefs as any theist is about his. But I would never take it as proof of anything. That doesn't mean I think Christians are wasting their time praying at the ceiling, because they aren't; they are praying to God. Having said that, I have no personal belief in a God at all. This is possible because every organism exists only within its own reality. Your reality contains a real Biblical God as long as you believe it; mine does not.

This concept of 'personal realities' is explained much better in Aldous Huxley's Doors of Perception. A must read.

Anyway, cool thread thanks for starting it.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #755614 -

Also, snakes not only have pelvic bones, but little nubs where the legs once were. Why would God do that?


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: TeKHeAD009]
    #755638 -

In reply to:
I agree with you. I dont believe in evolution and I believe in God creating everything. But my grandmother - who is very religious - once said 'How long is a day to God? Maybe a day to him is a billion years to us.' That would make 7 days 7 billion years. Humans did not come from monkeys! Darwin is a schmuck and I heard once he denounced his ideas before dieing. Your thoughts?



Darwin is not a schmuck. He REnouced his ideas to appease those who threatened him into it. The church has been doing that for centuries. If you told somebody you were an atheist in medieval England they would torture and kill you.
Just out of curiousity, do you believe everything that you "heard once?"


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: zeronio]
    #755674 -

In reply to:
One problem of evolution theory is how did the first life form begin.
I had an oportunity to talk with Jehovas witnesses about it. This was their argument: "If you put wood and nails in a washing machine and start it, is it possible that a chair will come out?".
It is possible. The probabilty is very low but it is not 0! You just have to repeat the experiment for many many times.




I have done that and gotten a chair to come out, many times. There was even a single-celled organism sitting on it once.

But seriously though, if you had trillions of planets filled with washing machines of all types, which are in turn filled with nails and wood of all types, and had them all running perpetually for billions of years, I'd call you a liar if you DIDN'T end up with at least a few chairs. Of course some chairs wouldn't survive being sat on, but some would, one of which is called homo sapien and it's right here on earth. It only seems unlikely if you don't realize quite how big a number of washing machines that is.

Of course the argument is flawed because few washing machines can ever produce enough force to drive a nail into wood, but it's a stupid analogy anyway. I much prefer the monkeys at the typewriters writing Shakespeare.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #755711 -

If you love reading, have I got a book for you. All of you, for that matter. It is one of the few non-fiction books that changed my life. Chronology of Science and Discovery by Isaac Asimov. All it is is a chronological description of everything that humans have discovered and created since bipediality. Reading the chain of events across thousands of years that made humans what we are today in chronological order is absolutely mind-blowing. The world is a different place since I've read it. There are no pro- or anti-religious leanings, it is all objective. Unbelievable book.

And another book: (well essay, really) The Doors of Perception by Aldous Huxley. An absolute must-read for anyone who uses psychedelic drugs. It is available in HTML format all over the web; just search for it.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #755787 -

No I dont believe everything I 'heard once'. That is why I put the "I once heard" in their cause thats what I did - Heard it. I dont believe it, I heard it. I added it to see what other peoples feedback about that was. Such as yours. I never thought of that - perhaps he was pressured into denouncing his ideas by christians. Now thats something I 'heard' as well. However, I dont believe either until further sources of information are made avaiable to me.


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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #755829 -

Anyhow, Darwin lived from 1809-1882. He was far from being tortured in England for his views that disagreed with Christianity.

Edited by TeKHeAD009 (07/18/02 08:40 AM)

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: TeKHeAD009]
    #755917 -

Anyhow, Darwin lived from 1809-1882. He was far from being tortured in England for his views that disagreed with Christianity.

I never said Darwin was tortured by Christians. I just said he was threatened by people who did not like what his views implied, much in the same way that medieval european clergies did to atheists. That's all I meant.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #756448 -

Evolution is a faith too.

Atheists often argue and try contradicting Christianity. They seem to forget there are two more mass faiths that link back to Abraham. One of them has a direct relation with Christianity, the other is excluded from Judeo-Christian tradition but at the same time preaches that all Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike are worthy of Paradise as long as they have faith. God can't be proven or disproven so it's useless to argue about it. Atheists argue against religion based on theories that are supposed to contradict Christiantiy (I don't know, does it? In the 130 years of Darwinism, why hasn't it been proven yet?) while monotheists argue that they have experienced God, witnessed many miracles that occured since conversion/finding God. See how this arguement is a dead end? An atheist can't change a Muslim/Jew/Christian, and a Muslim/Jew/Christian can't change an atheist. The world is ultimately divided up in two with people who believe in God, and people who do not believe in God. This feud existed for centuries. If evolution was directly proven, religion wouldn't have such a great influence on the world. If religion was directly proven, almost everyone would be a member of a monotheist faith. And from the believer's point of view, you have to wonder what allows evolution and God Himself not to be directly proven by man. This is one factor why billions of people have faith. Myself? I believe in God. I don't know why, I just do. To stereotype that only weak minded and stupid people "find God" is absurd. Just as reason and logic leads to people not believing in God, it's also reason and logic that leads people to believe in Him.

From my perspective (and others on this board) my faith isn't blind, otherwise I wouldn't believe in it. When you're a Christian, Jew, or a Muslim and you ingest a psychedelic, your "belief of faith" suddenly becomes "reality of faith".... I can't really describe experience, so it's useless to argue it.

Zahid,
the Sufi


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Edited by Zahid (07/18/02 01:34 PM)

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Zahid]
    #756523 -

Evolution is a faith too.

I dont think so.

This is from Mirriam-Webster Dictionary:

1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no evidence(2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

None of this applies to my belief in evolution. I believe it because the evidence is overwhelming, and because I had no traditional religious doctrine to contradict it.


God can't be proven or disproven so it's useless to argue about it. Atheists argue against religion based on theories that are supposed to contradict Christiantiy (I don't know, does it? In the 130 years of Darwinism, why hasn't it been proven yet?)

Proven? Nothing can be truly proven. You can just consider the facts that you do have and make a decision. That's the only way anyone can say they 'know 'anything. Nobody has 'proven' to me that the Atlantic ocean exists. Never been there.

while monotheists argue that they have experienced God, witnessed many miracles that occured since conversion/finding God. See how this arguement is a dead end? An atheist can't change a Muslim/Jew/Christian, and a Muslim/Jew/Christian can't change an atheist.


I disagree; religion wouldn't exist if you couldn't change people's beliefs. And I know atheists that weren't always. However I certainly didn't post on this thread with the hopes of 'converting' anyone. I'm just having fun.

The world is ultimately divided up in two with people who believe in God, and people who do not believe in God.


You could divide it that way, if it was supposed to serve some purpose. You can also divide the world into innie belly buttons and outties.


This feud existed for centuries. If evolution was directly proven, religion wouldn't have such a great influence on the world.


I think the facts are staring everyone in the face and suggesting, quite convincingly, that our past is something like Charles Darwin had figured. I think it makes more sense than anything else. If a person's religious community and doctrine is more convincing than what they know about evolution, of course they will have faith in God.


If religion was directly proven, almost everyone would be a member of a monotheist faith. And from the believer's point of view, you have to wonder what allows evolution and God Himself not to be directly proven by man.


I don't have to wonder at all. How could we directly prove either of those things? You can't prove all the religions at once because there are too many contradictions. You can't even prove Christianity because of its own internal contradictions. I think religion has an insidious tendency to give man too much credit. Man created all scripture in his own image because he loves himself so much.

This is one factor why billions of people have faith. Myself? I believe in God. I don't know why, I just do.

I'm pretty sure you do know why you believe in God. If religion was always a part of your life, then that is why. If someone 'changed you' halfway through your life then that is why.


To stereotype that only weak minded and stupid people "find God" is absurd. Just as reason and logic leads to people not believing in God, it's also reason and logic that leads people to believe in Him.

I agree that is absurd. If someone has been taught something their whole life then they have every reason to believe it. And you're exactly right about the reason and logic. I'm sure every one's own beliefs make sense to themselves. And that's all that matters.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS *DELETED* [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #756832 -

Post deleted by PurpleSpidereye


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...One voice...

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Swami]
    #757011 -

the experiment we leanred about in biology said that very crude cell like structures were formed, there were photos of them compared to real cells.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: PurpleSpidereye]
    #757657 -

Damn, I thought Zahid had left us for good...

CyberChump- thanks for saving this thread. It was getting extremely stale.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Nomad]
    #757981 -

The branch of science which is closest to actually producing a working cell is not chemistry, it is nanotechnology. Just half a year ago nanotechnologists built a transport mechanism for microscopic devices, somewhat similar to the flagellum of bacteria. Did you check out the link? The foundations of life are shaky, and I'm not making this up. Francis Crick, the scientist who discovered DNA, believes that aliens have seeded live on earth.

ive been thinking along these lines for the past few months, just sort of staring off into space thinking what if, as we all do.
did anyone else here read/hear about bacteria found in ancient glacial ice in antarctica, ice that has been frozen for several million years, which they thawed out, and the bacteria started growing again? adds weight to the idea that life can travel through space, in rocks or whatever, lying dormant until it reaches somewhere it can grow again.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Nomad]
    #757994 -

A mutation with no benefit would not stick around long enough for another mutation to happen

one funny thing about genes is that they do not seem to be responsible for only one particular physical or behavioural trait. on a discovery channel thingo recently about this very topic they were talking about fruit flies, which are apparently the organism most studied by geneticists to date. they noticed that sometimes fruit flies were born with white eyes instead of red ones (or maybe it was red eyes instead of black ones, but thats not so important), and then after a while they narrowed down which chromosome was responsible for the red eye/white eye trait, and so they were able to breed little fruit flies deliberately with white eyes. crazily though these white eyed fruit flies acted really strangely! they followed each other round in big long chains, one behind the other following a leader who wasnt going anywhere in particular and would latch onto another chain of flies or even onto the back end of its own chain so theyd all be walking around in circles instead of flying all over the place like the normal flies. and this came from the `switching off` of just one chromosome....so it seems that one mutation on the genetic level might actually cause several mutations on the physical and behavioural level, thus a mutation benefical to survival might also result in a completely useless bulge on the head, and who knows another beneficial mutation might result in that bulge becoming fluorescent while having some other completely useless side effect....etc.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #758020 -

your translation of the tibetan mantra is by far the best i have ever heard.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Traveller]
    #758120 -

Thank you. It is derived conceptually rather than literally from Lama Anagarika Govinda's 'Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism.' Unlike the usual 'Hail to the Jewel in the Lotus,' my rendering describes the 'Descent Towards Realization' that follows the 'Ascent Towards Unification' wherein one has the experience of Infinity, Light, etc. symbolized by OM. This process (which parallels the Kundalini experience in Hindu Yoga) is only the first half of the whole process in which the Absolute experienced at the Crown Center [OM] descends through the Throat Center [AH], and comes to indwell the Heart Center [HUM] on the human plane of Realization. There it becomes the Diamond Vehicle [Vajrayana] - the Jewel in the Lotus of the Heart.

By parallel, note the Catholic images of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, encircled by the Crown of Thorns. The Crown has descended to encircle the Heart Center. Compassion is embraced by Wisdom (as in the cosmic copulating couple in the Tibetan Yab-Yum); the Infinite has descended into the finite - Incarnation - in the flesh of the HUMan Heart.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Sclorch]
    #758141 -

In reply to:
Damn, I thought Zahid had left us for good...

CyberChump- thanks for saving this thread. It was getting extremely stale.


Yes I sensed the staleness and came with a fresh dose of controversy. Let's keep this thread going until the apocalypse starts.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #758537 -

Dude, there's no reason to get all spiritual and crap.

Also, your hair is freakin' me out. Buy a comb.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
    #758712 -

In reply to:

Dude, there's no reason to get all spiritual and crap.

Also, your hair is freakin' me out. Buy a comb.



Yeah what was I thinking getting spiritual.. wrong forum for that, fuck...
And yeah my hair freaks me out too sometimes.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #759214 -

CyberChump...

My parents brought me to church until I was four, but stopped when I showed no interest and only caused trouble. I considered myself an atheist for a long time, and I absolulately hated Christianity when I got into Manson NIN and other music a few years ago. What brought me into religion is a different story.

Long time child hood friend of mine is a Christian (In fact he's in a Chrisitian rock band).. so are his siblings and parents Christian. His dad is completely blind, I didn't know why for the longest time. My friend told me he tried shooting himself in the head when he was 19.. when he survived, yet without vision, he married and became a Christian. My friend never preached Chrisitianity to me throughout the years knowing him, since he sensed I wasn't going to convert.. this story probably doesn't mean much to you.. but it does for me. After this I left Chrisitianity alone and refrained from bashing it because I realized how important it was to alot of people.

Then, when I was 17 I began reading alot about Islam, and eventually became a Muslim. I wasn't all to aware of Islam until bin Laden blew up the American embassies and made a reference "God willing" in his fatwa... (mind you in 1998 I thought Islam was a multi-deity religion like Hinduism or something)...after that I educated myself about the religion and fell in love with it. I don't have a religious background.. my friends have little interest in religion and one of them gets extremely pissed off if I even utter God's name. So to say the least, I came to Islam on my own- and it was best choice I ever made because I can't remember when I felt this much at peace.

I know there is alot of evidence that points to evolution, but also understand religion (more specific, Islam) is not very clear on the subject of the creation of humans/animals. In fact, within the ummah (the world wide community of Muslims) there is alot of debate between muslims who believe evolution took place, and muslims who don't believe in evolution. Islam (I don't know about Judeo-Christian tradition, I know nothing about Judaism and little about Christianity) is vague on the subject.. the Qur'aan does talk of Adam and Eve, but also talks about "All living things evolving from water"...Islam even speaks of animals before humans, along with life forms in besides the humans (aliens) who recieved messengers from God...


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Edited by Zahid (07/19/02 12:36 PM)

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #759619 -

In reply to:
Yeah what was I thinking getting spiritual.. wrong forum for that, fuck...
And yeah my hair freaks me out too sometimes.



Ok, now what do we do?

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
    #761301 -

In reply to:
Ok, now what do we do?



Let's play checkers.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #761362 -

Second one from my left front rank moves one space to the right.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
    #761393 -

so yeah, i'm just jumping in the end here, but has anyone mentioned that the catholic church fully supports the idea of evolution?...more of a "God set it in motion": type of thing. much like islam.


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Zahid]
    #761425 -

(I don't know, does it? In the 130 years of Darwinism, why hasn't it been proven yet?)

how can you prove something that takes thousands or millions of years to take place? it's just that theologist and philosophers aren't dumb shits. and neither are scientists. can't we all just get along? how about this. check out a book called, "the science of God" by gerald schroeder. or his other book, "genesis and the big bang" great stuff man, and in my personal and humble opinion, it lays the creationist/evolutionist arguement to rest by proving both sides right. seriously check it out. it blows the mind man.


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #761429 -

I would reccomend both books as well. Very interesting reading.

Nice suggestion.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ArisEve]
    #762033 -

LOVE LoVe Evol Huh maybe there's a pattern here?


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Well...Maybe just a little.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #762102 -

so yeah, i'm just jumping in the end here, but has anyone mentioned that the catholic church fully supports the idea of evolution?...more of a "God set it in motion": type of thing. much like islam.

That hasn't always been true. It was actually fairly recently that the Catholic Church decided they believe in evolution. I wonder if they will keep making concessions until they are all existentialist atheists.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: ]
    #763180 -

you've read them both? cool, you're the first one i've met who's actually read them.


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #763658 -

Yes, I actually knew one of Schroeder friends for a time. Schroeder is a very creative and intelligent man.

Cheers,

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: Zahid]
    #763661 -

I just wanted you to know that while I find your posts to be well thought-out and articulate I am highly offended at your new sig line. It is written in a language I do not speak and the sight of what appears to be an armed Muslim riding a horse on some kind of a violent mission is disconcerting. And so are the words that accompany it.

But then again, you probably knew that.

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: World Spirit]
    #763707 -

"Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a fossil sequence, the list of species represented changes through time. Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the practice of squeezing one's eyes shut and wailing 'does not!'. "


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Tru dat!

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Re: The Idea of Evolution is BS [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #764270 -

the catholic church of concessions huh chump?

actually, the way i see it is that when evolution was first thought out, we didn't support it, because we can't just jump up and believe everything that comes along, we have to make sure it's not a passing trend. we try to side with the logical side of science, and some theories take generations to truley unfold. but after time has passed, and after much more evidence has been given, THEN we say, "okay, now that you've proved it, we believe it."
not really a concession as much as being cautious in my mind. but then in my mind strange things happen...especially on drugs...but that's another story.
not always, but most times...regardless of what propaganda may say, the church just takes no stance at all until one side of an arguement is proved. we realize science needs to be left to the scientists, now if only scientists, would leave religion to us. then we could just come together and work together and make everything in the known universe (be it physical or not) understood. then there would be no problems. unfortunenatly, that's a long way off.


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Peace and Love to all!

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